Post: #1

Up to the moment I've played 6 games with the new rules, 3 against WoC and 3 against OK, and although I've maintained more or less the backbone of the army, I've tried things such as a fear bomb of Banshee + Wight Kink BSB with Screaming Banner + Vampire with Aura of Dark Majesty and Fear Incarnate which I then substituted by a killy Vampire Lord (Red Fury, Quickblood, Ogre Blade, etc.). At the end, I have the sensation that I was spending 400 points that can be very volatile. It is true that this monstrous vampire can perfectly kill 8 models in a turn, but if you used that points to buy 30 Grave Guard, for example, they'd sure do more than 8 kills per turn and they'd provide you more tactical options during the game. And of course if for example your magic phase is shut down because of Hellheart or dispelling of Invocation of Nehek, there's no risk of a 400-point Vampire Lord dying on crumbling.

All in all, this has lead me to think about minimizing the hero / commander points and just buy the basics, so you can spend the other points in troops which, in some sense, will have a more reliable use. At the moment I was thinking in just running a level 4 Master Necromancer with dispell scroll and a naked level 2 Necromancer in a Corpse Cart with Balefire. Do you guys subscribe somehow this approach or do you think I'm going in the wrong direction?



PS: For you to get an idea of the composition of my army, which intends to be an all-commers list, at the moment I had thought about: 43 Zombies, 20 Zombies (bunker), 36 Crypt Ghouls, 5 Dire Wolves, 5 Dire Wolves, 30 Grave Guards (Banner of the Barrows), 8 Crypt Horrors, 1 Spirit Host, 1 Spirit Host, Mortis Engine (Blasphemous Tome), 3 Cairn Wraiths, Terrorgheist (being these last two options the most subjected to change after they are what I believe I will trade for the Vampire Lord).

Post: #2

I'm totally with you. I have never thought that combat characters are worth their points in 8th and now with the new book we don't have to take a vampire lord at all so why pay extra for combat stats on your caster, unless you want powers for some reason.

Having caster charaters are worth some points but for combats I think you are better of with more units. This of course is only true if the board isn't too crowded so you can actually get that extra unit into combat.

Post: #3

For my 2k im going with a master necro, a hero necro, a l2 vamp with lore of death an a wight king with ogre blade. I feel it is important to have at least 2 or 3 casters to do well in the magic phase.
You do want at least 2 casters with IoN- it is a cheap spell to cast and well worth spamming.

Post: #4

Yes, you will find it hard to keep ur army in march range and of all the other ranges like ION etc, as well. I personally take a castor lord at 2.5k, but in a 1k-2k I'd prolly go with master necro, although I haven't had the chance to yet. MOTBA seems to cost a lot but I love it, can't get with necro, and same with DA.

Post: #5

Another way to look at it is- what will help me win combats?
Take grave guard/wight kings for example.
Say you have a 5 wide, 20 strong unit of grave guard.
Only 10 of those grave guard get to attack (first 2 ranks)
so thats 10 attacks in the combat.
Now, you have 2 choices- a wight king, or about 8 more grave guard.
Now, these 8 additional grave guard will give you the following in combat- +1 to your rank bonus, and maybe help the unit survive longer.
The wight king however, will give you 2 additional attacks at a higher ws, considerably higher ld for the unit (which is important contrary to popular belief) and if you give him magic items, an even greater combat boost to the unit. He will also help the grave guard win more combats, reducing casualties from crumbling (and hence balancing the no wight king options 8 grave guard numbers buff)
With our army having somewhat weak infantry in combat, wight kings, wraiths, banshees and vampires are all a great idea in the units to help us actually win the combats by dishing out more attacks at higher str and using fancy abilities.

edit: As for vampire casters, I would say this- vampires cannot get master of the dead, and they have a high pts cost because of their combat abilities. I only use vampires for their combat ability, as it would be silly to pay all of those pts for their statline and not actually use that statline. Casting is secondary on vampires for me, with the main magic work being done by the master necro (Except in higher pts games where I have a killy vamp lord and can just chuck l4 on him)

Post: #6

I agree that having at least 2 or 3 casters is very important because you need to be able to successfully cast IoN during the game, and the fewer casters you have, the more easy it will be to dispell them all. I want to see if 2 casters more or less survive for this role, but if I see me overwhelmed, I think I'll make the level 2 Necromancer a level 1 and take something out to introduce another level 1.

Regarding winning combats, what you say is totally sensible, Sanai. I was not thinking so much about fielding 40 GG instead of 30 GG with this point saving, but rather including new units. Basically, the question that should be answered (partially through calculations, but unluckily also empirically) is if we are better off by, say, having a vampire with high initiative that deals 3 wounds to the opponent, which potentially can mean 3 less attacks we recieve or at least a +3 to combat resolution, or accepting doing worse in the combat of that specific unit (in principle, not dramatically worse) but with the possibility of doing better in the battlefield as a whole as we have an additional unit that can fulfill a particular role. I don't have a final answer to this yet, so I'll see if I can get something clear...

Post: #7

You do need to remember also that characters give us a good amount of pts and power for our army for a small real world investment- just the cost and painting time of just one model.

Post: #8

Have one Unit with vampyric special rule, otherwise you'll get outflanked, outmanoeuvered or shot to pieces. In my last battle against OK i didn't have a Unit with vampyric.. It was a terrible mistake. He just had to dispell Vanhel's Dance to gain the upper hand.

Post: #9

You also might want to try putting your General on the flank if your opponent keeps outmaneuvering you. If your march bubble is in the center of your line, it's going to be pretty pointless because your total move distance will be restricted by how far the flanks can go (you don't want the center of your line bulging out and getting smashed from three sides). So instead, try popping the general closer to the left or right flank. This way, your line can make a dedicated sweeping motion and try to fence your opponent in. With all of our new fast-moving choices, effecting a breakthrough on one side of the battle line shouldn't be too difficult for the Vamps, and once this is accomplished, you're going to have a huge tactical advantage.

Post: #10

Bravo_10, could you please explain a little bit more this manouver of having your general in a flank? How would this sweeping motion go? Thanks!

Post: #11

Well, with the previous book, it was common practice to put the general near the center of your battle line to give his magical support and marching bubble to as many units as possible. You could then support your forward momentum with Vampire Units (i.e. Blood Knights and/or Varghulves) on the flanks to keep the whole group moving. Now, however, Vampire units no longer have a mini-bubble of their own.

So, I suggest placing your general in the left or right third of the line. He could possibly be in an infantry unit, or he could sit in a cavalry block as well. The goal here is to keep one of your flanks constantly marching. Marching is far more important for the fast movers like Cavalry, so that they can get in good positions to threaten flank charges. With the general deployed towards one of the flanks, he's able to get off some key charges with your hard-hitters, then hopefully break through your opponent's own flanking forces. Once this is accomplished, having him over there for the march bubble becomes even more critical, so that he can assist those flanking units in moving back around to threaten rear-charges and wreak more havoc over the rest of the field. With this strategy, all your main infantry blocks need to do is survive long enough for the 'cavalry' to arrive, and sticking around for a while is something VC troops are quite good at.

Post: #12

(02-05-2012 02:53 PM)Bravo_10 Wrote:  You also might want to try putting your General on the flank...

I do this. I usually have a necromancer bunker in the middle and my general on one of the flanks. I tend to move the opposite flank ahead of the flank which my general is on. My general usually gets into combat last, but when he does he destroyes the opponent's flank and is ready to assist the main line. But I'm still fairly new to VC; I haven't worked on my tactics yet.

Post: #13

Its using a version of a "denied flank." I'll put one or two units on one flank kind of tight in against the middle that can operate independently, like a Varghulf or a Black Coach, to keep the enemy honest. The bulk of my army will be roughly in the middle, or a little off to the strong flank. The general will be deployed more toward that flank, with some of the core just inside the march bubble to start. In this way the strong flank can push up field hard to catch the enemy before he can wheel to face them.

There are two requirements here though: you need chaff to slow the enemy units threatening your weak flank; you need to be able to out deploy the enemy to hide which flank you're over loading as long as possible.

On the OP, I run a combat lord, a master necro, and a necro right now and that's about it. All totaled it comes to around 750 pts or so, and its worked OK. I'll probably shift some things around and try and squeeze in another Red Fury Vampire so I can smash through big blocks all that much faster though.


Pyre

Post: #14

Thank you for the answer, Bravo_10. It seems an interesting tactic if you have a very wide deployment due to lots of units or maybe you're playing on a long table.