Post: #1

1. Vamp Lord lvl 3- on barded nightmare (runs w/black knights)
Red Fury, Quick Blood, Beguile
Ogre Blade, Night Shroud, Other Trickster's Shard, Luck Stone
Heavy Armor, Shield

2. Vamp lvl 2- aura dark majesty, fear incarnate, survival equipment (runs w/grave guard)
Aura of Dark Majesty, Fear Incarnate
Armor of Silvered Steel, Ironcurse Icon
Additional handweapon

3. Necro lvl 2- (runs w/skellies near GG)
Staff of Damnation

4. 39 Grave Guard w/command and great weapons, Screaming Banner

5. 29 Black Knights w/command, barding, lances, Banner of the Barrows

6. 40 Skellies w/command, Flaming Banner

7. 30 Ghouls

8. 13 Wolves

9. 13 Wolves

So 2 big hammers, planning on giving GG 2 attacks w/staff of damnation (40 S6 attacks plus Vamp's 6 S5 attacks). BKs run w/lord and puppies and kill everything (I've run this unit before).

I wanted to go Wight Kings but just couldn't bring myself to give up the Vamps!

Thoughts?

Post: #2

You should try writing out what your dudes actually have.

I'm really unconvinced by this for a Grand Army sized force, but what ever works for you.

Post: #3

(01-31-2012 04:13 PM)Aramoro Wrote:  You should try writing out what your dudes actually have.

I'm really unconvinced by this for a Grand Army sized force, but what ever works for you.

1. Their equipment isn't very important; they're basically good killing builds I've done before.

2. What has you unconvinced? Specifics will help.

Thanks!

Post: #4

Specifics will help? Are you serious? Is that actually what you are asking?

Specifics are not very important, basically your list is weak.

Post: #5

Aramoro, that is not how we help people with their army lists.

Post: #6

(02-01-2012 11:13 AM)Sanai Wrote:  Aramoro, that is not how we help people with their army lists.

The guys wants specifics whilst he can't be bothered to even tell us what is really in his army? He's got a bunch of massive units which he knows work great, so there's nothing to change. I'm all about helping people who want help, I'm sure a Horde of Black Knights is great and won't at all get Gateway'd.

Here I've guessed whats in his army

Lord
- Level 3
- Barded Nightmare
- Quickblood
- Red Fury
- Sword of Bloodshed
- Talisman of Endurance
- Heavy Armour
- Shield
- Dragonhelm

Necromancer
- Level 2 Vampires
- Staff of Damnation

Vampire
- Aura of Dark Majesty
- Heavy Armour
- Shield
- Fear Incarnate

30 Crypt Ghouls

40 Skeletons
- FC
- Banner of Eternal Flame

10 Dire Wolves

18 Dire Wolves

29 Black Knights
- FC
- Banner of the Barrows

39 Grave Guard
- Great Weapons
- FC
- Screaming banner

Now that comes to 2775 points, now i'm no expert but giving up 225 points to your opponent on being short is not a great idea. I mean I could guess he's got a Terrorghiest in there as well, or maybe a Black Coach or maybe some Varghiests?

Post: #7

So now you are saying his list works great? I thought you said it was weak.
My point is even if he doesn't give specifics on magic items, thats not the point, he isn't asking for help setting up his lords/heroes, as he is happy with his lords/heroes items, hes more concerned with the rest of the army.
As for making comments on peoples lists, heres some examples.
"Your list is weak" = bad
"Your list suffers from not having enough strong offensive units or not enough ld" = better

Post: #8

It's impossible to say how good or bad his list is as it's incomplete. He's like 200 points short of 3000 points and not know what his guys have means it's guesswork. I asked his to clarify what he had so I know how many points he's short exactly and apparently it's not important. If you post an incredibly vague incomplete list you're going to get either vague feedback or no feedback as was the case.

Post: #9

Well, it's actually 3k on the nose (I was 45 pts over in fact). I'll edit the above list so you can see the exact equipment my characters have. The only thing incomplete was the characters' equipment, so I hope you'll be able to provide more insight about how the list is weak.

Thanks.

Post: #10

I still make you out to be 93pts under, which is handy as you need another 26 points to make minimum core.

My biggest problem is this Deathstar unit, it's really hard to manoeuvre, with 834 pts on the Unit and 518pts on the Lord this is 1352pts of your army tied up in a unit that can only move 7" (March 14") a turn as you've sawn off your Spectral Steeds. This makes it unwieldy, and terrain will mess up your cavalry no end (trust me I'm a Bretonnian player) You don't really have any magical defence outside of rolling dispels, at this points value you will be facing some heavy artillery and hard magic phases. A single Infernal Gateway and you can lose that whole Deathstar and the game with it. It's all about eggs in baskets and the higher the points the more danger you are in from relying on them. Even Bretonnians will be bringing 4 Trebuchets which will have a hard time missing that Black Knight blob. You're also going to cause yourself issues with your General riding off somewhere meaning the rest of your army cannot march, so your opponent can happily focus all their attention on your Black Knight block.

But that is literally half your army and if you like the unit then there's not much changing to be done. Try to squeeze in at least a dispel scroll so you have something to use if Final Transmutation/Purple Sun/Dwellers/Wind of Undeath/Infernal Gateway don't go off with irresistible force.

At this points level you need to have more threats and you just have the two and they are poorly defended from War machines and Magic, far less a tarpit unit a few 100 points of Zombies will keep those Black Knights happy for half the game.

Post: #11

Thats better alot more specific and detailed both of you.
That is a very large black knight unit. I can imagine you would be fairly invested in the unit however if you have managed to buy assemble and paint that many black knights and may be reluctant to shrink the unit. Perhaps you should split it into two units and drop a few models of each at the very least.

Post: #12

(02-01-2012 05:38 PM)Aramoro Wrote:  I still make you out to be 93pts under, which is handy as you need another 26 points to make minimum core.

=Don't know what to tell you here, your math is just off (though I am 3 pts off core after my last adjustment which will be fixed above).

My biggest problem is this Deathstar unit, it's really hard to manoeuvre, with 834 pts on the Unit and 518pts on the Lord this is 1352pts of your army tied up in a unit that can only move 7" (March 14") a turn as you've sawn off your Spectral Steeds.This makes it unwieldy, and terrain will mess up your cavalry no end (trust me I'm a Bretonnian player).

=14" isn't really unwieldly, and it doesn't have to be. With it's size and horde capabilities, it can go straight on if needs be. And losing the spectral steeds isn't that much of a loss (2" and terrain doesn't slow them down regardless). Sure there could be some dangerous terrain tests, but unless I move all 30 models through a forest, losses will be negligible.


You don't really have any magical defence outside of rolling dispels, at this points value you will be facing some heavy artillery and hard magic phases. A single Infernal Gateway and you can lose that whole Deathstar and the game with it. It's all about eggs in baskets and the higher the points the more danger you are in from relying on them. Even Bretonnians will be bringing 4 Trebuchets which will have a hard time missing that Black Knight blob.

=Perhaps, though that depends on the army I'm facing. I'll agree my defense is sort of weak, though we're really talking a dispel scroll (which I will, thanks for the tip). All armies (except dwarves) currently have to rely on rolling dispels this edition anyhow. As for warmachines, again, there's little that any army can do about that. I can use the dogs to threaten those pretty quickly though, if needs be. And realistically, there'll only be 1, maybe 2 turns of shooting at the knights thanks to their speed.

You're also going to cause yourself issues with your General riding off somewhere meaning the rest of your army cannot march, so your opponent can happily focus all their attention on your Black Knight block.

= The line troops (and 2nd hammer) don't have to march as the dogs and knights will keep their attention (and the latter wreaking destruction) while the infantry moves up to clean up or take on the other flank.

But that is literally half your army and if you like the unit then there's not much changing to be done. Try to squeeze in at least a dispel scroll so you have something to use if Final Transmutation/Purple Sun/Dwellers/Wind of Undeath/Infernal Gateway don't go off with irresistible force.

= True, the army pivots on this unit. I will fit in a dispel scroll; I was wondering if I ought to reduce the size of the GG to fit in some other unit (spirit host, bats, etc.)

At this points level you need to have more threats and you just have the two and they are poorly defended from War machines and Magic, far less a tarpit unit a few 100 points of Zombies will keep those Black Knights happy for half the game.

= I've played undead for a long time, and until this edition, I never even ran tarpits (heavy, fast moving cav armies). But steadfast has neutered that tactic for the most part. Last book this "deathstar" worked incredibly well, albeit boosted with hatred and regen via a BSB. So, trying to make it work again is going to be tricky (though mitigated by the fact that I can raise 4 knights per IoN!). I imagine the dogs and nights truly swinging in a flank (if available) or busting through their center rank while the infantry moves up (bolstered by the book of Arkhan instead of the staff for extra attacks?). My biggest concern is only having 6 units (should get that +1, right?) and whether or not this will be compensated by a fast, smashing killy unit.

= Like all theory hammer, to the fields to test!

Post: #13

(01-30-2012 10:46 PM)arbogast Wrote:  1. Vamp Lord lvl 3- on barded nightmare (runs w/black knights)
Red Fury, Quick Blood, Beguile
Ogre Blade, Night Shroud, Other Trickster's Shard, Luck Stone
Heavy Armor, Shield

2. Vamp lvl 2- aura dark majesty, fear incarnate, survival equipment (runs w/grave guard)
Aura of Dark Majesty, Fear Incarnate
Armor of Silvered Steel, Ironcurse Icon
Additional handweapon

3. Necro lvl 2- (runs w/skellies near GG)
Staff of Damnation [or dispel scroll instead?]

4. 35 Grave Guard w/command and great weapons, Screaming Banner

5. 29 Black Knights w/command, barding, lances, Banner of the Barrows

6. 40 Skellies w/command, Flaming Banner

7. 30 Ghouls

8. 15 Wolves

9. 13 Wolves

So 2 big hammers, planning on giving GG 2 attacks w/staff of damnation (40 S6 attacks plus Vamp's 6 S5 attacks). BKs run w/lord and puppies and kill everything (I've run this unit before).

I wanted to go Wight Kings but just couldn't bring myself to give up the Vamps!

Thoughts?

Post: #14

I must be missing something somewhere

1. Vamp Lord lvl 3- on barded nightmare (runs w/black knights)
Red Fury, Quick Blood, Beguile
Ogre Blade, Night Shroud, Other Trickster's Shard, Luck Stone
Heavy Armor, Shield

518 points

2. Vamp lvl 2- aura dark majesty, fear incarnate, survival equipment (runs w/grave guard)
Aura of Dark Majesty, Fear Incarnate
Armor of Silvered Steel, Ironcurse Icon
Additional handweapon

203 points

3. Necro lvl 2- (runs w/skellies near GG)
Staff of Damnation [or dispel scroll instead?]

105 points

4. 35 Grave Guard w/command and great weapons, Screaming Banner

475 points

5. 29 Black Knights w/command, barding, lances, Banner of the Barrows

834 points

6. 40 Skellies w/command, Flaming Banner

240 points

7. 30 Ghouls

300 points

8. 15 Wolves

120 points

9. 13 Wolves

104 points

That only adds up to 2899 points I think, unless i've missed something.