Post: #1

Black Coach = XXX

Zombies x30 + FC = XXX

Skeletons x33 + FC = XXX

Ghouls x 25 + Ghast = XXX

Lvl 2 Necro + vDMbook = XXX

Vampire + HA + Additional HW + Seed of Rebirth = XXX

Total = 997

Vs

Bloodletters x26 +Herald

Pinkies x10 +Herald

Demonettes x10

Flamers x3

Pts ~ 1k

Well; That went about as poorly as possible, considering that I managed to kill only his Demonettes (As far as VP were concerned) whilst loosing everything in my army buuttt, the last of the skeletons.

Really quite brutal =/ I ended up setting my BC in a place I think was the worst part (Due to a river, and wanting to avoid difficult terrain test). The Zombies+Necro pretty much had a sissy slap-fight with the Pinkies+herald to the far left of the board, then the rest of my stuff was mid/right.

His was (From my perspective) Far left Pinkies, Flamers mid/left-ish, Bloodletters Dead middle of the major choke point, then Demonettes to the right flank (Through a forest).

He advanced everything of his pretty much forward, I got my Ghouls/BC forward, and to the slight right skeles and Vamp. Necro+Zombies slugged along at 4" every turn trying to get to the Pinkies (They eventually got there, with some VDM help); Skele's fought & obliterated Demonettes in the 2nd/3rd turn (One left to tie them up 3rd turn ) and the ghouls ended up trying to back away slowly from the Bloodletters after their first failed charge. I decided to completely try and get the BC around to the right of the board (A tower was in the way) and so two turns was spent trying to not just slam straight into the Bloodletters.

The ghouls got engaged in the 3rd turn, with skeles mopping up, and BC getting about as far as them (Not too far) around the right flank. 3 rounds (2 turns) later the Ghouls were no more, and my skeles/BC were about to cross the Bloodletters front arc of charge range, so I said what ever and charged him with the BC (Skeles were a turn away). Surprisingly it held for almost four full rounds of combat vs the Bloodletters before succumbing to them, and when the Skele/Vamp got to the fight, I challenged the Herald to combat with vamp (I wanted an epic end game duel, right?) Turns out it wasn't so epic with his 5 attacks hitting 2, and wounding once, where as the Herald had no problems dispatching a Hero choice vamp.

A bit of crumble, and a round of bad CR, and basically everything was mopped up at that point with just one turn left for him to play out (I conceded the game at this point). Oh and the Zombies eventually got to the Pinkies, plus Invocationed 14 extra zombies, before they Black-sun'd me killing 17 in one go. Then combat, which is never in zombies favor, though ranks tried to help, I couldn't punch through their ward (With Herald no less) or get CR enough to Unstable them.


Most importantly, lesson time!

Considering how well the BC ended up fairing against the Bloodletters, perhaps I should have kept it with the ghouls, charging first for the Impact hits. (Granted it killed a full 7 when I charged the first time, which was really helpful). This could have got past the hatred for the ghouls, and allowed them a bit more ease for CR vs the Blood letters. I found he had a really hard time fighting the BC, even with such a strong unit.

Btw, on the BC, how well does Difficult terrain test go, is it ok to risk it? I feel the biggest failure was the set up of the BC.

Zombies .. I .. that was a terrible thing I did (Though very amusing, and the wizard duel between them on top of it was also back-and-forth, probably the most fun part of the match). They were closed from the rest of the army, and really didn't do much of anything. Plus the necro was slaved to them, trying to IoN for tons more (I hit the spell just twice, for full 14 zombies ;D).

I hear it just isn't good to stick multiple units into combat together. I get the feeling this is true. Unless the complete decimation of the opposing unit is assured, is the risk for CR knocking off multiple units too high? Especially with Zombie/Skele, which are quite apt at dragging down a combat, far more than helping the CR.

Anyways, I dunno, just a reflection I guess; Hope it isn't terribly hard to read (not a very nice format, more like raw thoughs poured out).

Comments as always appreciated, and yeah I know it was terrible, but I am a terrible player. Perhaps I'll get better (Most likely not), but in the mean time, any constructive conversations is great I suppose ;D

Post: #2

You are right about multiple combats, especially with weak core units. Unless you know you can generate enough CR, the amount of zombies / skellies that will generally get killed can make a real mess when it comes to crumbling. The problem is that if you loose 10 Zombies via crumbling - so what? But 10 wounds on Black Knights are something even more expensive can hurt.

So always be careful about committing extra units to such combats.

Black Coach is a bit hit or miss. Fully powered up it can be nasty, but not powered up and it doesn't cut the mustard in a slog out. Impact hits are good, but try not get it involved in prolonged combats where its lack of static CR and limited attacking power can hurt.

In previous editions it was always felt that VC suffered at 1000pt battles, due to our expensive characters. Did you feel this was the case?

Post: #3

Yep, I lost my 3rd match with the new book because of multiple units in 1 combat. My zombies basically lost me the entire battle, my vamp + black knights (who had rear charged) and my varghulf (flanking)and master necro hiding in teh zombies. Lost combat, Popped all 3 of my units at once, no other characters. Crumble. Vargheists charge in and fight to the death to end the game.

Never get your hammers mixed up in a combat with your "sponges". Now, there are nice anvils in our army, but zombies and skeletons fall under the "sponge" category rather than the "anvil" category.

Post: #4

(01-24-2012 11:51 PM)Disciple of Nagash Wrote:  Black Coach is a bit hit or miss. Fully powered up it can be nasty, but not powered up and it doesn't cut the mustard in a slog out. Impact hits are good, but try not get it involved in prolonged combats where its lack of static CR and limited attacking power can hurt.

In previous editions it was always felt that VC suffered at 1000pt battles, due to our expensive characters. Did you feel this was the case?

Really? I feel like it's just a strong include with it's Toughness and Armor/Wards. It seems quite hardy, though over-all I am having a hard time trying to grasp the tactics I need to be employing. It's detrimental to charge very powerful units in with weaker ones, so I don't quite get where the BC goes? It can't combat a whole infantry alone, does it simply move along with your Special Hammer units to pound something hard? It seems a waste to throw it into a fight with a solid Rank&File unit if your core is going to drag it down. Seems odd, though I still like it a lot.

You know, I didn't feel the pinch the way I might normally. Part of the reason being that I was terrified to have characters against the Daemons all together. His block of Blood-letters could just KB him, seems poor to take a combat lord against such a strong item I guess the correct course of action then would be to use my geared up combat hero to throw against his weaker units, which may demand he get more mobility, or just out deploy him (It would make sense to me to throw the 'General' model to a flank away from the blood-letters since I needn't march to him, he already wants to get on me! Then take the speedier flank&Hero into anything he can get his hands on, yes?)

Although I am sure vs my friends Lizardmen I will be hurting to find the right balance of hero choice soon, as well when we get into Lord choices (1500-2000?) it'll be difficult squeeze, where I assume they will have it easier to get them into the right range.

(01-25-2012 08:58 PM)drmooreflava Wrote:  Never get your hammers mixed up in a combat with your "sponges". Now, there are nice anvils in our army, but zombies and skeletons fall under the "sponge" category rather than the "anvil" category.

You know, let's just say I've never played Warhammer before; What exactly are the more Anvil units for VC? I take it most people use GG (Or are they a Hammer?) but I dunno, is it just for the T? Their save honestly seems weak, especially given that most of the time people take them with GWs, which means they are only in HA, right?

I just got a Mortis Engine today (Need to do a bit of putting together ) but I really feel inclined to lean towards the Ghouls, and or Crypt Horrors as the Solid units in my army. Skeletons/Zombies are to be strictly 'Hold them up' Units, right?

Also I appreciate the help, especially since I'm sure so many people would prefer not read such a horrendous battle report xP

Post: #5

(01-26-2012 09:14 AM)Tawg Wrote:  

(01-24-2012 11:51 PM)Disciple of Nagash Wrote:  Black Coach is a bit hit or miss. Fully powered up it can be nasty, but not powered up and it doesn't cut the mustard in a slog out. Impact hits are good, but try not get it involved in prolonged combats where its lack of static CR and limited attacking power can hurt.

In previous editions it was always felt that VC suffered at 1000pt battles, due to our expensive characters. Did you feel this was the case?

Really? I feel like it's just a strong include with it's Toughness and Armor/Wards. It seems quite hardy, though over-all I am having a hard time trying to grasp the tactics I need to be employing. It's detrimental to charge very powerful units in with weaker ones, so I don't quite get where the BC goes? It can't combat a whole infantry alone, does it simply move along with your Special Hammer units to pound something hard? It seems a waste to throw it into a fight with a solid Rank&File unit if your core is going to drag it down. Seems odd, though I still like it a lot.

You know, I didn't feel the pinch the way I might normally. Part of the reason being that I was terrified to have characters against the Daemons all together. His block of Blood-letters could just KB him, seems poor to take a combat lord against such a strong item I guess the correct course of action then would be to use my geared up combat hero to throw against his weaker units, which may demand he get more mobility, or just out deploy him (It would make sense to me to throw the 'General' model to a flank away from the blood-letters since I needn't march to him, he already wants to get on me! Then take the speedier flank&Hero into anything he can get his hands on, yes?)

Although I am sure vs my friends Lizardmen I will be hurting to find the right balance of hero choice soon, as well when we get into Lord choices (1500-2000?) it'll be difficult squeeze, where I assume they will have it easier to get them into the right range.

(01-25-2012 08:58 PM)drmooreflava Wrote:  Never get your hammers mixed up in a combat with your "sponges". Now, there are nice anvils in our army, but zombies and skeletons fall under the "sponge" category rather than the "anvil" category.

You know, let's just say I've never played Warhammer before; What exactly are the more Anvil units for VC? I take it most people use GG (Or are they a Hammer?) but I dunno, is it just for the T? Their save honestly seems weak, especially given that most of the time people take them with GWs, which means they are only in HA, right?

I just got a Mortis Engine today (Need to do a bit of putting together ) but I really feel inclined to lean towards the Ghouls, and or Crypt Horrors as the Solid units in my army. Skeletons/Zombies are to be strictly 'Hold them up' Units, right?

Also I appreciate the help, especially since I'm sure so many people would prefer not read such a horrendous battle report xP

You're on the right track. Crypt horrors are probly our most 'tanky' anvil unit. Then GG, though, like you mentioned poor armor save, regardless if you give them shields, a 4+ and 6+ parry is laughable when a high str enemy charges you.

On the trail of anvils we have to recognize that we don't really have any awesome ones, because of instability. But our magic is used to supplement these large amounts of casualties we take.

I might sound crazy but some ethereal units are nice anvil/tarpits to hold enemies that can't damage them. (this strategy doesn't work vs demons because of their magic attacks)

I'd say ghouls are mediocre at being an anvil and at being a hammer. I like ghouls because they can function on their own and don't need support to cause casualties in combat.

I'd just suggest letting your core sit there and tie their big units up as long as they can, while you take your big stuff and clean the rest of the table. Maybe engaging with their large units after the rest is said and done.

With the way instability works, supporting weaker units is more hurtful than beneficial. I'd say take a cruel look at your army. After all they are already dead. And finally conclude that only your general/other magic users and your strongest unit (Knights or crypt horrors w/e) need to be away from this sink hole of 'spongey instability' and be looked after with care. I'd say everything except for the unit you build your army around is expendable. So don't feel bad when your horde of 75zombies gets rolled by 2 units charging them, just let them die and don't add anymore units to the casualties.