Post: #1

So, if a unit fails its fear test and is under the effects of Transmutation of Lead (-1WS), it can't attack and is automatically hit, correct?

How have I missed this in this edition?

Post: #2

I don't think so. The spell takes place in the magic phase -1ws. Then at the beginning of the combat phase a failed fear test ws1.

The effect of the spell takes place at the original ws. The reduced ws is further reduced to 1 due to the failed fear test.

End of combat, ws returned to the original reduced level -1ws.

Post: #3

(02-01-2012 09:40 PM)arbogast Wrote:  So, if a unit fails its fear test and is under the effects of Transmutation of Lead (-1WS), it can't attack and is automatically hit, correct?

Yes.

Post: #4

I'm inclined to agree. Fear reduces the cowering unit's Weapon Skill to 1, and the Transmutation of Lead will incur a -1 penalty with no mention of having a minimum value of 1.

So yes, they'd be hit automatically from what I'm seeing. I also believe that they may not strike back in that phase as well.

Post: #5

No. I'm fairly sure that they would not be hit automatically, as in the "to hit" section it says a 1 always fails.

To wound, however, can be auto.

Post: #6

Transmutation of Lead give them -1 WS in the Magic Phase then they fail the Fear test in the Combat Phase and are reduced to WS1 you don't then get to reapply your Transmutation of Lead. You don't get your WS set to 1, you get it reduced to 1 from whatever it was before.

Post: #7

(02-02-2012 10:55 AM)Aramoro Wrote:  Transmutation of Lead give them -1 WS in the Magic Phase then they fail the Fear test in the Combat Phase and are reduced to WS1 you don't then get to reapply your Transmutation of Lead. You don't get your WS set to 1, you get it reduced to 1 from whatever it was before.

Not sure I agree. That's like saying if Doom & Darkness is cast on a unit during the magic phase, and you kill the character leading the unit (say reducing their LD from 8 to 7), then you don't get to apply the -3 LD from the spell to their now lowered LD in the combat phase.

A negative penalty is always in effect; it's not reapplying, it's simply applying to their stat constantly. If the base stat changes, the spell affects that stat.

Post: #8

(02-02-2012 10:40 AM)Questioner Wrote:  No. I'm fairly sure that they would not be hit automatically, as in the "to hit" section it says a 1 always fails.

To wound, however, can be auto.

Weapon Skill 0 vs Weapon Skill 1+ means they get hit automatically. This is the only instance I know of that this is the case, but they are absolutely hit automatically at Weapon Skill 0

Warhammer - Core Rulebook Wrote:Characteristics of Zero
Some creatures have been given a value of '0' (often shown as a dash: '-') for certain characteristics, which means they have no ability whatsoever in that skill....

If any creature has a Weapon Skill of 0 then it is unable to defend itself in close combat, and any blows struck against it will therefore automatically hit.

Also, I agree that Transmutation (or any hex) does not "reapply" it simply remains in effect. Yes, the WS is reduced to 1, but that is a separate effect from the static -1 penalty.

I don't understand the relevance of people saying that it happens in the Magic phase and not the Close Combat phase. Since when did that ever alter the abilities of a hex, that stays in effect till your next Magic Phase, anyway?

Post: #9

The key is in the wording, Say you cast Transmutation on some Swordsmen, they're Weapon Skill 4. In your Magic Phase you cast Transmutation of Lead on then, they get -1WS and become WS 3. In the combat phase they fluff their Fear test and get reduced to WS 1, they don't get their unmodified WS set to 1 and then Transmutation on top of it. They get their current WS reduced to 1, if it goes down to 0 then you haven't reduced it to 1.

Post: #10

I think this could go either way. The key is whether you take it as lowering the target's unmodified WS to 1 or lowering it to 1 regardless of other modifiers. The rules are ambiguous. I do happen to agree with the WS0 argument, simply because I think that the target's WS is reduced to 1, and the constant -1 modifier continues to subtract from it. Similar to the Doom and Darkness + character death argument.

Post: #11

Transmutation of Lead applies until the next magic phase, so the -1 is in effect regardless of what else happens to the target's WS. GW has already established that hexes apply to units even when stats are changed, using the Inspiring Presence rule on a unit under the effects of Doom and Darkness is still at -3 Leadership, so the same applies here.

While nasty I doubt you'd pull this off more than once, and it can't work against any unit immune to psychology, so you can't really call it over powered. Clever yes, but not over powered.



Pyre

Post: #12

(02-02-2012 04:51 PM)Pyre Wrote:  Transmutation of Lead applies until the next magic phase, so the -1 is in effect regardless of what else happens to the target's WS. GW has already established that hexes apply to units even when stats are changed, using the Inspiring Presence rule on a unit under the effects of Doom and Darkness is still at -3 Leadership, so the same applies here.

While nasty I doubt you'd pull this off more than once, and it can't work against any unit immune to psychology, so you can't really call it over powered. Clever yes, but not over powered.

Pyre

=I didn't say it was overpowered, it simply slipped past my radar. Besides, the look on my opponent's face when a unit of theirs is reduced to WS0 getting smacked by 30 zombies = priceless!

Post: #13

I think it's extremely hopeful think you'll find a Judge who'll back the WS 0 argument. Fear doesn't reduce your unmodified WS to 1, if you reduce it to 0 then you are explicitly not reducing it to 1. The other way round works fine, the thing which reduces you to Toughness 1 followed by the -1 Toughness spell kills the whole unit. But in this case I don't see a reason to reapply the Transmutation after the reduction.

Post: #14

I'd cerrtainly go for the WS0 argument. I can't quite put my reasoning into words so I'll leave it at that.

Post: #15

It's a fine argument as long as you accept that anything which gives a unit +1 WS would mean they were WS 2 if they failed their Fear Test.

Post: #16

+1 to Aramoro.

Post: #17

Agreed, I don't see why that wouldn't be the case. Such as the last Ogre Kingdoms book with the Cathayan Longswords. I feel like modifiers would apply both ways.

Post: #18

(02-02-2012 06:33 PM)Aramoro Wrote:  It's a fine argument as long as you accept that anything which gives a unit +1 WS would mean they were WS 2 if they failed their Fear Test.

Of course it would, it's the same principle.

Post: #19

So what happens if a character with Fencer's Blades fails their fear test? WS 10 or WS 1??

Post: #20

(02-02-2012 09:33 PM)Aeviaan Wrote:  So what happens if a character with Fencer's Blades fails their fear test? WS 10 or WS 1??

Hmm. That's tougher; I'd be inclined to say WS 1 because the rule says it's reduced to 1...but the sword is a lingering effect like the spell.

Dice off?