Post: #1

Hi all!

Now that we're all sinking our fangs into the new book, I thought it might be helpful to compare our 2 main options for "Badass of the Year 2012!"

Please note this is meant as a comparitive, I'm not trying to say one is better then the other, or to push a particular build. It is simply meant as a tool to help people decide what avenue to take with their Lord of the Undead.

STATS COMPARISON

Vampire Lord advantages:
+1WS, +2BS, +1LD

Ghoul King advantages:
+1I

Summary - Not a whole lot of meaningful differences here, I think +1WS (most notably having WS3 enemies hit you on 5's) trumps the change from I7-8. A few things more of note though:

1) As far as I'm aware, BS is a completely useless stat for these 2, purely there for fluff reasons.

2) Having higher LD means if you have both in an army, the VLord will be your general. Also against any "characteristic tests" involving LD (banshee screams, etc.) the VLord is harder to hurt.

SKILLS/ SRECIAL RULES/ MUNDANE EQUIPMENT COMPARISON


Vampire Lord advantages:
1)Equipment options - Cheap ways to get additional stats. Generally you'll be looking for a magic weapon on your Lord but if points are tight or you've got other magic items you want, they're there. Also means the VLord can equip armour (either mundane or magical).

2)Magic - It's pretty obvious the Ghoulking hasn't been paying attention to all those forum posts saying VC NEED magic. The vampire Lord brings along potent magical abilities (up to lvl.4, albeit at a price tag) and the option of Death and Shadow magic (requiring 2 VLords as your general MUST take vampires)

Ghoul King advantages:
1)Infinite Hatred - In my opinion, this ability means the Ghoul King doesn't need ASF. Re-rolls and I8 I think are sufficient for most situations. It combines with his base stats to make an effective combat character even without items.

2)Poisoned Attacks - I'd put this in the same boat as VLord mundane weapons, handy if your on a budget or grabbing a bunch of other magic items, but you'll generally plump for a magic weapon and ignore tis rule. Only other time it would be useful is fighting against something that negates/ destroys your magical weapons...

3)Regeneration(5+) - This seems to be the crutch they've given the Ghoul King after telling him he's got to run around naked. Like Infinite Hatred, it means you don't need to spend up points for saves, though it's not infallible (see "Shiny Bits"). Synergizes well with a Mortis Engine in support to bump that save to a 4+!


Summary - The breakdown between the abilities of the 2 is pretty clear.

- The VLord has armour and magic options and is the only way to make a "caster" vampire.

- The GKing has great special rules to compensate for lack of armour, and open up equipment options for different synergies and builds, but you'll have to settle for Magic Level 1.

STEEDS
Due to both having completely different options, I'll just explain a little about each, as opposed to comparing "advantages"

Vampire Lord Options:
1)Barded Knightmare - Cheap and boosts the lords save. Allows him to ride with units of Cavalry.

2)Hellsteed - Cheap flying option for swooping solo around the battlefield without using power points for fly.

3)Abyssal Terror - Cheap monstrous mount. Handy for lower point games when you want your lord on a big flying gribbly.

4)Zombie Dragon - Expensive monstrous mount - relatively hard to kill and adds some nice punch to the lord whilst still keeping him mobile. Also has cloud of flies to make the lord harder to hit.

5)Coven Throne - Expensive super chariot - relatively hard to kill and adds some nice punch and powerful special abilities to the lord. Less mobile then the flying options though so probably better suited for supporting an infantry line or the like.


Ghoul King Option (singular):
1)Terrorgheist - The GKings only mount option, but it's a doozy! relatively hard to kill and adds some nice punch and mobility. Also has Deathshriek to help whittle down your opponent in that phase between magic and combat...


Summary - Once again the VLord has a lot more options, and is the go-to character for cavalry lists, Whilst the Ghoulking has only 1 option that opens many new tactical possibilities to him.


SHINY BITS

This section will grow with time and peoples experiences, I'll just briefly mention a few points on item/ power suggestions for each character.

Vampire Lord:
- Magic Weapons - Essentially follow the same basis you would for any combat character, but also look for synergy with powers. ASF from quickblood for example, will give you re-rolls to-hit, which combined with a good weapon can be very nasty!

- Magic Armour - Probably the single biggest reason to pick a combat VLord over a GKing would be wanting to strap on some armour. Theres a few decent combo's floating around, including high WS from fencers blades/ Deathknight being combined with Nightshroud or Glittering Scales to make the lord near impossible to hit (add in a zombie dragon for enen more fun!) to good old wardsave armours.

- Talismans - Another primarily defensive slot, This is often reserved for the obligatory wardsave.

- Arcane items - Whether it's sticking a scroll in your pocket or bolstering your magical repetoire, having the option of an Arcane item is always handy.

- Enchanted Items - Often the "leftover points" slot, contains some nice situational items such as Other tricksters shard (Note you never count as being in "base contact" with yourself so combining this with the coven throne can be nasty) or the various potions. The Rod of Flaming Death and Ruby Ring of Ruin fit into this catergory as well, so if you wanted to give your magical offense a little nudge, there is that option as well.

Ghoul King advantages:

One of the main things to remember with a Strigoi is you've already got a built-in regeneration (5+) save and re-rolls to hit. This often allows you to focus on more offensive item setups.(As a side note: yay for strigoi characters that are allowed magic items!!!)

- Magic Weapons - Same as the VLord, you want something to bump up your killing power. Bonus attacks are thought to be the best way to go at the time of writing this, due to having the built-in re-rolls to hit.
- Magic Armour - .................what?

- Talismans - Your Defensive slot. First port of call is generally the Dragonbane gem. You remember that regeneration save you start with? So does your opponent and he'll be throwing flaming attacks at you with wild abandon, knowing you don't have an armour save. That's where this little gem (pun intended) Comes into play with a 2+ wardsave against flaming attacks! Also note that, generally speaking it's not hugely viable to get a standard wardsave as your already toting that lovely regen!

- Arcane items - Yes, I'm serious. slapping a boundspell or a scroll onto your GKing is a handy way to spread your magical options around the army. Once again with your built-in abilities your spending less points on offensive/ defensive upgrades, which means your not sacrificing your effectiveness at your primary role (chewing holes in things) by slipping in an arcane item for utility.

- Enchanted Items - Very similar to The VLords options really, though a mound of attacks with re-rolls to hit combined with Potion of Strength will make any opponent sweat!

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Phew! Sorry about the wall of Text, and that a few points are a bit vague. Please feel free to comment and I'll try and keep this updated as we discover more about our shiny new book and it's options!

I haven't slapped in any sample builds as yet. Thought I'd leave it a little while whilst things get tested (also, I'm sure seperate threads have been made for build examples/ tactics). Also, I believe your lord should be built around the army size/ tactics your using. However, as time goes on if a build or 2 seem to shine as a way to use one character or the other I'll look at posting them up.

Post: #2

Good write up man.

The biggest reason for me is the Ghoul King being the general. 3W T5 isn't what it used to be.. especially with just a 5+ regen save and a Dragonbane Gem. That and the fact he can't be a Lv.4 Wizard.

That's the only reason why I think he's lackluster compared to a normal Lord.

Post: #3

I think the ghoul king is really good for his points, but taking him is basically saying "ok, i going to have 0 magic this game" so giving him bound spells in addition to combat items is IMO a good idea

Post: #4

The ghoul king has the added advantage of letting you squeeze an extra terrorgheist into your armies (as a lord mount tg doesnt use rare allowance). Terrorgheists are pretty damn baddass for a monster- they are basically a hard counter to any monster or large target.
Also, the ghoul king doesnt mean you will have no magic- just plop in a master or normal necro with lord of the dead on a lodestone corpse cart for all of your IoN needs.

If you are looking for a combat vamp, the ghoul king is an okay choice- the regen is nice and infinite hatred means you dont need quickblood that much and can spend on other powers.

Post: #5

This was really useful, thanks!

I was thinking not too long ago about running a Ghoul King on my Terrorgeist for a little more punch.

Post: #6

Ghoul king is built for the sword of bloodshed + red fury combo.

Rerolling poisoned attacks with infinite hatred? Really? Thank you army book. Now all we have to do is give him as many attacks as possible, through magic weapons and staff of damnation.

Don't challenge characters, just kill stuff.

Another good combo is curse of the revnant, aura of dark majesty, skabskrath. and you end up with +2 attacks instead of 3 but gain a few more bonuses for a decent point difference.

Post: #7

(01-28-2012 05:19 AM)drmooreflava Wrote:  Rerolling poisoned attacks with infinite hatred? Really? Thank you army book. Now all we have to do is give him as many attacks as possible, through magic weapons and staff of damnation.

The SGK losses poison if he wields a magic weapon. It's been discussed under here and is based on the magic weapon rules in the BRB.

Post: #8

One thing the ghoul king has going for him is that in 2400pts armies you can easily fit a master necromancer in there aswell.

Post: #9

Yes, my fav setup in 2.4k points is the SGK with red fury, dragonbane gem and potion of strength, add a lvl 3-4 master necro and a lvl 2 vampire. Leaves me with decent magic phase, excelent combat phase and plenty of points to spend on different options.

Post: #10

(02-02-2012 02:51 PM)fjhamming Wrote:  Yes, my fav setup in 2.4k points is the SGK with red fury, dragonbane gem and potion of strength, add a lvl 3-4 master necro and a lvl 2 vampire. Leaves me with decent magic phase, excelent combat phase and plenty of points to spend on different options.

This is exactly what I'm doing 2!

Post: #11

Me too, except I have the ogre blade instead of the potion. S7 all the time is just sweet, especially when you come up against heavily armoured foes. I too have a level 2 with fighty kit and two cheap necros aswell.

Post: #12

A quick note, the SGK is more expensive than the vampire. I think it's something like 20 slaves worth of points. Thats points you could invest and tool him up for his purpose.

At this point i favor the vampire lord. Easy to put a armor save on him. I usually run him with black knights. And with some fighty build. Man those guys can hit hard (the vampires).

Sneglzillas

Post: #13

(02-02-2012 09:56 PM)Mikael.K Wrote:  Me too, except I have the ogre blade instead of the potion. S7 all the time is just sweet, especially when you come up against heavily armoured foes. I too have a level 2 with fighty kit and two cheap necros aswell.

Red Fury, Sword of antiheroes, Dragonbane and Other Tricksters Shard is what I usually run, more exactly.

Since he often sits right in the middle in an block of ghouls, he tend to fight alot of ha,sh t4ish = str6 is perfekt, and an additional attack is nice. Just wish the bugger had ws7!

On the 40 points extra for the King; I think it's an okey tradeoff for re-roll to hit and regen. But I agree that he tends to be a little bit less protected than his Vlord counterpart. But the lack of magic levels is no problem for me since I'm alergic to "put to many eggs in one basket"...

Post: #14

I like the sgk a lot, im leaning towards him over a combat vLord this is more to do with my planned army theme more than any think else lots ghouls and big ghouls,getting magic support from a master necro seems the best thing to do, picked up some good tips from this thread cheers.

Post: #15

I think if you want a cheap unit killer next to a master necromancer he's perfect. If you want to go on and challenge chaos characters, bring the VL. The rerolls and regen is what me make to take the SGK instead, so that i am not tempted to buy expensive tools on him. I take the potion of strength so that my poisoned attacks still work, and i even save some little extra points. But running him with the shard and sword of anti-heroes defenately makes him so much stronger against chaos characters.

Post: #16

Ghoul King's alright, but the lack of defenses will come back to haunt him.

I'll be trying out my own as a fear bomber with skabscrath, but I'm finding the choice between red fury and curse of the revenant (in games where I have the points for either) to be rather difficult. fury is a significant damage upgrade, but with only a 5+ regen (4+ with the engine), I'm worried that three wounds won't be enough to carry this guy between friendly magic phases.

If you are taking the ghoul king, then I view the engine as an absolute must to get the 4+ regen and improve his invocation rolls to something decent, and if you're running the engine anyway you really should throw in a couple more casters and a block of crypt horrors to take advantage of it.

I'm not a fan of the terrorgheist option. With flying, you'll likely be quickly outside of the engine's range, and it won't take much shooting to drop your vamp off his mount with his limited defenses.


In general, the vampire seems to be the superior option of the two. I mean, the 2+ mundane save you can give the vampire is generally as good or better then the ghoul king's 5+ regen - the attack has to be S7 or higher, or ignore armor entirely, for it to be worse. Which means the vampire can come with just as much natural defense as the ghoul king - he just has the option for more if you want it. The fact that more defense seems obligatory anyway only highlights how lacking the ghoul king is in this regard. The only thing the ghoul king really has on the vamp is built in re-rolls, which is great, but not really worth the surcharge and loss of otherwise essential options.

But the ghoul king does have style, and the one that comes on the terrorgheist is a nice model, so I'm still prone to use it now and again. I do appreciate having the option in the book. I do wish it still had the full magic options, though. A level 4 caster ghoul king would be a better fit for a necrarch then a regular vampire lord in my head - what with the lack of armor and the regen to (somewhat) compensate.

Post: #17

It's not that the SGK is survivable compared to the lord. It's just that the build-in options allow you to spend about 300 points in the lord and still have a great troop killer with just enough survivability to be able to put a lvl 4 master necromancer in, even in 2000 points. And of course it also allows the scabscrath next to a save.

Post: #18

(02-03-2012 12:53 PM)Malisteen Wrote:  In general, the vampire seems to be the superior option of the two. I mean, the 2+ mundane save you can give the vampire is generally as good or better then the ghoul king's 5+ regen - the attack has to be S7 or higher, or ignore armor entirely, for it to be worse. Which means the vampire can come with just as much natural defense as the ghoul king - he just has the option for more if you want it. The fact that more defense seems obligatory anyway only highlights how lacking the ghoul king is in this regard. The only thing the ghoul king really has on the vamp is built in re-rolls, which is great, but not really worth the surcharge and loss of otherwise essential options.

And 7 WS makes most rank-and-file to hit us with 5+ instead of 4+. But the GK is still my BFF, there is just something about him

Post: #19

There are way more things that have no armor save compared to no ward save.

Post: #20

(02-03-2012 07:48 PM)Dead Rat Wrote:  There are way more things that have no armor save compared to no ward save.

I don't understand this mate Are you saying wards is more common than regular armor save? For characters or?