Post: #1

After 8 ed has come out, many of the units in the VC army book has been nerfed, and are no longer really worht spending your points on if you play to win.

What would you like to see changed, both in regards to which units are where in the list? Special rules for units? New units? Etc...

Here are some of my own ideas on top of my head:

-If Dire Wolves include a Doom Wolf, they should be able to march.

-Since the VC's always fight in darkness, I think Fell Bats should be changed dramatically to represent that they come swooping down from the dark skies, grabbing some poor unlucky soul before moving on. I think they should work more like Screamers of Tzentch in that regard. I think that would make them much more appropriate, fun and in line with the fluff.

-Reduce cost of skeletons to 5-6 pts and Zombies to 3 pts. With the new support rules (not to mention Horde rules), things are going to die much quicker, especially unstable units. "Living" units can counter some of this by having the BSB nearby etc, while the undead can't. Also, fear has been drastically reduced as everyone knows.

-Bat Swarms. Not that I have used them much (or at all in 8th for that matter), but they seem way to expensive points-wise. Don't know quite know how I would rat them, but the way they are now they don't really work well in any capacity for their points, and that's a shame.

-Corpse Cart. I think you should be able to place it within a unit if it was used as a mout for a necromancer, replacing normal rank and file, granting look out sir, etc. Maybe rduce points a little since Bound spells now draw from the Power Pool. Haven't really used it to be honest, so theese are just my first impressions.

-I did like that Cairn Wraths and Tomb Banshees are now Hero choices again, but I don't have the WD issue the new rules are in. I quite like it though. Can someone answer me if the costs are the same? Can they have 50 pts of magic items like normal heroes?

-Abyssal Terror. With Terrorgheist now in the list, I'm thinking this can go...

-More Bloodline related Special Characters if the Bloodlines are brought back.

-Maybe some Seperate Bloodline army lists as well? Official ones... This would allow for more diversity, as well as making them more themed. Could also introduce some new units.

-Thralls. I'd like to see some rules for vampire thralls for Von Carstein and Lahmia Vampires.

In general, I'd like to see the army become a bit more of a horde army (not the horde special rule), in that VC armies today tend to have many special choices, expensive characters etc, leaving relativly few points to make the big hordes of walking dead which seem to be one of their major assets in all the warhammer fluff.

That's all that comes to mind at the moment.

Post: #2

- Dire Wolves, I like your idea.

- Skeletons should cost no more than 4-5, yes we have undreakable but also unstable to compensate. Fear is pretty meh

- Zombies need some ind of fix. Just lowering their cost wouldn't do it for me as they would still die before they could do any good at all.
I know they aren't supposed to be good but their squishynes combined with unstable mekes them useless. Perhaps remove unstable from zombies as they are newly dead and thus easier to animate?

- Bat swarms, I never really understood what role these were supposed to fill but they are not cost effective at all. Lower cost.

- Bloodlines, YES BLOODLINES!!!

I agree with ou that we should be a horde army. I want hordes of shambling undead and I want an end to the invocation spam.

Post: #3

(09-02-2011 11:15 AM)Zhatan Wrote:  - Zombies need some ind of fix. Just lowering their cost wouldn't do it for me as they would still die before they could do any good at all.
I know they aren't supposed to be good but their squishynes combined with unstable mekes them useless. Perhaps remove unstable from zombies as they are newly dead and thus easier to animate?

I agree with you completly on the Zombies issue, but truth be said, they have always been utterly useless against the armies which tended to be my oppoents, so stopped using them long ago.
I am working on my own litte side projet here (Legions of Nagashizzar, no affiliation with the Legions of Nagash project here), where one of the army consepts is that you have a Corpse Pile where all killed Infantry, Cavalry and Monstrous Infantry models in the army are placed (as well as any disciples of Nagash which are slain) are placed. Theese can be raised as "Revenant Corpses/Revenant Cavalry/Revenant Hulks), but this something which is only likely to be done by the Army General (Dark Lord of Nagash). I'm leaving the details a little vague for the present, but the idea that I had for the Revenant Corpses (zombies) were as follows:


Revenant Corpse

M 4; Ws 2; Bs 0; S 3; T 3; W 1; I 1; A 1; LD 2

Troop Type: Infantry

Special Rules: Legions of Nagashizzar, Revenants (see p.xx)

Shuffling Horde: If the Revenants are for some reason outside the general’s Inspiring Presence range as well as outside any Necromantic Nexus special rule range (think "Vampire" rule), they revert to their “natural” instincts, which is to rend asunder living flesh and consume it raw. The unit then gets a free reform before moving, and they then move 2d6 (se rules for random movement) towards the closest enemy unit.

The Lost: Being confronted with one’s former allies and friends, and having to “kill” and behead them to give them eternal peace can be more than a little challenging for most enemies, and can severely disrupt cohesion and fighting formations as they struggle to deal with this. When in close combat with a unit of revenants, they cancel the same amount of rank bonus as they themselves have at the beginning of the combat (i.e. a unit of 15 revenants, five models wide with a +2 rank bonus, also negate two points of rank bonus of the enemy, so that a +3 would become a +1 instead). In a multiple combat, all enemy units suffer the same penalty. If the Revenant Corpses lose their rank bonus (being charged in the flank or rear, etc) this special rule is negated. Units that are Immune to Psychology do not suffer this effect.

Arms of the Damned: The Revenants are considered to have the armour of the majority of the corpses used. The Revenant corpses are considered to be armed with a hand weapon, even if the model used has something else, as they barely have the ability to wield a sword, and prefer to use their hands and teeth to rend and tear their victims apart.

Revenant Rule: Fresh walking corses can be quite tough to deal with, effortlessly shrugging off injuries which would kill a lesser man. To represent this, all attacks with a Strength (after all modifications)equal to or below the Revenant's Toughness that successfully manages to wound the Revenant, must be re-rolled (i.e. all S3 or less attacks must re-roll to wound).


I think this will make "zombies" much more fun to use, and actually give them some tactical function which today can be done better by just about any other unit (Skeletons and Ghouls). Also as a note, there will be no raisong of any units beyond their original size in my Legions of Nagashizar army. Just new revenant units, and re-raising those of the origianl unit.

Post: #4

(09-02-2011 11:15 AM)Zhatan Wrote:  - Skeletons should cost no more than 4-5, yes we have undreakable but also unstable to compensate. Fear is pretty meh

The reason I wrote 5-6 was that i thought Light armour was mandatory, and the spear was the only option. But, the idea was to make them comparable to the Tomb Kings Skeletons in any case.
They shouldn't be cheaper than in the TK army, since VC's have potential better Lords/Heroes to boost them with in close combat.
But I think we are in agreement. They cost way to much in the VC list now, and prevents it from becomming a proper "Horde" Army, which is why VC most list tend to be Ghoul armies nowdays

Post: #5

(09-02-2011 11:34 AM)Uziel Wrote:  The Lost: Being confronted with one’s former allies and friends, and having to “kill” and behead them to give them eternal peace can be more than a little challenging for most enemies, and can severely disrupt cohesion and fighting formations as they struggle to deal with this. When in close combat with a unit of revenants, they cancel the same amount of rank bonus as they themselves have at the beginning of the combat (i.e. a unit of 15 revenants, five models wide with a +2 rank bonus, also negate two points of rank bonus of the enemy, so that a +3 would become a +1 instead). In a multiple combat, all enemy units suffer the same penalty. If the Revenant Corpses lose their rank bonus (being charged in the flank or rear, etc) this special rule is negated. Units that are Immune to Psychology do not suffer this effect.

I loooooooooooove that!

Post: #6

[/quote]

I loooooooooooove that!


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thanks. Glad you liked it.
With the new Fear/Terror rules nerfed (fear especially), I looked to find a way to represent the danger of zombies, the way they are presentd in the various warhammer novels etc, especially the Nagash triology.

Post: #7

I'd love to see useful zombies and a more viable skelly cost. Also...as a somewhat dedicated Lahmian player...I...want...Bloodlines! Zombies could use a new stat line. It would be really cool if they were stronger and tougher. Bring them more in line with new horror film zombies-fast, wrap-around, tough to kill. I agree that there should be some sort of effect on living troops fighting the guy that was just cut down next to them. Skellys, well, they are over priced as most everyone agrees. I'd also like to see a viable zombie dragon. TG is nice, but I've always been a sucker for dragons. I nearly forgot, standard bearer and musician options for ghouls...yes please.

Post: #8

zombies should be at least 2 points, They are honestly worth, well , about 1, but that would be just bonkers. Gnoblar fighters 2 points, and they get T3, and a higher iniative and weapon skill. LD is higher as well, but that is not important to zombies.

Post: #9

(09-02-2011 07:44 PM)Jacques Dauger De Cavoye Wrote:  zombies should be at least 2 points, They are honestly worth, well , about 1, but that would be just bonkers. Gnoblar fighters 2 points, and they get T3, and a higher iniative and weapon skill. LD is higher as well, but that is not important to zombies.

Yeah, compare them to skavenslaves who cost half of what zombis do currently.
Slaves has 1 higher WS, S, T and 3 higher I.
And if you keep them close to your general and BSB as you should you get LD 10 rerollable LD tests on them + they are expendable so you can shoot in CC against units engaged with them.

Yup, cost seems about right...

Post: #10

Staying away from point costs, I'd like to see

1) Bloodlines re-installed. Of course. GW were on the right track with the 6th ed book, but lost their way.

As for the rest -

* power level kept at least the same, preferably taken up a notch or two. Don't nerf us. I want a multitude of competitive builds.

* in-character army special rule. Undead doesn't cut it with the Unstable shackles. Everyone laughs at Fear these days. We need something that spins on the night/darkness theme.
Maybe the swarms of bats, the dark clouds and the swirling mists surrounding the army of the night decrease enemy LOS by a certain amount every time a VC unit is targeted by a ranged attack.
Or maybe the swarms of bats and flies accompanying the Vampire Count armies cause all enemies - even ITP enemies - to pass a Ld test in every round, or hit at -1 in close combat (in other words, as if Fear affected even ITP units).

* Zombies - Make them good enough to deploy. Give them a funky special rule or two.

* I fondly remember the rules from Army of Sylvania - make something out of that please. It was so in-character for von Carsteins.

* Why can't vampires be invigorated by blood (killing enemy models) without a stupid magical sword? It's what they are FFS! Vampires should always be able to heal themselves up again without having to rely on magic. If possible without becoming unbalanced, I want the rules to reflect this. Probably difficult to balance right.

* Corpse Carts are our best models, imo. Let their rules allow me to field them in a tournament as a viable choice.

Post: #11

(09-02-2011 06:42 PM)Layla Wrote:  I'd love to see useful zombies and a more viable skelly cost. Also...as a somewhat dedicated Lahmian player...I...want...Bloodlines! Zombies could use a new stat line. It would be really cool if they were stronger and tougher. Bring them more in line with new horror film zombies-fast, wrap-around, tough to kill. I agree that there should be some sort of effect on living troops fighting the guy that was just cut down next to them. Skellys, well, they are over priced as most everyone agrees. I'd also like to see a viable zombie dragon. TG is nice, but I've always been a sucker for dragons. I nearly forgot, standard bearer and musician options for ghouls...yes please.

It seems to me that most people want the Bloodlines back. I'd like to see 5 seperate army list in one book to be honest (seperate list for each bloodline). Most units would be found in most of the lists, but I'd like to see some new and unique units for each as well.

Regarding zombies, I think they should be fixed so that they resembled the horror of the newly ressurected, i.e. horror film zombies. I think re-roll any successful to-wound rollsas I described above would do that quite nicely. You'd want to bring your great weapons, halberds, Flaisl, Morning Stars etc along to bring them down easily. This would give them a tactical use, such as missile screening vs bows etc, as well as make them mouch tougher to deal with for the "average" trooper (and by that I mean Empire spearmen and the like).
Maybe they should have some ability to counter Steadfast if they have more ranks than enemy unit? That would grant them a sort of "fear" ability even though fear has been nerfed.

Haven't got much experience with the zombie dragon. Thought is was quite bad compared to other dragons for one thing, and I've never been a big fan of having my characters on monsters. I know it now has Thunderstomp, and tham makes it a bit more killy, but I haven't tried it in 8th at all, so I truly can't say much about it. Maybe someone else has more experience with it. anyone?

I think standards and muscicians would be excellent on ghouls, but not really in line with the fluff to be honest, and I think that would absolutly eliminate the use of skeletons as they are now. So I must say that I vote no on that issue. I quite like the skulking, critter-like aspect they have now, and I think a standard is something for units that have some pride in themselves etc...

Post: #12

(09-02-2011 07:44 PM)Jacques Dauger De Cavoye Wrote:  zombies should be at least 2 points, They are honestly worth, well , about 1, but that would be just bonkers. Gnoblar fighters 2 points, and they get T3, and a higher iniative and weapon skill. LD is higher as well, but that is not important to zombies.

Hehe. I really can't argue with that, perhaps with the exception that at 2 pts they would become incredibly reliable speed bumps for their point cost, especially if they can be buffed by summoning. But again, I'm not sure that that argument even holds, since they ae so pathetic as they stand now.
I do think however, that at such a low point cost, they could become to usefull (even if they are not that godd at fighting) in the same way that skavenslaves are today. If that is a bad thing or not, all depends one one's view I guess.

Post: #13

(09-02-2011 09:38 PM)N.I.B Wrote:  Staying away from point costs, I'd like to see

1) Bloodlines re-installed. Of course. GW were on the right track with the 6th ed book, but lost their way.

As for the rest -

* power level kept at least the same, preferably taken up a notch or two. Don't nerf us. I want a multitude of competitive builds.

* in-character army special rule. Undead doesn't cut it with the Unstable shackles. Everyone laughs at Fear these days. We need something that spins on the night/darkness theme.
Maybe the swarms of bats, the dark clouds and the swirling mists surrounding the army of the night decrease enemy LOS by a certain amount every time a VC unit is targeted by a ranged attack.
Or maybe the swarms of bats and flies accompanying the Vampire Count armies cause all enemies - even ITP enemies - to pass a Ld test in every round, or hit at -1 in close combat (in other words, as if Fear affected even ITP units).

* Zombies - Make them good enough to deploy. Give them a funky special rule or two.

* I fondly remember the rules from Army of Sylvania - make something out of that please. It was so in-character for von Carsteins.

* Why can't vampires be invigorated by blood (killing enemy models) without a stupid magical sword? It's what they are FFS! Vampires should always be able to heal themselves up again without having to rely on magic. If possible without becoming unbalanced, I want the rules to reflect this. Probably difficult to balance right.

* Corpse Carts are our best models, imo. Let their rules allow me to field them in a tournament as a viable choice.

I think that if proper bloodlines was brought back, that the power level would be easier to balance against other armies, and fighting VC's would be more fun for other armies as well, providing a variety of challenges. and also, if there are so many vampire count players, diversifying the models for the various bloodline armies should be doable for GW. I'd like to see some of the army's power be transferred from the characters and over to the troops, but I think that would solve itself quite nicely with the Bloodlines brought back.

I've had similar thoughs as you regarding the night/darkness theme. Some army special rule would be very much according to the fluff, and would also be a very cool. Not really sure what I would go for though...

Zombies.. I think just about everyone agrees on that. Maybe they could have some optionsin varying Bloodline armies, with Necrarch having the most dangerous zombies etc..

I think your idea of Vampires healing themselves has a lot of merit to it. I think it would have to have some limitations though (maximum increase of 1 Wound each turn or something similar), as I don't see him having that much time in close combat to indulge himself... Maybe he could get more in a challenge?

Haven't tried Corpse Carts, but if they are too good for their points, then maybe they could be reduced somewhat, opening for other units to become better instead. I do likethe model, and it's function. Maybe it should have been reserved for joining zombie units only, since it is a CORPSE cart, and I imagine they are that fresh.. :-P

Post: #14

Nerf Corpse Carts, why? They suck.

Post: #15

(09-03-2011 06:55 AM)N.I.B Wrote:  Nerf Corpse Carts, why? They suck.

I might have misunderstood you there when you said best models. hehe I've never used the corpse cart myself as I haven't really updated my VC army in a long while.

I do think however, they they would be an excellent choice for making zombies a viable option if its rules were changed for both it and the zombies. I quite like the model, so I wouldn't like to see it go. Also, I like the idea that if you field a necromancer and have it as a mountm then he is "in charge" of the "lesser undead (zobies), while the vampires claim the right to lead the better ones (skeletons/ghouls) etc..

Post: #16

(09-03-2011 10:44 AM)Uziel Wrote:  

(09-03-2011 06:55 AM)N.I.B Wrote:  Nerf Corpse Carts, why? They suck.

I might have misunderstood you there when you said best models. hehe I've never used the corpse cart myself as I haven't really updated my VC army in a long while.

I do think however, they they would be an excellent choice for making zombies a viable option if its rules were changed for both it and the zombies. I quite like the model, so I wouldn't like to see it go. Also, I like the idea that if you field a necromancer and have it as a mountm then he is "in charge" of the "lesser undead (zobies), while the vampires claim the right to lead the better ones (skeletons/ghouls) etc..

Yeah he meant it's a good looking model but the corpse cart is pretty bad in game imo. Abilities can be good but mostly against HE.

Post: #17

I just really want to see some more viable core options....and better looking core options at that. Only ones I actually LOVE are the skellies. Ghouls look fine, but I basically hate everything else. same for specials, what's up with the bats?! Further more, Does anybody else think it would be cool to have a liche/master necromancer leading the force? The problem with Vamps are that they are supposed to be these rare super powerful creatures, but they are all over the place, and because of their hybrid nature, they cost more than they should be. Half the reason are Vamps are so expensive is not because they are level 4 mages, but because they are level 4 mages with 2+ armor and WS7, Str5, T5 I7, you get it. Maybe with bloodlines we could be able to see vampires dedicated to one aspect of the game. Like Necrarchs or Blood dragons at opposite ends of the spectrum. And if you still wished for a hybrid lord, then you could customized in between.

Post: #18

Agreed on the liche..mostly because I have the old school liche king and several liche models. Thank you Ebay gods. :)As for the vampire bloodsucker w/o a sword..perhaps a 5 or 6+ regen roll only when a wound is dealt would work? As for the ghouls having a SB and musician, I was thinking something along the lines of the inbred peasants simply mimicking what they see on the battlefield. I also have to agree that with the nerfing of fear our army has lost a lot of its flavor. And now that I think about it, I'd love to see something along the lines of werewolves as monstrous infantry. Perhaps something along the lines of lesser varghulfs(not the model, but special rules). Lastly, I would like to see any points we spend on core...count towards core. I mean...what the?!

Post: #19

(09-03-2011 06:53 PM)Jacques Dauger De Cavoye Wrote:  I just really want to see some more viable core options....and better looking core options at that. Only ones I actually LOVE are the skellies. Ghouls look fine, but I basically hate everything else. same for specials, what's up with the bats?! Further more, Does anybody else think it would be cool to have a liche/master necromancer leading the force? The problem with Vamps are that they are supposed to be these rare super powerful creatures, but they are all over the place, and because of their hybrid nature, they cost more than they should be. Half the reason are Vamps are so expensive is not because they are level 4 mages, but because they are level 4 mages with 2+ armor and WS7, Str5, T5 I7, you get it. Maybe with bloodlines we could be able to see vampires dedicated to one aspect of the game. Like Necrarchs or Blood dragons at opposite ends of the spectrum. And if you still wished for a hybrid lord, then you could customized in between.

I think that if Bloodlines are brought back (and done properly with seperate army lists/units) and zombies are fixed, that would make the core options more viable. I like the idea of the Von Carsteins fielding levies, Necrarchs having experimental "zombies" as their base core unit, etc.. I do think some new units are required though.
I have to admit that I quite like the bats, as they fit the theme (at least in a Von Carstein/Strigoi) army. What I don't like however, are their current rules. That goes for the Dire Wolves as well to a certain extent.
I quite like the idea of the Necromancer General (lvl 3-4 etc), but I'm not sure that I think it fits so well with the theme of the current list. It should however be quite easy to make their very own list if Bloodlines were introduced. I do think however, with the relativly small number of books to be found in the Old World which contain the higher mysteries of Necromancy, that most Necromancers would sooner or later have to travel to Nagashizzar to gain more knowledge, and this being caught in Nagash's spider web. There are offcourse the rare exception (Kemmler and the Doomlord of Middenheim come to mind) but in reality, if mere mortals started to accumulate tthis kind of knowlege somehow, I think that Vampires (Necrarcs especially) would soon be after them to claim their secrets for their own.

Post: #20

(09-03-2011 07:42 PM)Uziel Wrote:  I have to admit that I quite like the bats, as they fit the theme (at least in a Von Carstein/Strigoi) army. What I don't like however, are their current rules. That goes for the Dire Wolves as well to a certain extent.

I quite like the idea of the Necromancer General (lvl 3-4 etc), but I'm not sure that I think it fits so well with the theme of the current list. It should however be quite easy to make their very own list if Bloodlines were introduced. I do think however, with the relativly small number of books to be found in the Old World which contain the higher mysteries of Necromancy, that most Necromancers would sooner or later have to travel to Nagashizzar to gain more knowledge, and this being caught in Nagash's spider web. There are offcourse the rare exception (Kemmler and the Doomlord of Middenheim come to mind) but in reality, if mere mortals started to accumulate tthis kind of knowlege somehow, I think that Vampires (Necrarcs especially) would soon be after them to claim their secrets for their own.

Oh, I'm not saying I don't like the rules/fluff of that bats necessarily, but I find the models to be abhorrent. As for necromancers. They would be great leaders for small point battles, representing an overly ambitious Dark Mage trying to take power. Whereas Large point battle would see Vampire lords or Liches, as you said, inexperienced necromancers may find themselves becoming servants to the undead masters. Of course this doesn't mean that you wouldn't see the rare, independent, Necro lord.