Post: #1

So, a pretty standard list. Put the Earthing rod on my lord to protect my investment. Dont want him blowing up in turn 1. Scroll went on the necro, a nice support caster should my lord fluke his rolls.

Three different rares with different jobs. Will take flanks when my main line reaches combat.

My brother uses lists with equal power level so no need to feel sorry for him . Just finished painting this army so I look forward to start playing with it.

I choose the forbidden lore over the extra level because I felt that having all the spells is very important.

Post: #2

Hi Michael,

How's life with the VCs??

Since our '2400/2500' point list building thread, I have been playing many 2400/2500 games. Each with roughly the same base-list, changing the last 200/300 points.

My comments to your list are based on my own experience:

Lord
I understand where the earthing rod is comming from. From the 8 games I lost with my VC, 6 blow-ups due to a miscast were to blame. It made me re-consider my casting strategy, rolling only 2 dice for spells 0-4 and 3 dice for spells 5&6. The downside from this rod is that you cannot have the Periapt and Charmed Shield as well on your lord. I prefer these items over the earthing rod myself, but it's just a personal taste.
You have taken forbidden-lore over L4 upgrade. Please remember that your triple your chances on 'not-cast' (not meeting casting value) when 2-diceing 7+ spells and double the chances not cast when 2idiceing 8+ spells. Although, chances are low, it will happen way more often compared to being a L4. Chances of not getting VDM are small (9%, about 1 in 11 games) and I have changed to prefer to take L4 over L3 & Forbidden lore.

You will do fine the mayority off the time untill you face other VC or Dark_Elves.

Wight King:
I prefer NOT to have a great weapon. The unit doesn't need it and it increases your survivability. It saves points as well.

Necromancer:
Do you really need Both ION and VDM? I ussually have only the VDM spell, unless I have the points to spare.
I also like give him the IronCuse icon and/or DragonbaneGem* (when not on a supporting vampire) to protect the skellies.

Core Ghouls:
I prefer my ghouls minimum unit size of 24. Why not have 30 & 24 instead of 35 & 20?
When you take skellies, why not give the standard-bearer either the banner of Swiftness (Increase the move before Helm/VDM range, move an additional inch sideways/backwards due to rounding up of m5) or the Lichebone pennant (to increase the wardsave on your lord to sniper spells to a 3+)? I’d also prefer 21 or 22 skellies over 20. the one or two additional skellies do make a difference.

Wraiths:
I have not seen many situations where starting with 4 wraiths would make a big difference compared to 5. According to me, 4x3 S5 attacks should be enough in CC. If you want a 5th, use the upgrade for banshee (nice against Daemons). I know it won’t fit within 25% of 2500 and would only work if you do not have the vargulf.

Vargulf:
Nothing wrong with him, but in my last 10 games, I have dropped this Gulf in favour of a Vampire hero.
The hero was used to be deployed inside my GG. These guys tend to break and pursue everything they face in CC, moving outside vampire-rule range In order to be able to march (vampire rule) its good to have this guy in the unit. I equipped him the following:
Forbidden Lore (light, vs other VC and daemons), Black Periapt, Flayed Hauberk, Biting Blade, Dragon Bane Gem (especially challenge flaming Khorne heralds & Greater daemons etc). Because the Periapt is on the Vampire, my lord had an 20point Arcane item slot available. I used the Crimson Gem, which is nice in combination with the Summon Horde spell (using the last 2 dice from pool and 1 crimson dice, the first wound to be healed is on the lord).

So summarizing what I would do:
· Change items on Lord
· No GW on Wight King:
· Add IronCuse icon of Necro:
· Additonal vampire character instead of Vargulf:
· Change ghouls size to 24 & 30
· Add magic banner in skellies, and + 2 skellies to unit size
· Drop Vargulf
· Drop 1 wraith (in order to make it all fit)

There is points which you can spent on 3 additional ghouls of skellies, or 1 GG + 1 Skellie.

Please refrain from posting individual model, unit, and item costs in accordance with the forum rules regarding army lists found here.

~ Bishop

Post: #3

Thank you for the great feedback! Highly appreciated . You make some very valid points. I can deffinetly make some of the suggested changes. Giving the necro the ironcurse icon, giving skellies the banner and a couple of extra bodies and dropping the GW on the wight king, for starters. I´ll try the varghulf (mainly because I have two of them painted) and the 5th wraith before I´ll sack them. I´ll also be keeping the earthing rod until I see how it goes, same goes for the f. lore vs extra level on the lord.

Nice build on the hero vamp there. Just that it makes the GG an even bigger target, with two expensive characters in there.

I havent played lots lately and the games I´ve played has been 2k, lost most of them. I´ll test the list (with some modifications) on tuesday and report back.

Post: #4

@Malus-You may want to watch posting negative points values...Bishop has been on to people lately for posting exact values;just a heads up.
On topic-5 wraith's gives you the ability to lose one on the way in and still do well.
I never leave home w/o atleast one VG,preferably two.It's great at soloing chumps and warmachines,it also makes a good chariot to support your line.I run my VG behind my wraiths when I field them.The wraiths block the VG and the VG allows them to march.
I have to disagree about the GW as well,enemy char will likely have higher initiative and be well armored.If you are swinging last anyway = swing harder.
I'm not a big fan of the coach in conjuntion with a caster lord.I'd drop the coach and add another VG...OR, and this is probably meaner 3-4 more wraiths(in the same unit).

Post: #5

Some of those for sure were in violation of the rules! Some were perhaps borderline. However, I have removed them all just to be safe.

Please refrain from posting individual model, unit, and item costs in accordance with the forum rules regarding army lists found here.

~ Bishop

Post: #6

I like your list Mikael. I am all into ETC list building so my list looks a bit like this but no Drakenhoff banner, and two Black Coaches for rare. I also have the hellsteed vamp as I think its good against many opponents and gives a nice threat range where they cant go with their support units for fear of my vampire charging out.

Post: #7

(03-17-2011 06:52 PM)Mikael.K Wrote:  I´ll try the varghulf (mainly because I have two of them painted) and the 5th wraith before I´ll sack them.
…
Nice build on the hero vamp there.

The Vargulf is really a legit addition to your army; it has it’s strengths and weaknesses but overall it will do fine. One-on-One I even think the Vargulf is better then the vampire but this excludes the fact that when the vampire is alive, we always have the chance to march our GG when it has moved (charged/pursued) outside vampire lord range

The main reason to include the vampire was to deal with characters/models with flaming attacks inside enemy units threatening my GG. The character could cause flaming wounds on my GG negating all the regen for wounds caused by the rest of the unit. When I’m able to challenge this character with my vampire, using the 2+ As and 2+ ward vs flaming to not get any wounds, my GG have a higher survivability against the unit (for example a flaming herald of khorne inside blood letters).

The vamp was clearly build against to support the GG and add some punch vs Daemons (using the forbidden lore of Light). When I finally faced daemons at the GT, the flaming thirster caused 4 wounds on my herald, of which I rolled two 1’s to save. If only I could have saved one, I would have been able to crumble the big nasty on combat res the turn after. When you are not taking this vampire, you could have the Dragon Bane gem on your scroll Necro. Whenever there’s a thirster charging into your skellies, you can challenge and try to save it all on the ward. I recommend you try to find out whether he has flaming attacks by using your champion though ;-)

(03-17-2011 06:52 PM)Mikael.K Wrote:  I´ll also be keeping the earthing rod until I see how it goes, same goes for the f. lore vs extra level on the lord.

I’m curious as well how the lord set-up will work for you!

When you play with your L3 Forbidden Lore Lord, could you do yourself a favour? Roll 4 dice at the start of battle, as if you were generating spells as normal. Try to find out how many spells you are actually using during the battle which you wouldn’t have generated yourself. In the end, this advantage of having all spells, should outweigh the fact to be ‘only’ L3.

I have played about 45 games in the last 6/7 months now, roughly the first half with Forbidden Lore L3, and the second half with L4. I realised a L4 gets spells through better then the L3, especially when you try to get those Dances off and when you ‘roll average’ for the casting values of your spells.

After all these words why I prefer L4 over L3, I will now tell you I will play the next couple of games with a L3 hybrid, without the Forbidden lord (but Red Fury) :-)

(03-17-2011 07:26 PM)Count Lasombra Wrote:  I never leave home w/o atleast one VG,preferably two.It's great at soloing chumps and warmachines,it also makes a good chariot to support your line.I run my VG behind my wraiths when I field them.The wraiths block the VG and the VG allows them to march.

I agree, they are perfect for this.
I also never leave home without a VG, but last games I haven’t unpacked him. Its some sort of punishment for the lack of performance in his last few games. Time is coming when I will unleash him on the battlefield oncemore.

(03-17-2011 07:26 PM)Count Lasombra Wrote:  I have to disagree about the GW as well,enemy char will likely have higher initiative and be well armored.If you are swinging last anyway = swing harder.

I disagree for two reasons:
Not having a GW will increase your AS to 4+ (instead of 5+) and will give you a 6+ shield-ward vs flaming and killing blow Attacks. For me the WK –BSB is very important inside my GG due to the Regenhoff, and by not having a GW it will increase your survivability.
Not having a GW also means, when you get the VDM off, you actually strike first instead of on initiative 4. So you strike before enemy characters, usually hitting on 2+ (helm & BOB) and still get a decent chance to roll a Killing blow.

(03-17-2011 07:26 PM)Count Lasombra Wrote:  I'm not a big fan of the coach in conjuntion with a caster lord.I'd drop the coach and add another VG...OR, and this is probably meaner 3-4 more wraiths(in the same unit).

When I use my caster lord (L4, MotBA, crimson Gem, Periapt on 2nd cHaracter), the Coach hardly ever hurts my own magic phase as I’m able to counter the lost dice to the coach better then my opponents. Then again, If I lose dice, there’s still a win situation as my coach gets better. The coach on average loads up to ethereal (step 5) by the end of the 2 turn (after 4 magic phases). So from my trun 3, it’s hardly untouchable.

Post: #8

Quote:The main reason to include the vampire was to deal with characters/models with flaming attacks inside enemy units threatening my GG. The character could cause flaming wounds on my GG negating all the regen for wounds caused by the rest of the unit. When I’m able to challenge this character with my vampire, using the 2+ As and 2+ ward vs flaming to not get any wounds, my GG have a higher survivability against the unit (for example a flaming herald of khorne inside blood letters).

Fair point, but he could accept with his champion, leaving the herald and rest of the bloodletters to wreack havoc upon the GG.

Quote: When you are not taking this vampire, you could have the Dragon Bane gem on your scroll Necro. Whenever there’s a thirster charging into your skellies, you can challenge and try to save it all on the ward. I recommend you try to find out whether he has flaming attacks by using your champion though ;-)

It´s a good idea, I´ll be sure to try it when I see any BT´s targeting my bunker .

Quote:When you play with your L3 Forbidden Lore Lord, could you do yourself a favour? Roll 4 dice at the start of battle, as if you were generating spells as normal. Try to find out how many spells you are actually using during the battle which you wouldn’t have generated yourself. In the end, this advantage of having all spells, should outweigh the fact to be ‘only’ L3

Sure thing! The reason I went for forbidden lore is that I´ve had bad luck with getting the spells I want. Usually when I need that magic missile I dont have it because I had to take VHD and Summon undead horde instead. Other times I wished I had raise dead to raise some very useful redirectors and found out I dont have it for the above mentioned reason. I´ll report back on this.

Quote:the Coach hardly ever hurts my own magic phase as I’m able to counter the lost dice to the coach better then my opponents. Then again, If I lose dice, there’s still a win situation as my coach gets better. The coach on average loads up to ethereal (step 5) by the end of the 2 turn (after 4 magic phases). So from my trun 3, it’s hardly untouchable.

This is why I use mine too. The coach has a place in both magic and combat heaby lists IMO.

Quote:I like your list Mikael. I am all into ETC list building so my list looks a bit like this but no Drakenhoff banner, and two Black Coaches for rare. I also have the hellsteed vamp as I think its good against many opponents and gives a nice threat range where they cant go with their support units for fear of my vampire charging out.

Yeah, have you been able to get more games in? It would be great to hear more about how it has worked out for you. So now I have two vampire candidates should my varghulf fail miserably .

Post: #9

You have some good points there Malum.You could always take a GW and shield on the WK and decide at the start of combat how to fight.
The black coach is hard as nails,but I'd include at least one other source of power dice in the list.The example you gave included both the periapt and crimson gem whereas this list only has MOTBA;which is good but more insurance helps when you are giving up a random # of power dice every turn.
I like forward to hearing how it goes.

Post: #10

(03-18-2011 03:24 PM)Count Lasombra Wrote:  ...You could always take a GW and shield on the WK and decide at the start of combat how to fight.

Unfortunately we cannot, this has changed in the rules. If you have a special weapon you are forced to use it (page 89).

Post: #11

@Malum-Wow,I didn't realise that...it seems your right,unfortunately.

Post: #12

(03-18-2011 03:24 PM)Count Lasombra Wrote:  You have some good points there Malum.You could always take a GW and shield on the WK and decide at the start of combat how to fight.
The black coach is hard as nails,but I'd include at least one other source of power dice in the list.The example you gave included both the periapt and crimson gem whereas this list only has MOTBA;which is good but more insurance helps when you are giving up a random # of power dice every turn.
I like forward to hearing how it goes.

Used the coach a lot lateöy and it usually absorbs 1-2 PD a turn, so the MOTBA makes up for it. Then of course, all extra PD is a plus. Malum´s advice has been taken into consideration. Maybe I´ll be fine without the earthing rod, in that case I could include the periapt on the lord. The crimson gem idea seems really good too. Never thought of that item like that.

Post: #13

Blood drinker + crimson gem is ugly.

Post: #14

I can see that working great on a level 3 combat lord .

EDIT: Original list has been edited. WK dropped his great weapon for an increased save, the necro dropped IoN and gained the ironcurse icon. I have shuffled the unit sizes a bit aswell. The idea is to include a magic banner on the skellies too, but im at work so I dont have my book with me. I´ve heard two choices to date, MR1 and M +1.

Also, im thinking of including the crimson gem on the lord. You guys convinced me of the potential that thing has. Dropping the earthing rod for it. I would like the periapt aswell, but the scroll is too important to drop. Any ideas?

Post: #15

Unless you plan to use the blooddrinker,I'd just give him the periapt.

Post: #16

Another update on the list. The lord got a 4th level instead of forbidden lore, changed his earthing rod for the periapt and charmed shield. The necro got the dragonbane gem in case im charge by any bloodthirsters or khorne heralds.

The skellies got one more body and the lichebone pennant. Think I´ve taken most advice into account. Still keeping the varghulf. This list need support units, not more characters IMO. Too many lists have onlu 3-4 big blocks and little to none support.

Post: #17

(03-19-2011 03:34 PM)Count Lasombra Wrote:  Unless you plan to use the blooddrinker,I'd just give him the periapt.

I second that! I prefer the Periapt over the Gem.

Post: #18

(03-20-2011 09:59 PM)Mikael.K Wrote:  Another update on the list. The lord got a 4th level instead of forbidden lore, changed his earthing rod for the periapt and charmed shield. The necro got the dragonbane gem in case im charge by any bloodthirsters or khorne heralds.

The skellies got one more body and the lichebone pennant. Think I´ve taken most advice into account. Still keeping the varghulf. This list need support units, not more characters IMO. Too many lists have onlu 3-4 big blocks and little to none support.

Hi Michael,
Obviously I like the list. You'll do fine with it!

About the Vargulf: keep him and have fun! It wasn't my intention to have you drop the model in favour of a vampire character. I have done so myself for a Grand Tournament list in order to pack more punch against Daemons and other VC (due to lore of Light) and to 'protect' and fully utiliise my GG. Although on paper it doens't look like a good deal, as the kitted vampire I used is 10 points more expensive then the Vargulf, it was more useful then I thought he would be.

I just wanted to share my experience on this option, similar like the one of NOT taking a GW on the Wight King BSB.

About the necro with ward save vs flaming: It also helps against units with the flaming banner. Especially characters to absorb combat effectiviness of characters inside these units (chaos characters who need to challenge for example). Please mind that these should not wield magical weapon as the flaming has no effect on magical weapons. Still the advise is not to get this unit in combat, but if it happens... voila

I can happen though as I experienced on my last tournament. On my right flank my ghouls were 'forced' to charge some daemonettes (Siron Song) and my skellie bunker got threatened by a flying Thirster. I could not get anything inbetween, so my Lord decided to abandon ship and moved 12 inches outside the bunker to my ghouls on my left flank. The necro and skellies were unable to get away and got charged by the thirster.

Post: #19

I dont have a book readily available but what does the ironcurse icon actually do?

Post: #20

(03-21-2011 01:18 PM)drkshmn3984 Wrote:  I dont have a book readily available but what does the ironcurse icon actually do?

Physically: You can find it on page 505: It gives the bearer and the unit a 6+ ward save against warmachine weapons.

Psychologically: your opponents with is using warmachines, will rather shoot ghouls without the ward save then the skellies. Exactely what you want him to do!