Post: #1

Playing in a Blood in the Badlands campaign and I received the displeasure of being jabbed in beside the dwarves. The last 2 games have been a shutout before turn 5 thanks to his 7 war machines. I've tried everything I can think of; Dire Wolf hordes, Varghulf, Varghiests, Suicide purple sun vamps, Bats, Blood Knights, Hex wraith, and terrorgheists ALL of which take a magical flaming cannonball/grudge thrower to the head before they can get within 12". I'm at a loss for ideas at this point, it's either find a tactic or drop out of the campaign. Even the Dwarf player thinks that this is ridiculous, neither he nor any one else in my group is seeing a problem with my builds/tactics/deployment it's just the VC in general being completely violated by any army with 3+ war machines. Any ideas?

Post: #2

I think you'll need the right combination of enough pressure in your main battle line so that he cannot afford to shoot all your chaff, but still pressure his warmachines with your bats / wolves.

A list like that should include something like 2x5 wolves, 1x2 bats, 1x varghulf, 1x 10 knights (only his organ gun is a real threat to them). Possible additions: 1x10 wolves instead of 5. 1-2 x 2 Bat swarms, vargheists, terrorgheist.

Further you'll need an anvil of your taste (30 GG or 6-9 crypt horrors).

Just advance to his gunline as fast as possible from there. If this still doesn't work, he either put too many warmachines in to be fun, or there's still something wrong. Can't be more specific than this, as i don't really know what warmachines, and how many points you're playing.

Post: #3

If he's spending that many points into war machines, why dont you spend equal/more on warmachine hunters? He can't get through all of them...right?

I'm thinking LOTS of medium sized units of fell bats and dire wolves. Use vanguard!

I would've said ethereals, but it doesn't work so well against dwarves..

Cheese armies suck

Post: #4

(01-29-2012 06:52 PM)Berkinator Wrote:  If he's spending that many points into war machines, why dont you spend equal/more on warmachine hunters? He can't get through all of them...right?

I'm thinking LOTS of medium sized units of fell bats and dire wolves. Use vanguard!

I would've said ethereals, but it doesn't work so well against dwarves..

Cheese armies suck

To give you a bit more info, he bunkers most of his war machines. He'll deploy his engineer general and then place all the machines except the Organ guns around the general, followed by a wall of dwarven horde formations. The organ guns get deployed wherever I have the cav. He leaves no room for ANY fliers to hop his lines and assault the guns, and our ground based hunters have 50 man GW wielding dwarves between them and the machines. He just sits there, waits for my fast movers to hit his wall/get in charge range and all the while cannon snipes anything of danger to him.

Example 2500pt game: Last night at first he deployed only 3 units of dwarves in a sandbag formation then after I deployed everything else of mine he dropped 3 cannon, a bolt thrower, and a grudge thrower behind that line along with 2 organ guns to the side pointing right at my Blood knights and one of my 3 10pup dire wolves. Before turn three started he had killed all but one BK(model not unit), my coach, 2 bat swarms and half my core(not counting pups) using war machines to remove all except my 2 units of 10 pups which got single turn destroyed after charging ONE of his 50 dwarf hordes. By the end of 3 I had 2 characters, 14 skellies, and the swarms. End of 4, nothing.

Edit: And before you say "purple sun/other vortex spell/etc" he scrolled/dispelled EVERYTHING not IoN or Vanhels and my first 2 phases I had a Mortis and 10+ PD Including 2 Purples and a Wind of Death.

Post: #5

Ugh, Dwarven Gunline. It's still viable, it seems.

The only way I won against Gunlines in 7'th (Haven't played in almost a year, mind) was Van Hels + combat + Fliers to tie up warmachines.

Also, try to vary up terrain. That's a HUGE part of Gunline strategy. Does he consistently have a hill in his deployment? Is there little to no LOS blocking terrain on the field? If at all possible, have someone else set up the battlefield, and try to pick as many LOS blockers as possible. Not saying your opponent is a cheat, but Gunlines need LOS, and some players do anything they can to get it. Happened a lot in 7'th against me, and whenever I had an impartial party set up terrain, and if I got to pick sides....my win/loss went up considerably.

That, and a few good/clutch Wind of Undeath worked. Do we still have that kind of spell? I dunno, don't have the new book.

Post: #6

(01-29-2012 07:52 PM)Onikaigo Wrote:  Ugh, Dwarven Gunline. It's still viable, it seems.

The only way I won against Gunlines in 7'th (Haven't played in almost a year, mind) was Van Hels + combat + Fliers to tie up warmachines.

Also, try to vary up terrain. That's a HUGE part of Gunline strategy. Does he consistently have a hill in his deployment? Is there little to no LOS blocking terrain on the field? If at all possible, have someone else set up the battlefield, and try to pick as many LOS blockers as possible. Not saying your opponent is a cheat, but Gunlines need LOS, and some players do anything they can to get it. Happened a lot in 7'th against me, and whenever I had an impartial party set up terrain, and if I got to pick sides....my win/loss went up considerably.

That, and a few good/clutch Wind of Undeath worked. Do we still have that kind of spell? I dunno, don't have the new book.

We have Wind of Death now, str 3 vortex on a 15 instead of the old (but slow) war machine eater that was wind of UNdeath. All my games so far against him have been either preset tables or scenarios that in NO way benefited me terrain wise. Which is my primary concern, Feb 11th is the big end of season scenario and one of the three battlefields is a siege game, I have a strong sneaking suspicion I'm on the defense team. BitB siege + Vamps in defense.... um the lack of war machines bites yet again.

Post: #7

I play against dwarves with 8 warmachines at ard' boys alot and ive won quite a few games. I would take small units of wolves and fel bats. Blood knights with banner can help (they will still usually die but it takes alot to kill them. Of course run your general in large unit of skellies or zombies or gg and take the iron curse icon to help minimize casualties a little. Black coaches are also pretty solid as they have a 4 up ward and enough wounds to usually last through a hit. With enough tough units around he will have to pick some targets and once you can get up there and start killing his stone throwers he cant do as much damage to your block units. Also remember that you can AOE van hels to get basically another entire movement phase, and invocation of nek as often as you can to revive what you have lost so far.

Also review your war machine rules as their are few tricks that can help. With cannons you can screen your vargeists and vargulf with blocks of infantry, because if they cannot see the point on the ground they are shooting at they have to choose the actual model and if will most likely overshoot(this doesnt work very well with terrorgeists because they are so huge). Also dont place your screening infantry so that shooting at the front of them is the optimal distance to the vargulf (6 or 7 inches i think).

These games still come down to luck alot of the time. With that many warmachines hes bound to misfire occasionally (even with rerolls). So get into combat as fast as possible so they cant shoot at you, have alot of tough targets that forces tehm to choose, make ward saves (joke), and make sure when you charge warmachines to wheel so you can overrun into more of them or other units as you dont have to close the door or anything against them just align however you want (with 1 wheel). This helps you stay in combat during his shooting phase.

I think i would take(knowing i was fighting dwarves) black coach, 5 or 10 blood knights with banner(DO NOT let them get shot through the flank, cannons can only hit one rank if they are in your front arc as per their rules) a large block of HW shield GG (t4 and 4+ will make them survive a little better...just a little though, also try to get hellish vigour for when this unit hit their core) 3 units of 3 felbats(they are cheaper now ) 6 vargesits screened with infantry near general so they dont frenzy (maybe two groups of 3 if you just want to warmachine hunt as that makes them not as deep for cannons. huge blocks of skellies at least 5x8 if not 5x10. id take maybe 2 or 3 units of 5 wolves(unlikely that he will waste cannons to kill 1 and stone throwers will usually want to target your gg, though organ guns might eat them). Id have one combaty vampire lord with iron curse in the gg with my bsb (wight king is efficient, or vampire if you want other combat tricks). Get a master necro as hes cheap casting and toss him in the back. Mortis engine screened by infantry and parked kinda sideways to the cannons is nice and would force him to use flaming cannons to get rid of regen and give him another thing hes has t worry about shooting (as they usualy dont have that on stone throwers much).

Other things that can help is to know EXACTLY (which if you play ard boys you do) what warmachines have what runes, note that he CANNOT use the same combination of runes on different warmachines (if their are 3 cannons usually 1 isnt flaming and so on).

This is what ive used against them so far after weeks and weeks of play testing just against dwarf lists like this (of course the new units are more speculative since i mostly played against them last book and i have not gotten in over 5 games with dwarves since then). If possible ask to see his army book and list and just to see whats possible and how it works, ive always found that it helps me better understand and defeat other armies. Last thing i have no idea what points you are playing at or what he takes besdies warmachines so its hard to be super specific with what builds i would take.


EDIT: took me a long while to write that, i should also mention that you have to plce warmachines ALL at the same time in one deployment so you just place some fell bats, wolves and maybe skelly bunkers till you know his deployment then deploy knights and gg and such to take advantage of it.


EDIT: EDIT: make you have more ranks then his hordes to deny steadfast, then with good killing by your lord 8 or so wounds on average) and the gg (with hit banner, hopefully rerolls from hellish) you should be able to win combat and make him flee. Make sure your not spending too much on characters, i would have only 3 in my list. BSB, lord and master necro.

Post: #8

I think Ethereal could be better than you think. Only their cannons, grudge throwers, and bolt throwers can shoot magical shots. I feel as though you could be able to get a unit of 5 hexwraiths up to charge them, or spirit hosts, or wraiths. Have you tried them all more than once?

Post: #9

It seems people are missing the OP's description of his opponent's setup.

The guy is deploying hordes of warriors directly in front of the war machines so there's no room for Vargheists to swoop in or for Wolves to charge.

I'm racking my brains, but to be honest I don't think there are that many effective counters to his playstyle.

Some possible ideas:

-- solo Vampire heros with the flying power. His hordes have to be at least 1" from the war machines they're defending, and the base of a Vampire is less than 1" square, meaning he'll be able to fly in there (assuming he had LoS to the war machine before he charges). The challenge is not getting him cannoned/organ gunned before he gets there...

-- Hexwraiths. They can travel through the Dwarf horde barricade and then through the war machine itself, electing to damage the war machine with their spectral hunters ability. However, without the General nearby to allow marching you may not have the necessary amount of movement to do this.

-- Terrorgheists screaming. A Dwarf horde is likely less than 8" from front rank to back rank, so you may be able to scream over it and hit the war machine (or just approach it from the side to keep out of counter-charge range). However, with flaming cannonballs flinging around your TG may not last very long...

None of those options are all that convincing. Statistically, using magic is probably the best bet. You just need to use as many advantages as you can to keep from getting dispelled; extra casting value from a Mortis Engine, extra dice from Periapt (Dwarfs ALWAYS leave you two extra dispel dice in their magic phase), Dark Acolyte, intelligent sequencing of your spells to get him to dispel the less important ones, etc.

Post: #10

How does he get line of sight when he deploys his horde formation in front of his warmachines?

Post: #11

(01-29-2012 09:12 PM)Shadowfax Wrote:  It seems people are missing the OP's description of his opponent's setup.

The guy is deploying hordes of warriors directly in front of the war machines so there's no room for Vargheists to swoop in or for Wolves to charge.

I'm racking my brains, but to be honest I don't think there are that many effective counters to his playstyle.

Some possible ideas:

-- solo Vampire heros with the flying power. His hordes have to be at least 1" from the war machines they're defending, and the base of a Vampire is less than 1" square, meaning he'll be able to fly in there (assuming he had LoS to the war machine before he charges). The challenge is not getting him cannoned/organ gunned before he gets there...

-- Hexwraiths. They can travel through the Dwarf horde barricade and then through the war machine itself, electing to damage the war machine with their spectral hunters ability. However, without the General nearby to allow marching you may not have the necessary amount of movement to do this.

-- Terrorgheists screaming. A Dwarf horde is likely less than 8" from front rank to back rank, so you may be able to scream over it and hit the war machine (or just approach it from the side to keep out of counter-charge range). However, with flaming cannonballs flinging around your TG may not last very long...

None of those options are all that convincing. Statistically, using magic is probably the best bet. You just need to use as many advantages as you can to keep from getting dispelled; extra casting value from a Mortis Engine, extra dice from Periapt (Dwarfs ALWAYS leave you two extra dispel dice in their magic phase), Dark Acolyte, intelligent sequencing of your spells to get him to dispel the less important ones, etc.

Yeah, you're right

Solo Vamp- Maybe... if he leaves a tiny hole for the vamp to land by accident

Hexwraiths- No room, yes the horde is small enough to charge through and only 2-3 of the cannons have magic attacks but the Hexwraiths CAN'T do so because there's not enough room for them to fit behind the hordes after their run through.

Terrorgheist- to scream at the cannons he has to get almost exactly 1 in in-front of the hordes, scream then get charged next turn. there is no flank to come around.

The Black Periapt has potential... now to just build it in around one of my generals that I'm stuck playing.

Post: #12

Quote:How does he get line of sight when he deploys his horde formation in front of his warmachines?

Dwarfs are very short

This is a common tactic and even without bases you will find that Dwarfen machines will see over infantry Dwarfs. The GT technically draws LoS from the crossbar so it could see over ogres.

Post: #13

Sounds like he always has a hill in his deployment zone in order to shoot over his horde when they're that close. Try varying up terrain a little

Post: #14

Sounds like you'll need to be in combat by turn two or three then... Drop slow infantry. Take minimum core, vargheists & crypt horrors & black knights.

Post: #15

I thought LOS was from the crew now, wernt crossbars last edition? or am i mistaken?

Another thing once youve measured closest to closest you can charge warmachines rears from the front as they dont have any flanks you just gotta be clever with your wheels. Its total cheese really but then so again is his whole army concept.

If you do g the purple sun route, a level 4 master necro can just keep 6 dicing sun youll get irresistible some time.

Post: #16

(01-29-2012 08:26 PM)baynexilos Wrote:  I play against dwarves with 8 warmachines at ard' boys alot and ive won quite a few games. I would take small units of wolves and fel bats. Blood knights with banner can help (they will still usually die but it takes alot to kill them. Of course run your general in large unit of skellies or zombies or gg and take the iron curse icon to help minimize casualties a little. Black coaches are also pretty solid as they have a 4 up ward and enough wounds to usually last through a hit. With enough tough units around he will have to pick some targets and once you can get up there and start killing his stone throwers he cant do as much damage to your block units. Also remember that you can AOE van hels to get basically another entire movement phase, and invocation of nek as often as you can to revive what you have lost so far.

Also review your war machine rules as their are few tricks that can help. With cannons you can screen your vargeists and vargulf with blocks of infantry, because if they cannot see the point on the ground they are shooting at they have to choose the actual model and if will most likely overshoot(this doesnt work very well with terrorgeists because they are so huge). Also dont place your screening infantry so that shooting at the front of them is the optimal distance to the vargulf (6 or 7 inches i think).

These games still come down to luck alot of the time. With that many warmachines hes bound to misfire occasionally (even with rerolls). So get into combat as fast as possible so they cant shoot at you, have alot of tough targets that forces tehm to choose, make ward saves (joke), and make sure when you charge warmachines to wheel so you can overrun into more of them or other units as you dont have to close the door or anything against them just align however you want (with 1 wheel). This helps you stay in combat during his shooting phase.

I think i would take(knowing i was fighting dwarves) black coach, 5 or 10 blood knights with banner(DO NOT let them get shot through the flank, cannons can only hit one rank if they are in your front arc as per their rules) a large block of HW shield GG (t4 and 4+ will make them survive a little better...just a little though, also try to get hellish vigour for when this unit hit their core) 3 units of 3 felbats(they are cheaper now ) 6 vargesits screened with infantry near general so they dont frenzy (maybe two groups of 3 if you just want to warmachine hunt as that makes them not as deep for cannons. huge blocks of skellies at least 5x8 if not 5x10. id take maybe 2 or 3 units of 5 wolves(unlikely that he will waste cannons to kill 1 and stone throwers will usually want to target your gg, though organ guns might eat them). Id have one combaty vampire lord with iron curse in the gg with my bsb (wight king is efficient, or vampire if you want other combat tricks). Get a master necro as hes cheap casting and toss him in the back. Mortis engine screened by infantry and parked kinda sideways to the cannons is nice and would force him to use flaming cannons to get rid of regen and give him another thing hes has t worry about shooting (as they usualy dont have that on stone throwers much).

Other things that can help is to know EXACTLY (which if you play ard boys you do) what warmachines have what runes, note that he CANNOT use the same combination of runes on different warmachines (if their are 3 cannons usually 1 isnt flaming and so on).

This is what ive used against them so far after weeks and weeks of play testing just against dwarf lists like this (of course the new units are more speculative since i mostly played against them last book and i have not gotten in over 5 games with dwarves since then). If possible ask to see his army book and list and just to see whats possible and how it works, ive always found that it helps me better understand and defeat other armies. Last thing i have no idea what points you are playing at or what he takes besdies warmachines so its hard to be super specific with what builds i would take.


EDIT: took me a long while to write that, i should also mention that you have to plce warmachines ALL at the same time in one deployment so you just place some fell bats, wolves and maybe skelly bunkers till you know his deployment then deploy knights and gg and such to take advantage of it.


EDIT: EDIT: make you have more ranks then his hordes to deny steadfast, then with good killing by your lord 8 or so wounds on average) and the gg (with hit banner, hopefully rerolls from hellish) you should be able to win combat and make him flee. Make sure your not spending too much on characters, i would have only 3 in my list. BSB, lord and master necro.

How does the infantry blocking work? I'm not seeing any rules where it says that the cannon has to see what it is shooting at or else it has to target it directly. That would mean you could effectively screen vargulfs and single rank MI because the base isn't long enough or wide enough to be hit by the minimum 2" scatter.

Also, about Hexwraiths, you guys are using them wrong. They are fast cavalry, and their special rule allows them to pass through unengaged models. They do not have to pass through the entire length and width of the unit, for if that were the case, denying them of their special rule would be easy.

Move onto the unit, reform, move out, reform. As long as you end up 1" away, you are good.

Post: #17

Here's some advice from a Dwarven player - either outmanuevre them, or stick a large number of Ethereals into close combat with the hordes.
It's true that Dwarven Artillery are pretty good. However, none of them have an infinite range, so if he deploys on the edge of the board just deploy out of range and magic the hell out of him. Eventually he'll have to make a decision to either tie up even more points in anti-magic, or bring the war machines closer, at which point you send in as many flyers as you can.
If that isn't the problem, then build large numbers of Ethereal units and get into combat as quickly as possible. There are no close combat units with magical attacks, only characters, as I've learnt to my own cost. As such, if you can deal out the damage then you'll have room for those flyers.
Hope this helps...

Post: #18

maybe..play 2k and take three terrorgheists (one with the SGK), min core, and all vargheist special. he cant cannon all of them down..right? the only problem is, then his normal units might become a problem with your core stuck in the back. terrorgheists suck in CC, though the ghoul king should do well.

if all else fails, throw him in a furnace

Post: #19

(01-30-2012 12:42 AM)Berkinator Wrote:  maybe..play 2k and take three terrorgheists (one with the SGK), min core, and all vargheist special. he cant cannon all of them down..right? the only problem is, then his normal units might become a problem with your core stuck in the back. terrorgheists suck in CC, though the ghoul king should do well.

if all else fails, throw him in a furnace

At 2k, he could have anywhere from 1-3 cannons, unless they are radically different from the empire. That is more than enough to kill two Terrorgheists and not enough points to run three unless you barebones the SGK to put him on one. So, yes, he has plenty of cannons for all of those.

Post: #20

What runes is he using on his war-machines? Once you start adding runes to cannons and stone-throwers they get very expensive. Is he just using the flaming rune on all of his machines? If he is then hey he is breaking the rules for dwarf runes. The rule of Grudges (i think i don't have my dwarf army book) states that no runic item may have the exact same runes as any other rune item in the army. If he is just using the flaming rune on all of his war-machines then he (possibly unknowingly) is breaking the rules for runic items. With the exception of the flaming rune all of the war-machine runes are 20-40 points.