Post: #1

Ok, so I thought that it was about time that we start looking at the possible monster mounts for the Legion.

As per the discussion in other threads we need to have two levels, one for Lords only, and one for heroes and vamps.

Admittedly I am not sure what we can have, though ideally I would like it at least 1 to be unique.

So thinking on it, I think we should have a Great Zombie Dragon as one choice. An idea again stolen from the TVC (though to be fair it was my idea ), was that the zombie dragons summoned from the centre of the Plain of Bones were more powerful than VC's zombie dragons as they are the remains of the powerful first generation dragons. It is said Nagash's history that he did raise a massive dragon from the plains, so it would fit.

I was thinking increased S, T, W, but poor WS & I. Also its breath weapon should actually be effective.


Anyone have ideas for other monster mounts? Once we decide on them we can start making up stats.

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Ancient Bone Dragon - 450pts

For many years the dragons have travelled to the Plains of Bones when they knew their lives were nearing the end. At the centre of this place of death, carcasses the size of hills can be found, the remains of the fathers of the drakes. Only the acolytes of Nagash have the power to summon these giants back once more, but to do so gives them a servant that is nigh on indestructible.

M 6 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 7 / T 6 / W 7 / I 2 / A 6 / Ld 5

Special Rules

Undead
Fly
Terror
Large Target


Bones of the Earth
Muscles and skin have long wasted away on these creatures, but the bones they leave behind are held together by a magic so strong that they are almost impossible to break.
The Dragon has the Regeneration special rule.

Father of the Dragons
These beasts are the ancestors of the lesser drakes, and they are a stark reminder that they are not as immortal as some would believe. The sight of the long distant kin used in such a way can deter even the most determined of dragons
An Ancient Dragon causes fear in all other dragons with the exception of Dragons who are ItP.

Violated
To some extent the dragon's spirit clings to its bones, enraged beyond belief at the desecration of its long dead body. At times it grows strong enough to manifest with a roar of pure hate and terror
Once per shooting phase pick one enemy unit within 6" (if in combat, this may only be the unit that the dragon is in BtB contact with). That unit must take an immediate panic check at -2 Ld.

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Dragon Shade - 300pts

Not content with summon the bodies of the ancient dragons, Nagash sought supremacy over their noble spirits as well. In time the most devious of his magics managed to corrupt their souls, chaining them to his command forever

M 6 / WS 6 / BS 0 / S 5 / T 5 / W 5 / I 5 / A 6 / Ld 8

Special Rules

Undead
Fly
Terror
Ethereal
Large Target


Cradle of Shadows
Whilst its ethereal form does not allow any to ride this dangerous creature, its magical nature allows it to takes it master inside itself, delivering them safely to wherever they are commanded
This rule overrides the normal ethereal rule and allows corporeal characters to use the Dragon Shades as mount if the option is available to them.

Essence of Decay
The merest touch from this dragon leeches vitality from its victims. Those who are not slain outright by its claws find themselves ageing rapidly unto decay as the years rush forth to claim them and even their equipment.
At the end of every combat phase every model in BtB contact with the Dragon Shade must take a toughness test. If failed the model suffers a wound, no armour saves allowed.

Will of the Master
Dragons are noble creatures, and though dominated by another's will, an Inkling of their former personality shines through.
If the rider is killed, then the dragon starts is slain outright, no saves are possible against this.

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Fellbeast - 185pts

In the air above Nagashizzar, many terrible creatures swirl and glide around the spires and towers of the fortress. They are an unholy amalgamation of animals, twisted by the warpstone they are exposed to on that fell peak. The opposite of the noble Hippogryphs, they often have a sinuous snake-like body, with the wings of a bat and the head and front limbs of a dragon. However, whatever there varied may be appearence, there is no doubt that these creatrures are deadly, capable of ripping a man in half with their claws, or devouring a horse in a bite.

M 5 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 5 / T 5 / W 4 / I 4 / A 4 / Ld 6

Special Rules

Fly
Terror
Large Target
Scaly Skin (save of 4+)

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Greater Carrion - 30pts

The Land of the Dead lies to the south of Nagashizzar, and in its great expanse the armies of the Tomb Kings can often be seen. Like giant fleshless birds circling above, the Carrion are hidious creatures attracted to the scent of blood and battle. Nagash makes use of these creatures in his forces, and bestows the Carrion upon his generals. this is a great boon, letting them soar above the enemy, and as a steed the Carrion are as vicious as any creature in the desert lands.

M 2 / WS 3 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 2 / Ld 3

Special Rules

Undead
Fly

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Arabian Warsteed Hero Mount +12pts / Lord Mount +18pts

In the deserts of Araby, to the south of the Land of the dead, the armies of the Sultans ride to war on great Warsteeds, large noble beasts with a fiery temperament. Nagash breeds many of these spirited horses for use in his armies, and those living followers of his will often be seen riding to battle atop one of them, ready to charge down his enemies in a mass of Man and Horse all but impossible to stop.

M 8 / WS 3 / BS 0 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 3 A 1 / Ld 5

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Skeletal Steed - Hero Mount +12pts / Lord Mount +18pts

Not content with living steeds, the Great Necromancer and his generals choose the fittest, most bloodthirsty Arabian warsteeds and flay the flesh from their bones with their dark powers. Their lively spirit remains bound to the bones now capable of carrying a man or undead tirelessly over league after league no matter what the terrain. These Skeletal Steeds are given to Nagash's elite, to spurn them on ever faster to greater acts of service to their lord.

M 8 / WS 2 / BS 0 / S3 / T3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 5

Special Rules
Undead

Post: #2

Maybe these dragons could be more skeletal in appearance (or even called Ancient Bone Dragon or something), since they're from the centre of the Plain of Bones. If you wanted increased stats, the High Elf Star Dragon statline would be OK, with the appropriate changes (they have 7WS, 7S, 6A etc.)

Or, if purely increasing their stats wasn't enough, they could have some kind of 'ethereal' qualities, since they're so old / raised by more powerful magics than the VC ones. Not necessarily an Ethereal dragon, but with some kind of Black Knight qualities (although not sure how that'd help) or a ward save or something.

If they were to be more skeletal than a zombie dragon, instead of a -1 to hit in cc from the swarm of flies, they could have -1 to hit at ranged, since arrows pass straight through the holes?

As far as other mounts go, Winged Nightmares would still fit.

Post: #3

The zombie dragon fluff involves the vampire travelling to the plain of bones and raising a dragon from there... So the Legion of Nagash ones should come in two levels, the really big ones, and the zombie ones.

The way I look at it, mounts should come in four levels:
1. Dragons: The big beasties.
2. Manticores: Weaker beasties that still fly, but are less powerful and cheaper.
3. Flying Horse: Pretty much the standard mount, but flying.
4. Horse: A horse, standard mount.

So, for the Legion of Nagash:
1. Skeletal Dragon/ Zombie Dragon
2. Abyssal Terror
3. Carrion Eagle (Like TK carrion)
4. Warhorse/Nightmare

And what about a chariot?

Post: #4

(08-24-2009 12:56 PM)Arion Wrote:  The way I look at it, mounts should come in four levels:
1. Dragons: The big beasties.
2. Manticores: Weaker beasties that still fly, but are less powerful and cheaper.
3. Flying Horse: Pretty much the standard mount, but flying.
4. Horse: A horse, standard mount.

Yep, that's about the way I see things too...

1. Dragon
2. Manticore/Griffin/etc...
3. Pegasus/GrEagle/etc...
4. Horse

Quote:So, for the Legion of Nagash:
1. Skeletal Dragon/ Zombie Dragon
2. Abyssal Terror
3. Carrion Eagle (Like TK carrion)
4. Warhorse/Nightmare

Seems good.

Post: #5

some ideas

1. Giant Ghoul-ok read it in TVC but for a kinda cavalry support guy

2. Skeletal Bird-Ethereal looking kinda of ghosty with a low amount of wounds and toughness but with good saves

3. Zombie Crocodile-Nagash lives near desert desert has river crocs are cool and i just have this picture of a croc on its hind legs witha hero on its back eating through state troopers

4. Deset Worm-able to burrow and surface constantly during game easy to hurt but high wounds due to soft flesh some sort of swallow whole rule

do any of those sound any good

Post: #6

They're from the desert..

so for a lower level monster mount why not a giant scorpion?

Post: #7

Mmm, giant Scorpian sounds good. Perhaps make it like the Wood elf Unicorn/stag, a much bettermountthan a horse, but not a Manticore class beastie.

Post: #8

chariots are big with tomb kings and dark elves and nagash has very strong links to both of those so i would like a chariot mount

also i think a skeletal or ethereal dragon would be quiet nice

heres what i was thinking

Skeletal Dragon-???pts

ws/bs/s/t/w/a/i/ld
4/0/6/6/5/4/1/10 ????

any good also

may take the following abilities

Spirit Dragon-100 points:gains a 3+ ward save

BloodLust-30 points:gains +1 attack and strength but -1 ws

Plague Cloud-50 points:s3 breath weapon ignores armour each succesful kill creates a zombie within 6 " of the unit

Barbed Chains-20 points: enemies striking dragon are at -2 to hit however the dragon loses 1" of ground move and 2" of flying

some more are needed but any thought i just thought a customisable monster allows even more variation and is truly unique

Post: #9

I would go with the bone dragon for the Lord Level monster, as i think we need to keep the army list different to the vampire list and i think the zombie dragon would be too similar. How about:
Bone Dragon
ws,bs,s,t,w,a,i,ld
6,,,0,,7,6,6,5,2,5
special rules
fly, undead, terror, large target
-1 to hit the bone dragon with shooting
some sort of breath weapon
4+ ward vs non-magical attacks?
If the rider is killed the bone dragon automatically dies as if it had failed a crumbling test by its remaining number of woulds
(fluff needed but i'm in a bit of a rush)

I like the idea of a giant scorpion for the hero level monster, i think it would be good and quite hard to kill in a fight but would move quite slowly.

Post: #10

Personally I don't like the idea of a scorpion. They are associated with TK now and I think we should steer clear of that area.

Before we start drawing up rules however I think we should agree on the choices first.

So looking at the discussion so far I like the following:
Ancient Bone Dragon - Powerful undead dragon comparable to Star Dragon. (Lord)
Chariot - I think this should be a heavy chariot to stay away from TK, plus Nagash's chariot was always described as being a heavy one. (Lords & Heros)

Giant Carrion - I do like this idea.

Skeletal Steed - Same as VC.

So still need a hero level monster, but as I said, I dislike the scorpion idea .......

Post: #11

I immagine this army as closer to TK than it is to VC, so definitely throw a chariot into the mix (leave the TK with their own special rule for light chariots).

As for the hero monster, scorpion is very TKish, and although we have stolen a few ideas for this army as a whole from Nagash The Sorcerer fluff, this is a totally different era. Looking at the TK book, and certain other armies, not everyone has the full list from head-to-toe of monsters. Or perhaps, just don't include a basic flyer, and give the carrion multiple wounds and some abilities, maybe Royal Pegasus standard (3 wounds etc.) and skip out on the Hellsteed/pegasus level?

Post: #12

how about some sort of bigger carrion or if you dont like that one then a drake???

also can we have a mount which upgrades can be pruchased for like extra tought skin or something???

thats the one thing i like about the LOTR dragons

Post: #13

But why break tradition? And natural laws. Bears come with claws and thick fur, there is no reason why you should be able to buy thick skin and razor claws for them, it just doesn't make sense.

And the Skeletal Dragons are described in the fluff as being enourmous, having a particular breath weapon etc. They are pretty much the same except for being different sizes (ergo, two levels of dragon).

Drakes are definately not a Nagash thing, more elfish.

The weaker carrion gives a nice option for scouting heroes, so, for the hero/lord-mage monster mount my suggestions are:
-Abyssal Terror, it fits, it really does as it is often associated with powerful nercromancy.
-Fellsteed: I can definately imagine them on a LoTR style flying beast, perhaps ethereal. A sort of evil griffon type thing, Griffons are lions and eagles ('good' animals), these could be snakes and ravens, the evil equivalent.

Actually, I really, really like the idea of a Fellsteed.

My proposed list:
1. Two levels of dragon
2. Fell-steed
3. Greater Carrion
4. Skeletal Steed / Arabian Warhorse
+. Heavy Chariot.

Post: #14

How about something along.... these lines:

Ancient Skeletal Dragon M 6/WS 6/BS 0/S 7/T 6/W 6/I 2/A 5/Ld 5
- Undead
- Black Breath (?), Strength 4 Breath Attack
- 4+ Armour Save & the 'Construct' rule Ushabti have (they don't exactly have scaly skin)
- Incomplete Horror, All range attacks are at -1 to hit it with ranged attacks
- Terror
- Flying
- Large Target

Felsteed / Dreadbeast or whatever we pick as a cool name M 6/WS 5/BS 0/S 5/T 5/W 5/I 4/A 4/Ld 5
- Undead
- Flying
- Terror
- Large Target

Great Carrion M 1/WS 4/BS 0/S 4/T 4/W 3/I 3/A 3/Ld 4
- Undead
- Flying

Skeletal Pegasus M 8/WS 2/BS 0/S 4/T 4/W 1/I 2/A 1/Ld 4
- Undead
- Flying

Nagashizzar Chariot M -/WS -/BS -/S 3/T 3/W 1/I 2/A 1/Ld 3
Skeletal Steed M 8/WS 2/BS 0/S 3/T 3/W 1/I 2/A 1/Ld 3
Crew: A Character and a Pinnacle Guard Guy

Post: #15

I'd drop the Greater Carrions and the Fellbeasts wound statistic by one, to 2 and 4 respectively. Otherwise it looks good.

Post: #16

Arion and Sephiroth have it bang on for me. So the final list looks like this:

1. Ancient Dragon (I dislike the word skeletal in there for some reason) - Lord level
2. Dragon Shade - Less powerful dragon but ethereal (Lord level)
3. Fellbeast (opposite of Hippogriffs) - Lord & Hero
4. Greater Carrion - (Lord & Hero)
5. Chariot (Lord & Hero)
6. Skeletal Steed & Arabian Warsteed (for Nagashi) (all)
   

I think that gives us a very good cross reference and some uniqueness. I also have to agree with Arion I think it would be a bad idea making the monsters upgradeable.

So lets start and do one monster at a time, though the start you have made is great Sephiroth. In fact we will use that as a basis though I think it needs some tweaks.

Ancient Bone Dragon

For many years the dragons have travelled to the Plains of Bones when they knew their lives were nearing the end. At the centre of this place of death, carcasses the size of hills can be found, the remains of the fathers of the drakes. Only the acolytes of Nagash have the power to summon these giants back once more, but to do so gives them a servant that is nigh on indestructible.

M 6 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 7 / T 6 / W 7 / I 2 / A 6 / Ld 5

Special Rules

Undead
Fly
Terror
Large Target


Bones of the Earth
Muscles and skin have long wasted away on these creatures, but the bones they leave behind are held together by a magic so strong that they are almost impossible to break.
The Dragon has the Regeneration special rule.

Father of the Dragons
These beasts are the ancestors of the lesser drakes, and they are a stark reminder that they are not as immortal as some would believe. The sight of the long distant kin used in such a way can deter even the most determined of dragons
An Ancient Dragon causes fear in all other dragons with the exception of Zombie Dragons or Dragon Shades.

*After some thinking I realised that it wouldn't make any sense to have a breath weapon - there is nothing for it to come from! At least a zombie dragon still has a rotting body. So I thought the following might make an interesting alternative*

Violated
To some extent the dragon's spirit clings to its bones, enraged beyond belief at the desecration of its long dead body. At times it grows strong enough to manifest with a roar of pure hate and terror
Once per shooting phase pick one enemy unit within 6" (if in combat, this may only be the unit that the dragon is in BtB contact with). That unit must take an immediate panic check at -2 Ld.


So what do we think?

Post: #17

Looks like a decent list to start working from.

However, the chariot option seems out of place to me. All the armies that I can think of that have a chariot option for a character, also have a chariot entry in their army list.

Post: #18

A heavy chariot with 2 Pinnacle Guard in it wouldn't be out of place in the army list.

I like the Ancient Dragon, has some character. Would have to cost over 400 points with that statline I think. Considering a Star Dragon costs High Elves 370 (and this one has more wounds and some special rules). Also, I'm not sure about the Armour Save being unaffected by strength. How about (Stolen from Durthu, an old Wood Elf treeman hero), -1 from strength when working out how much armour to take off (Net effect: only 7 strength models or models that ignore armour reduce the big dragon to no save), or just reduce the strength of any attack on the Bone Dragon by 1. That Khorne-Lady in WoC has that.

For the Dragon Shade... who would ride that? Revenants?

PS - How about "Ancient Bone Dragon" if you don't like Skeletal. Just a suggestion.

Post: #19

The Dragon shade rules are going to be interested, however I will think of a way for corporeal characters to ride it.

The "Bone" Dragon works much better.

Not too sure about the suggestions you made in regards Bones of Earth rule, if I was going to go with one I would go for the reverse armour piercing rule, though I still prefer mine Perhaps tweak slightly so only strength modifiers do not work on mundane weapons? Still give heroes etc a chance then?

I think a chariot would be fine if we don't have any elsewhere in the army list, it just shows they are reserved for high ranking officials in Nagashs army.

Post: #20

I think as it has a really good stat line and special rules it should have a special rule with a quite a serious negative effect.

I think it should also only have 6 wounds,

"4+ save. This is not affected by strength modifiers nor is it subject the relevant spells in the Lore of Metal."
Sounds very similar to regen to me.
Maby give it regen saying the powerful dark magic intwined within the skellaton pulls it back together even after heavy damage to it, or something like that.