Post: #1

Hi guys,

I am totally new to WHFB, Games-Workshop, Vampire counts etc, etc. I have the codex, the Big Rule Book and a box of 10 Skeletons.

I have read over a few of the tactics posts and just need a few questions answered about the core choices.

I am having trouble understanding the differences between the core choices for the vampire counts army, that would make me use one over the other other in a tactical situation.

I can see that the Crypt Ghouls are tougher, have 2 poisoned attacks and are double the cost of the Skeletons.

Skeletons are better armored, have access to a full command and can take magical banners/spears.

Zombies have a terrible stat line which is reflected in their cost.

My question is:

What situation should I be using the different core choices for? When would I use Zombies? When would I use Skeletons? When would I use Ghouls?

As an anvil(?) are the Zombies/Skeletons/Ghouls just as effecting as each other in their own way? Zombies can keep regenerating past their original number + their normally huge unit size. Skeletons have better Armour and shields/spears + a low point cost. Ghouls have a higher toughness but are more expensive.

I am sorry for the silliness of the questions but i need a little help understanding the roles of our core troops. many thanks for taking the time to read this post.

Post: #2

skellies are used as mini anvils (skels are ur preferable core, cheap and good
zombies are... well..... used as fodder pinning down people
crypts are to expansive

Post: #3

It's like this:

Zombies are tar pits. They can't kill much and they die quick. However our magic brings lots back to un-death and you can have more than what you started with. If you have lots of Necromancers in range, they should be able to hold anything in combat while the rest of your better hitting troops kill off other things. So use these if you like magic heavy lists.

Skellies do have armor and one necromancer can increase the starting size. They are slightly more durable as a tar put but can only kill slightly more than zombies. Take these if your not as magic heavy to also tie things up.

Ghouls are worth the points. They are best vs other core troops and monsterus stuff. T4 is not to be under estimated. Myself, I'm thinking this will still be my go-to unit. These guys dish out a lot of damage and can take about the same as skellies. Also you get more bang for your buck casting augment spells on these guys.

What it comes down to is how you like to play and what type of list you are running. If your starting, most players will not mind of you proxy to see how they work. At the start of the game ask if your zombies can count as ghouls for the game and most people will be fine with it.

Post: #4

thanks guys

I am starting off by making a 500 point list - probably with a necromancer as my hero choice. What would you recommend as the ideal troops choice for a very low points game (I already have a box of skellies ^^)

Post: #5

Quick list:

Necromancer, lvl 2, Opal Amulet

Zombies x20, Standard
Skellies x10, FC

Hexwraith x5
Corpse cart

Total: 500 points

EDIT: Since you are just starting, I want to point out that Mantic Games has VC models as well but cheaper. However many tournaments will not let you use them nor will GW stores. Check with the people you play with to be sure it's alright. The majority of my army is Mantic and the local tournaments (and the GT) allow it so it works for me.

Post: #6

Thanks COBRA7,

Would I tuck the necro in with the Skellies?

What tactics should I be trying to employ to run this list?

Thank you for all your helpful replies.

COBRA7: I will have a look at Mantic Games - thanks for the recommendation!

Post: #7

If your fighting a army that doesn't have shooting or magic that can hurt your necro, keep him on his own. The key is to keep him alive. Contrary to what I just said, after more thought, you might want to drop the Opal Amulet and get Master of the Dead instead to make more skellies.

Put your zombies in front of your opponents best unit, skellies next to it with corpse cart in the middle. Keep your necro with in 6" of all three units. Hexwraiths should be walking through units more often than charging.

Also remember, IoN is required to win with this list and should be cast every turn.

As far as more tactics, I can't help with that. You will need to learn what your opponents units do and the best ways to counter or overcome them. First, you need to learn what our units do, and to do that, you will loose many games and ask your opponents what mistakes you made and what to do better after the game.

Post: #8

i think its worth pointing out that GW has done a reasonable job with the new book, in that all the core choices deserve consideration.

there will be lots of different views expressed here and you will have to play some games to make up your own mind on certain things.

my current view is that zombies are excellent. for only 3pts you get a T3 model and can raise beyond starting levels very easily. thats huge, especially at 500pt games.

you pay more for skeles, but they are slightly more survivable because they wear armour. they can also take a 25pt banner. Do not expect your skeles or zombies to ever kill anything. ever. they are there to add ranks, banner and negate steadfast. you will have to decide wether the advantages above are worth the extra points per model, and the fact you cant raise them above starting value except for master of the dead.

Ghouls are offensive. extra WS, 2 attacks, poison. they are dangerous and people know it. they can kill large monsters also. T4 is equivilant to LA/ shield in most situations and vs high str better. this is why they cost more.

so you can see that each of them is slightly different and has different costs to reflect that. I haven't touched n wolves yet, but they are a little more difficult.

if your ding a 500pt list I would certainly take 30 zombies, under 100 pts great tarpit. and you can then afford harder hitters such as vargheists or even hexwraiths if your feeling mean...

Post: #9

(01-21-2012 08:53 PM)illusionarypresence Wrote:  i think its worth pointing out that GW has done a reasonable job with the new book, in that all the core choices deserve consideration.

there will be lots of different views expressed here and you will have to play some games to make up your own mind on certain things.

my current view is that zombies are excellent. for only 3pts you get a T3 model and can raise beyond starting levels very easily. thats huge, especially at 500pt games.

you pay more for skeles, but they are slightly more survivable because they wear armour. they can also take a 25pt banner. Do not expect your skeles or zombies to ever kill anything. ever. they are there to add ranks, banner and negate steadfast. you will have to decide wether the advantages above are worth the extra points per model, and the fact you cant raise them above starting value except for master of the dead.

Ghouls are offensive. extra WS, 2 attacks, poison. they are dangerous and people know it. they can kill large monsters also. T4 is equivilant to LA/ shield in most situations and vs high str better. this is why they cost more.

I actually really like this breakdown on core troops, well done!

I think zombies are a must-take for a 500pt list, but from there I'd suggest looking at what other units you want to include in larger games.

I'm personally not a fan of skellies (zombies do what I would use skellies for cheaper) but if you want to use them they're not bad. 10's probably not big enough to do more then take arrows for your character though.

If you weren't set on using your 10 skellies, I'd look at something like:

- 2 units of 20 zombies with standards for core
- Caster hero (your general) of choice, probably Necromancer as he's cheap and will likely be used in larger games no matter what route you go.
- Special unit of choice, probably something hard-hitting and relatively robust (crypt horrors and the 2 cavalry options are probably best, Graveguard need a little more points to come into their own in my opinion).
- fill out points with magic items, and tidbits of choice.

Things to steer clear of first off:

- Big monsters (Terrorgheists, Varghulfs... though if you must have something big, the varghulf's quite sturdy)
- Fancy/ specialist units (Black coach, Mortis engine, Cairn wraiths, etc.

This is not to say they're bad choices, but to start out, and especially if your still learning the rules, they're a bit more difficult to come to terms with.

Post: #10

Having played a few games with the new book using just Skeletons and Zombies for core I'm going to field a Ghoul block in my next game (2400pt). I think Ghouls are over-priced but as we HAVE to spend 25% on core I was getting tied up having too many blocks (For 600pts I was fielding 4 large blocks, bunker and 2 dire wolf units). I can afford all the tarpit blocks I need, a bunker, the dire wolves and still get a block of 25 Ghouls.

Post: #11

(02-02-2012 12:34 PM)N1AK Wrote:  Having played a few games with the new book using just Skeletons and Zombies for core I'm going to field a Ghoul block in my next game (2400pt). I think Ghouls are over-priced but as we HAVE to spend 25% on core I was getting tied up having too many blocks (For 600pts I was fielding 4 large blocks, bunker and 2 dire wolf units). I can afford all the tarpit blocks I need, a bunker, the dire wolves and still get a block of 25 Ghouls.

So making the ghouls over priced has the following effect in large games:

The ghouls are overpriced, so we don't start taking ghouls as main infantry. But after a few other choices, we still have to fill in some minimum core. Taking more cheapass crap is not going to benefit our army, so we pick ghouls because thats the only core that's able to do some combat support (without spells).

So as a result ghouls become a hidden 0-1 choice in armies untill 3k points. I think it's great game design if phil kelly did this on purpose.

Post: #12

I really don't think Ghouls are overpriced in the new book. 2 Attacks, Poisonous, T4 with Unbreakable and ability to be healed? That is a reasonable cost.

As for Zombies Vs Skeletons I think they both have a place. Skeletons are just a lot more durable. Say you've got a block of Skeletons facing off against, Empire Swordsmen, both 5 wide and deep. They'll strike first with their 11 attacks, and after saves and parries they'll kill 2 Skeletons and the Skeletons will kill 1-2 back, so you crumble maybe 1 guy. Zombies on the other hand will kill only 1 Swordsmen if they're lucky but the Swordsmen will kill 3-4 Zombies, so you crumble another 2-3 zombies. So the Skeletons lose 3-4 guys a turn and the Zombies will lose 5-7 models a turn. You can raise these guys back but Skeletons just require less babysitting than Zombies.

Post: #13

(02-02-2012 03:19 PM)Aramoro Wrote:  I really don't think Ghouls are overpriced in the new book. 2 Attacks, Poisonous, T4 with Unbreakable and ability to be healed? That is a reasonable cost.

They get unbreakable via unstable. I'd happily not be unbreakable if that meant I could be steadfast instead on our core. If Ghouls were still competitive in 8th you'd still see people fielding 2-3 big bloccks. All I'm seeing is people fielding min-core and loading up on Special/Rare.

(02-02-2012 03:19 PM)Aramoro Wrote:  As for Zombies Vs Skeletons I think they both have a place. Skeletons are just a lot more durable.

They are slightly more durable against low strength opponents. Against S2-3 Skeletons LA/Shield helps. At S4 the difference shrinks and once you get to S5 the difference is 1/6th. The threatening units in Warhammer aren't S3.

Skeletons are better in combined charges (they 1-2 less losses stops you putting more crumble on something elite) otherwise the extra cost is largely wasted. I started with 3 big Skellie blocks and each time I play I end up dropping more for Zombies.

Post: #14

(02-02-2012 03:52 PM)N1AK Wrote:  

(02-02-2012 03:19 PM)Aramoro Wrote:  I really don't think Ghouls are overpriced in the new book. 2 Attacks, Poisonous, T4 with Unbreakable and ability to be healed? That is a reasonable cost.

They get unbreakable via unstable. I'd happily not be unbreakable if that meant I could be steadfast instead on our core. If Ghouls were still competitive in 8th you'd still see people fielding 2-3 big bloccks. All I'm seeing is people fielding min-core and loading up on Special/Rare.

The way you use 'Competitive' it sounds more like 'Broken good'; I certainly wouldn't abandon ghouls in my list personally.
Granted 'Competitive' players usually strive for what ever is the best, and if it's broken good, they'll snap it up. But still Ghouls are not simply worthless all of a sudden.

Plus the point about filling out Min core in bigger games, it's already hard enough to buy into VC with a full core selection ++Over flow for IoN & Raise Dead, and Ghouls can greatly help reduce that head-ache (Besides Unit Fillers).

Post: #15

So I'll add in my 5 cents as well. As has been said never depend on Zombies or Skeletons to kill anything. Its true that skeletons are slightly better in combat. They may have a chance with magical augments or a bit of luck to win in combat vs. other low strength, low attack, cheap core infantry like clanrats or goblins. That doesn't make them good. Against any decent troops you can expect to loose. Ghouls can kill things on their own without magic, which sets them apart from the other core units as does their price. I think Zombies make a better tarpit than Skeletons as they are cheaper. Skeletons still make a decent bunker, and might be a viable combat choice if you really want to invest points in them by adding character models. They are also probably a decent choice to hold an enemy in place while another unit attacks.
Basically you take skeletons and zombies to hold things up, to have extra units to deploy before your important units, and to assist (in this case more for skeletons) your hard hitting units in winning combats. This is what makes undead armies a bit more tricky to play than other armies. You are almost required to take a lot of units which can't win combat on their own, which means learning to use units together in a grand scheme, which is in my opinion challenging, but also rewarding.

Post: #16

Hey guys

I think the main reason to take zombies over skellies is the ability to grow them above starting size and raising 2d6 instead of 1d6 for skellies. I Often run skellies myself, but that's just because i love the look and feel like they just have to be a part of any undead army, perhaps I'm just old school.

I like the point statet above, you have to bring 25% core (captain obvious), and lets say in a 2k game, 500 points of zombies.... well thats a whole lot of zombies. You need to spend points elswere on core. Skellies, could replace some zombies, but taken in addition its just too many anvils. Hounds... cool enough for some purposes, but you really dont need that many. So Ghouls ends up being a natural choice for me.

Sneglzillsd

Post: #17

Btw, how do you guys run your zombies. Have you guys tried horde formation for some more attacks. I know they dont kill much, but if you play a magic heavy army with a ME, CC and some necro's, things can grow really fast.

Post: #18

(02-03-2012 12:16 AM)Sneglzillas Wrote:  Btw, how do you guys run your zombies. Have you guys tried horde formation for some more attacks. I know they dont kill much, but if you play a magic heavy army with a ME, CC and some necro's, things can grow really fast.

I would never run them in Horde unless I have to. 5-front is the way to go since they dont kill anything. Lines of Zombies is probably even better vs dual-attack opponents or even one attack foes (becuse of 2nd rank attacks), but I dont play them like that since it looks retarded and ruins the feel.

Post: #19

I use zombies as roadblocks, LOS blocks, cannon fodder, necromancer bunker; they're basicly there to die. No one wants to kill them but they'll tie up a unit if you don't. I always take atleast 1 unit of zombies. I always put zombies in ranks of 5x5 with FC, it'll take some time for the enemy to reduce your rank bonus.

I also use skeletons as roadblocks, however they're more relieable becauase of their armor save. They'll need support to kill anything.

Ghouls are my first choise of core. Better stats and poisoned attacks. These guys can kill. My opponents usually ignores these guys for some reason (perhaps the endless hordes of zombies draw their attention) so they'll usually get into combat with full numbers.

Post: #20

(02-02-2012 03:52 PM)N1AK Wrote:  They get unbreakable via unstable. I'd happily not be unbreakable if that meant I could be steadfast instead on our core. If Ghouls were still competitive in 8th you'd still see people fielding 2-3 big bloccks. All I'm seeing is people fielding min-core and loading up on Special/Rare.

Unbreakable/Unstable is just better than Steadfast as it is predictable. There is no chance of you fluffing your Steadfast check and fleeing, you can't be disrupted, you can fight in forests etc. Undead gives you a predictable decline of your units so you know when the combats will end and what you need to do to prolong them if you want to.