(09-20-2011 05:23 AM)LordTobias Wrote: I'm not sure where the huge disagreement with his stats come from. You have apparently never played against an Ogre army's Lord in close combat. The idea was to have this mad butcher come in and slay the shit out of him, and that's basically it. I also tend to play against magic heavy and gun line armies; I guarantee this guy will go down pretty damn fast, regardless of a 4+ ward or not.
I did comment that while I love the idea of the +3 stat power, it IS broke as hell. I was running some mock challenges and combats; he'd statistically suffer a wound around 12% of the time, and of those he'd ward off the damage 50% of the time. Or he'd statistically cause wounds 88% of the time, etc etc.
Again, you're very much overlooking the rule book. I can build a FAR more viable "legal" character for less points. A character that is a phenom in combat AND has level 3 or 4 casting. When I say my hybrid lord has literally won me 3 games based on his sheer ability to murder, I mean it. It's sickening what happens what a combat/hybrid lord does when he's buffed with Vanhel's.
You are also forgetting a couple other MAJOR points, Uziel. It's obnoxiously easy for me to get out a few Lore of Beasts spells to augment my lord. Imagine that hybrid lord with red fury, infinite hatred, and under the effects of VDM suddenly getting +3 S (to a total of 10 S) and 7 attacks. I find my current character a much more legitimate trade off because he can NOT use magic. Period.
To specifically comment on each point, again:
1-How is it an issue for any vampire to have a strength of 6? Every bit of Warhammer history you've ever read speaks about how much more physically gifted they are than men. ALL vampire lords should have S6 in my book. The current vampire statline, however, gets trumped by almost everything.
You also seem to think my troupe cares about the "facts" of Warhammer. Is it that unreasonable that I have some character who could've been a major player? I'm making my own lord, after all. You're being extremely unreasonable in this regard. "Well, it's not in the history of Warhammer." Obviously it isn't. I didn't write the books.
2-Again, you're making a big deal out of the movement of 9. Once more, Talisman of the Lycni. 10 points, gives your vampire M9. Against the amount of Ogres I've been fighting, that's also not true. He'd kill 3 - 4 on average. If the guy I'm playing against is smart, he'll use his giant S10 cannons against this guy specifically. I've had my terrorgheist one turned by ONE of them in two separate games now. This guy will force him to make a move. And you know what STILL happens 50% of the time? He one turns this lord. It's only a 4+ ward, after all.
3-I HIGHLY dislike hybrid vamps. It's not true to the story at all, or true to any vampire lore of any kind. Very few vampires are good at both; all ARE physically gifted, but some far more so. I'm trying to go back to that, where the army is limited in some ways but excels in others.
4-I do not interpret beguile as a social power. However, I CAN and DO understand why it can be seen that way, given the group of powers it sits in with. Also, keep in mind this character typically wounds on a 2+. Given that, I'm definitely leaning toward dropping Beguile, actually. If I roll a 1 with this guy, I deserve it. (haha)
5-I actually meant to say that this character must be the general. Even if not a wizard, he is still an inherently magical creature, his will keeping the undead together. It would be stupid if he wasn't the general. I want it to be a gamble every time I play him. Again, the ability to augment his stats needs to be altered in some way. Maybe 1 wound per two points or per point. I think that's far more legitimate.
6-I don't disagree with this. It's kind of a weird mechanic to say he absolutely cannot join units, though. I've always felt weird about that. Ultimately, if he joins a unit he has fucked his own guys. So it's a fair trade off.
7-I do agree that this could easily be abused and needs to be changed. Keep in mind that if he tries to heal in combat it's not actually a guarantee it will work, AND he loses 3 attacks AND he loses Red Fury.
A brief look into his back story:
Mind you, I haven't completely decided what he's been doing for over two thousand years. He was one of the first vampires turned, and one of the first to go back to Nagash. He was as gifted with wizardry as he was the blade, and was a great champion and warlord of the Necromancer. When the lines of the vampires finally broke from the legions of Alcadizaar, Alexai was cursed and shamed by Nagash. He was stripped of his magical abilities and fled from the Great Necromancer himself, vowing one day to avenge this betrayal. He literally cannot feel the winds of magic; magic items and weapons to him are mundane items. Once where he was a noble, skilled warlord he is little more than a vicious butcher with little feeling, other than the desire to kill. Bear in mind his physical talents have been honed over the years as the absence of magic has left him little else. He trains/kills day in and day out for the day the Great Necromancer rises again from death so he can put him back into the grave.
Again, that's a brief look.
I think I need to re-word some of the rules. Pride and challenges should be more along the lines of a crazed butcher. Hate and spite drive Alexai, not pride. I should work to incorporate some rule that makes him more likely to attack wizards over anything else.
Here's some ideas:
Drop leadership to 9.
Cannot use the BSB if the army has one.
Reduce attacks to 5, but give him Frenzy. (Still 6 attacks, but he could lose it.) Incorporate into his potential random movement something like going after wizards or the general.
Double army crumble if he dies.
Thoughts?
First of, I get the fact that if you play against Empire gunlines, Dwarf Gunlines etc, they CAN actually do something about the character, before he gets into the middle of their lines, and causes mayhem. Your opponents should never feel helpless against the character, and as long as you play those armies that have cannons etc, this will mitigate this feeling a lot. There are however a lot or armies (a huge majority in fact) that don't have these options. Just something to keep in mind when creating a special character (which I assume is for general use). I'm not saying all his stats are broken, but compared to the likes of Vlad (which is the current first vampire of an original Bloodline); some definatly are.
1. Movement 9. You keep bringing the amulet of Lycni up. This is an item which I belive (with the name as a small giveaway, the bat/wolf theme of the book, and since wolves do havemovement 9)lest the vampire transform himself temporarily into his beastial wolf shape. If you're basing him on a Blood Dragon (as I got the impression was the idea), then I don't think it fits fluff-wise. Even Varghulf's only have 8. It 's easy to get a little coucht up in some vampire fiction, where you see tham described as moving lighning quick, almost to fast for the eye to follow etc; but if one gets to literal regarding this, Vampires should no have M6 in the first place, and even the FLY ability wouln't be adequate as far as speed goes. I have yet to see an Eagle move so fast that my vision gets blurred... Also, some armies have the option to take the Amulet of Lycni out of action, and can therefore counter it. Just saying.
2. 5 wounds. This is two more than the Vampire Counts of today, without any magical items etc, and also 1 more than a Varghulf (which is a literal monster). This I can see no justification for. I remember the Strigoi of old that had the Massive Bloodline Optional ability (at 50 points if I remember correctly), and they were probably described as much more beastial in nature (physically) than this special character (again assuming that you're going for an ancient Blood Dragon in the first place).
3. the Strength of 6. In Warhammer 8 ed, this seems to be reserved for monsters, and while ye, Vampires are described as incredibly strong in the fluff, so are Black Orc Warlords (thinkg Grimgor) that aer 8 feet + tall muscular beast, Chaos Lords that are empowered by their gods, etc.. Yes, Vampires are described as very strong according to the fluff, but they never tear down castle walls by hand etc. The excact strenght is hard to pin down, just as with a Orc Warboss/Chaos Lord, but GW has gone with 5 on theese characters, and to me that seems fine. To be honest, from the fluff, I think a Vampire Lord would lose a strength contest with the likes of Grimgor etc. Also, you even have a Great Weapon in him, which he negates the penalties for, which should be taken into consideration.
Regarding the +3 stat power, I would change it's versatility, so that it had to be used at the start of a turn (even your enemies), and I wouldn't allow it to increase toughness. If you went with a normal M6 Vampire Lord, this ability could be used to increase M, S and I by 2 instead. It would even make more sense from a fluff perspective, and still be damn good.
Regarding the Lore of Beast spell casting etc, bear in mind that those are CONDITIOAL benefits; i.e. something that your opponent can do something about. You also have to get the spells you want in the first place. Playing the likes of a High elves army with good wizards etc, you're not going to get those kinds of spells of that easily. Your opponent also have the option (on Remaining Play spells at least) to dispel them in his turn, using power dice. You also pay a lot of points to get those spells on your wizards, and to ensure that you can cast them on your cobat oriented magic lord.
Even if you CAN make a more dangerous
Hybrid character pr. the VC book today (which are conditional of certain spells being successfully cast etc), I don't reall see this as any argument of WHY a special character has to equal or even exceed this.
1. already answered this above, but I think you have to keep in mind that even S 4 is well beyond most men's reach. There has never been a S 5 human in the game as far as I can remember. So s 5 is beyond ALL men already, even the strongest ones. Even the Chaos Marauders (which are in the fluff often described as over seven feet tall, muscular as hell etc, technically only have S 3 in the game). something to keep in mind as far as interpreting the fluff on Vampires.
2. Covered above.
3. Stat and abilityy-wise, he does (at least for players who are familiar with the old Bloodlines etc) seem to be a Blood Dragon/Strigoy (or perhaps Varghulf) combination, i.e a hybrid. Take a look at Kondrad, whom I think makes an excellent character to base your vampire on. He is also a blood mad butcherer, and he has Infinate Hatred AND REf Fury. To compensate for this, and I'm guessing to balance this out somewhat, he also has a
LD of 6! and suffers from Stupidity to boot. Although you can according to the rules now take both without any reprecussions (which in my book should make someone highly unpredicatble), this is a "
Hybrid" vampire (assuming he is not bat-shit crazy as Konrad, which has severe penalties to show it).
4. I understand from the current description why you choose not to see it as a social power. It is a bit vague, and more along with the classical Transfix power from the description. I do have some thoughts though, on why I find it hard to see this on a butcher type vampire:
-Beguile used to be a Lahmia exclusive power, in name at least.
-Vlad and Isabella have the power, but both were decribed as incredibly "charming" etc. Mannfred has also been described as such, but he lacks it. Konrad (whom I see being the closes resemblace to your special character), definatly don't have it.
-If he is a butcherer-type fighter, even if it was a power along the old "Transfix" idea, I just can't see him being calm and controlled enough to use it. If you read it as a social power, then with his Hatred and Red Fury, it becomes very hard to justify him having it from a psychological standpoint etc. Especially if you go with Frenzy s well... Khorne berserkers don't tend to be that charming, and you definatly won't be staring into their eyes a lot.
5. Ok. If he has to be the general, then I agree that it becomes a greater disability. If not, then it would be open to much more abuse as I said earlier.
6. I see where you are going, just keep in mind that it is also a somewhat weird mechanic that enemies can make him out clearly amongst a unit of similar sized troops. Mostly I have a problem with him NOT having a 2+ Look Out Sir roll when "hiding" amongst troops, because finding one man amongst thousands (which I imagine that the armies are supposed to represent, and not 1 model being one actual man etc). He'd have to light up like a christmas three somehow to be noticed by everyone behind a Cannon somewhere. I applaud you from not trying to make him safe from harm by hiding him in a bunker until he can charge out etc from a balance perspective; I just don't see it making any sense that he can so easily be spotted though (I imagine he is Infantry after all). That is why it becomes better to keep him outside of units in my opinion. Isn't there exaples of Characters that cannot join units of similar sized models in varyous army books? I don't think this would be something new. This would also let armies that don't have the likes of cannons, but that have other regular missile weapons, stand some chance of stopping him reachin their lines before it was to late.
How about extending his negative presence on nearby troops to be within 6" instead?
7. I see that. The ability in itself is not really a problem in itself by any means. I quite like the idea that Vampires my be ably to heal through drinking the blood of their enemies etc, as that is how they heal accoring to all the fluff ever written on them. I just think with 5 wounds (and previous possible toughness of 8) that it is much better than it looks initially. This can however be fixed, without doing anything about the ability itself. I quite like the fact that he can't use red fury when using it etc.
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LD 9 I definatly agree on. Look at Konrad (
LD 6 and Stupidity) for what Infinate Hatred and Red Fury can do to a fragile mind. hehe But for an ancient (and hopefully at least slightly more sane) character,
LD 9 is doable.
-Not a big fan of making "exception rules" to make things work, because they can be hard to justif., I agree that his disadvantage of having to go for the enemy General/Wizard becomes quite small if he starts near to the standard however. If he can reach the enemy general it is not a disadvantage anyway really, but if he fails to reach, then he becomes vulnerable to a round of missile fire (assuming the enemy has the weapons neededto harm him). I think perhaps reducing his movement will be enough instead, so that he can't so easily charge such vast distances. This would also occationally leave him out in the open by himself (and not in close combat), and you might even have to roll this test again (and you might not be in
BSB rang the nex time).
-I agree with reducing attacks to 5, and giving him Frenzy. I would remove Beguile though, as well as give him regular killing blow, instead of Heroic. This would let opponents at least have the tactical ability of placing a monster between him and his General/wizard etc. A minster that might actually survive and be able to strike back. Heroic Killing Blow is VERY rare so far, and typically delivered by larger models (Necrosphinx, that Ogre Kingdoms Executioner Character), with far fewer attacks. Maybe substitute al his attacks for one heroic killing blow instead...
-Not sure about the double crumble if he dies. Like Konrad (in the fluff) need actul wizards to keep his army on its feet, I see him being in the same situation. He is not leading a mortal army, so there would have to be wizards since he can't cast spells, even if he hates their guts. I'd leave that be as normal, as it is already such a great disadvantage to begin with.
Some thoughts on his background:
-If he was one of Nagash's general, he would be closer to 4000 years old, than 2000.
-I must admit that I have a very hard time seeing him as an actual Blood Dragon decendant; the reason being that at the time W'soran and Arkan the Black led Nagash's armies towards Nehekhara, Aborshs still resented his condition very much, and I can't see him willingly making Vampires so early. It has been a while since I read the Blood Dragon fluff from the old army books though, but I do seem to remember that there was something about him holding out very long before creating new vampires.
-If I am not mistaking, there are hinted at other vamipire bloodlines in the old army books (can't remember, but it could have been a total of seven, leaving two unaccounted for). You'd have to check this though, as I'm not entirely sure. Could he possibly have been one of theese? He doesn't strike me as a "pure" Blood Dragon (as he has been developed with the 7.ed book, which is as far as I'm concerned a pure Von Carstein/hybrid list (even says it's a Von Carstein lit on p.33).
Looking forward to seeing v1.1
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Alexai Atshudetzae, the Lord of War.