Post: #1

Ok I need some help here, in the old rules of the last edition, if a character, a vampire lord for example killed 8 models, no model could strike him as it stated in the OLD rules that models slain cannot strike back etc etc, so as long as a vampire lord killed enough in CC he was safe.
Had a game in the store today assuming this was the case with this edition, and used the nightshroud, finding out that it only affects the front rank, (those in base contact) so the second rank of white lions for HE still got their strike at S6 and strike first, making the nightshroud useless.

So I kill 11 models (he has red fury, nightshroud and sword of bloodshed), thinking he cant strike me as ive killed so many, but both the player the GW member say that the models in the rear two ranks step forwards(it was a 20 strong unit of white lions), attacking the vamp, and now hes dead having suffered three de strenghed front rank attacks and 3 further from the supporting rank of which 4 wounded, cutting him into little pieces.

Is this right? Because if it is, then characters have been degraded a lot since last edition, it means that stirking first for a lord is next to useless, as the entire models in base contact will tear him to pieces most of the time because those models that step forwards still strike him, he would survive much longer with massive armour and ward, plus re rolls on armour opposed to wiping out half the unit in one round of combat

Post: #2

my take on this would be the 3? models in base contact with your vampire go back to initiative order (ASF+ASL)(hopefully errata will resolve question about elves ASF+ASL) soooo... all the other white lions (in theory only the 3 from the second rank) except the ones in base contact with your vampire will attack first "without" re-rolls at strength 6, if you survive that then you get to attack, then the 3 in base contact attack at strength 4 with no re-rolls (nightshroud removes strength bonuses). Casualties are removed from the rear.

Post: #3

So is this correct about the people in the second rank are uneffected by nightshroud?

Post: #4

To me, a supporting attack is made by the attacker moving into base contact with the wearer of the nightshroud, but apparently GW doesn't see it that way... How that Swordsman is meant to make an attack without actualy touching my Vampire is beyond me.

Post: #5

What im getting at though is this:

I kill 14 models (max with red fury and sword of bloodshed)

He can still strike with 6 models, slaying my lord, in the old rules they could not strike.

Now no matter how well my lord does, they can still slay him easily in one round of combat by directing their attacks against him.

In reality, If someone was THAT good and killed 14 people in a few seconds, 6 people couldnt just appear and cut him down, not a vampire like that, the old rules protected heroes so if you killed enough, they could not be struck, now no matter what you do theres a damm good chance they will die, and striking first is no good for heroes because whatever wounds they do, they can still die when taking armour and ward saves will help you more then strikes first

Also, my vamp lord was in a unit of ghouls at the time.
If it is the case that he can be struck no matter what as long as models are left alive in the enemy unit, then buffing him up with armour and ward (armour of destiny) plus dawnstone to re rell armour saves is about the only way he will survive in CC as they will almost always have 6 attacks against him

I know that models slain cant strike back, but the models moving up from the rear ranks can strike apparently. Meaning that no matter what, they still get all their attacks in the front few ranks (depending on spears, supporting attacks etc)

Post: #6

Well that's just the rules now, I'm afraid. It means you have to invest a decent amount of your points in defence.

Post: #7

Stepping up is a rule that compensates the loss of not attacking first when charging.
Think of Dwarves, or Skeletons, why they would even charge anyone if they were to strike last anyway? And if they loss 5 models, cannot attack at all? With this rule, you can take the punch, loose one or two ranks, and still blow at full power.
Otherwise, low init models never get a chance to attack.

For easy count, now casualties are removed from the last ranks, and ANY MODELS left in first two ranks can still strike back. Same happens in rear/flanks (except for extra rank). No matter how many models you kill, any one left can attack back.

That's one of the reasons GG with GW shines so much!!

For your lord protection, i suggest you challenge the champion unit. Very good chance of get CR bonus and he will be safe from troop attacks.

Post: #8

I was on a WFB-break when the change in edition happened. Is someboedy able to explain the virtue of striking in initiative order over the charge-strikes-first (other than to make it more like 40k)? It doesn't really make a huge amount of sense to me, but maybe I'm missing something...

Post: #9

In my opinion its much better then the old rules. Getting surprised by this in a game is tough, but if you know all the rules ahead of time you can gauge your charges correctly. Also remember ASF still helps you as it gives you rerolls to hit in many situations. I also keep my characters in the corners of units which helps keep attacks down in some situations. Challenging is another option.