Post: #1

Greetings,

With the overall European growth of fear against foreigners (especially islamic people), I now look in fear at our very own standards. And that is the freedom of speech, and more importantly, freedom of opinion. I feel that some people take this idea way too far, and not on here, but in everyday life. I see that arguments and opinions are forced through everyone's throat in everyday conversations, as normal as they can be.

Let me be clear about this. In politics, in your study, at work, it's ok to be argumentative and speak up to other's ideas. But when you talk about a concert or speaking about computer programs you use, when is it over the top to be argumentative? When do you go too far?

I have a friend, let's call him Bob, who doesn't like 'Hyves' (the Dutch equivalent to Facebook). Now, the other day I visited him with 2 other friends, let's call them Tom and Mark.

The topic came up that I wanted to visit Tom and that we'd have to keep in touch through Hyves or phone (Tom lives in another city). Bob heard this and immediately stated that 'Hyves is stupid and girly stuff'. At this, I couldn't but feel a little bit embarrassed. Not about his opinion, but about his behaviour to burn us down, whilst we're one of his best friends.

Tom and I responded that we could keep in touch like that, along with other people we know from other cities (people we don't see every day). Bob responded that MSN should be used for that and subsequently I said that's the program used by 12 year olds and older men looking for you-know-what.

I couldn't help myself to retaliate in such sense, because I think it was completely idiotic to burn down friends' utilities, claiming you know best and use the right programs. He was dead serious in that respect, not trying to be funny in any way (if that was the case I would have responded differently).

Isn't that absurd? It left me in doubt.. I mean, I could have responded different, saying I don't like the tone and act on that. I feel that's the right way, but it's tiring. Not because you have to do it, but because it's just one of the numerous times I'd have to act upon. There have been countless of these instances, even with my very own brothers. So far I have only acted once in the correct way, because often at the very instance, I seem to be stunned.

But I feel that many people are like this. Too arrogant to understand to bring up a little bit respect for others, to just let people be in their own way. There are very few people who are cool enough to let you be who you are and not argue you in a way in normal conversations. In some way, these people are unique and I should value them more. And I'm talking about perhaps 5 people out of the 5000 people I have met in my life (either directly or indirectly met, indirectly as in heard them overheard... it's not so hard to hear them and place them in either one of the category).

People seem to enforce your opinion on you. They want you to change, and base their argument because of the sake to argument, no matter what you feel or think. Burn you down, ridicule you to gain popularity...

The other day, I heard a girl in my study talk about where she came from. They host a famous concert there, but I didn't hear her correctly, mistaking the name for 'ping pong'... (it sounds remarkably similar). "I said 'I don't know of a ping pong hall." (what did I know?) At that she responded "are you stupid? You don't know [concert name]?". Once again, a case of lack of respect, arrogance and completely walloping over your feelings. Just because of a misunderstanding. I think it was completely incorrect the way she responded, because it's offensive to me.

My brothers the other day, talked about a girl who they have known since they were little. They don't like her, because she spams all these messages on Hyves (all of us have her on Hyves). One of my brothers really went on with it, started to swear, even using the disease that killed that girl's mother. At that, I responded that it was lack of respect. In which he responded that it was his opinion. What the brick?

Anyhow, it came down to an agreement that he didn't speak in such way anymore about it in my near presence, and so far he did hold to that oath. That's probably the first time I spoke up against this arrogant, respectless behaviour to seems to grip the Dutch community tightly.

It felt good, though. But sometimes I seem I'm one of the only people that want to speak up to that (I know one other in my entire life who consistently does it). Even most of the 'cool' people seem to go with the flow, not bothering to correct it.

But people need to understand we need to respect, not ridicule, others. We have TV commercials about 'mutual respect', but I don't think this is possible if we don't put up some standard to behave upon, in a correct way.

End of my rant I guess.

Post: #2

I agree full on with what you're saying. The lack of respect seems to predominantly (From my end) affect/effect Americans. in my opinion, and I've spoken this to my friends, Americans are arrogant douchebags. In a collective sense, and not speaking on a case by case basis, but the face we present to the world is that of arrogance and complete disrespect to those we believe lesser, and anyone we consider a threat we court until we can stick a knife in them. The Cold War is a good example of that.

Anyways.

I also have friends. Since you took the name Bob, we'll call him Steve. Steve is driving in Japan. Japanese, like British people and most of the world know, drive on the left side of the road. Steve has this constant habit of speaking out against japanese drivers like they're some sort of mentally challenged child.

'If you drove on the right side of the road!'
'If this road was wide enough to fit a go-cart on...'
'If these Japs would actually learn how to drive!'

Etc, etc. I left out a lot of the swear words involved. Now, on Steve's behalf he's a good guy. He's got a great heart, and is good to his friends and stays out of trouble. But when it comes to other cultures or ideas, even when on foreign soil he is completely disrespectful of their ways, beleifs, ideals, and habits. This burns me to no end, and I've spoken to him about it, and he just can't seem to get himself out of that rut.

I play with little plastic soldiers. I've been attacked almost like what you described with 'Hyves' (And that's a really interesting name, what's the translation into english?). There's an automatic assumption people get about certain things in life, as is combined into culture or habitual practice at the home front, that in some times seems to go too far. Their own preconceptions of a topic/function/idea/nationality is all they see, and they speak on it due to our 'Rights' that we believe we carry no matter our place in the world.

Americans carry America with them, apparently. Even though in America half the crap I've seen done wouldn't happen.

Free Speech is all fine and dandy, but easily abusable. Whenever I read in the papers about that Church in Topeka, Kansas that protests the funerals of Marines my vision goes red and I feel like Konrad. These church goers claim they're following the will of God, and use the laws of free speech to substantiate their claim to protest Funerals of Marines coming back in coffins. They come right up to the ceremony, at times less than 100 feet from the service, and wave some flags that I really don't feel like repeating.

That is too far.

Steve in the car is going too far.
Your friend defaming 'Hyves' is going too far, because he's irresponsibly making you uncomfortable and imposing his opinion upon you in a method that's a bit rude and confrontational.

Is your friend illegal? No.
Is Steve illegal? No.
Are they both rude and need to learn lessons in civility? Indeed.

The general lack of Respect that the world has come to today contributes greatly to this. With everyone feeling high on their horse of Unique and privileged status, they feel the need to decry others since what they know is best for them is best for everyone else as well. They fail to see outside their little cubicle, or their air conditioned home and see that other people are different, and what you're saying/doing might be an improvement in your eyes (Larger roads in Japan, Less pedophiles on MSN) might lead to something unforeseen and not entirely good in the end. (Larger roads in japan=less housing space, less pedophiles in MSN messenger will mean more peeping toms in DoN's windows)

Lack of respect and common sense are the final factors.

Post: #3

Come on guys, this isn't about free speech, it's just a moan about people saying things you don't want to hear. We hear things we don't want to, that's the way interpersonal relationships are, & we shouldn't be criticising a basic human right for allowing people to say what they think. We are perfectly within our rights not to talk to someone about something, just as we are doing no wrong by telling them exactly how we feel, just as we are within our rights not to invite them to a party.*

The answer, I feel, is not to argue about how free we should be and how free is 'too free', it is to educate & be educated ourselves, the more we know and understand the more we can understand others' points of view and find common ground, or disagree if that is how we feel. It does trouble me that ignorance & prejudice are (chaste & holy) bedfellows & many people are too ingrained in their socio-political rut to accept any view other than their own (I often think I am, then I remember that it's the best rut to be in, like every other rut). As I say, knowledge & understanding are the cure for ignorance & prejudice, though how these vaccines are to be administered is not something I'm qualified to comment on.

I will never begrudge anyone saying what they thing, though I may disagree in he strongest terms, because that would make the other within their own right, by precedent, to begrudge me my own views. In political terms, 'to begrudge' is 'to censor' & I have a big problem with censorship.

*I don't get invited to many parties.

Post: #4

Onikaigo Wrote:Etc, etc. I left out a lot of the swear words involved. Now, on Steve's behalf he's a good guy. He's got a great heart, and is good to his friends and stays out of trouble. But when it comes to other cultures or ideas, even when on foreign soil he is completely disrespectful of their ways, beleifs, ideals, and habits. This burns me to no end, and I've spoken to him about it, and he just can't seem to get himself out of that rut.

I basically have the same problem. They are good guys, sometimes even family, but they sometimes just seem disrespectful. I think it's sometimes some kind of leftover childish behaviour, because you often hear kids say "that's stupid", who are simply dead honest. Not to blame them, but bad parenting could be related to respectless behaviour.

Onikaigo Wrote:I play with little plastic soldiers. I've been attacked almost like what you described with 'Hyves' (And that's a really interesting name, what's the translation into english?)

Indeed, I think most of us don't fear to admit to random people they play Warhammer. If somebody asks what your hobbies are, I doubt you'll say 'Warhammer' right away, maybe later in the conversation. Because of fear being called names.

The word 'Hyves' is just as random as Google, it doesn't have meaning in Dutch. It does sound like the English word 'hive'. Which could be considered that, as it's just on big hub. Just like 'to google' seems to be an accepted new verb (at least in the Netherlands), so is 'to hyve'.

I'm not really going after the cultural differences people are respectless to, but I can you make the same assumption as you are abroad, after all. I was primarily interested in your opinion about people talking about/to other people, in the same culture. I often seem to feel that people look down upon others less fortunate, and mock with them. And I just think that's wrong. The same goes for treating people when you have befriended them.

It's just plain weird to call someone stupid if he did, in essence, nothing wrong. If you didn't hear someone very well, because you're in a loud environment, and ask a person to repeat themselves, it's nearly as common to hear someone respond 'Are you deaf or something? [restate the previous]' than the '[Restate the previous]'.

Ophidicus Wrote:Come on guys, this isn't about free speech, it's just a moan about people saying things you don't want to hear. We hear things we don't want to, that's the way interpersonal relationships are, & we shouldn't be criticising a basic human right for allowing people to say what they think. We are perfectly within our rights not to talk to someone about something, just as we are doing no wrong by telling them exactly how we feel, just as we are within our rights not to invite them to a party.

This is completely true. But, most people seem to fall back on this right when they are disrespectful, and that's simply wrong. It has nothing to do with 'freedom of opinion' in essence, because there are numerous ways to respond in a conversation, but they way you do it, defines it's within respectful boundaries or not. And that's the problem: people seem to forget these boundaries, or have never learnt them.

If I say 'I do not like a red Ferrari, I'd rather have a Porsche.'
Maybe my friend would respond in 'That's idiotic. A Ferrari looks way and drives better than any Porsche and you're a fool for thinking that.'
But he could also respond 'I disagree/think you're wrong. A Ferrari portrays a lot more class and often drives better than a Porsche, in my opinion.'
There's a huge difference. And most people tend to lure themselves into the first response, maybe less bad as it appears above. I feel that people only respond so drastically like the first response when they think they know a lot about. Topics they are not knowledgeable about, seem to get a lot more hesitant responses.

I agree with the rest basically. There needs to be a way to change the minds of people in that case, because it seems to only get worse. It looks bad on them and yourself if you interact with them, and in the end we all want a happier world...

Post: #5

Quote:But when it comes to other cultures or ideas, even when on foreign soil he is completely disrespectful of their ways, beleifs, ideals, and habits. This burns me to no end, and I've spoken to him about it, and he just can't seem to get himself out of that rut.

This isn't just an American thing though, plenty of Europeans are like this too. I don't know if its a subconscious remnant of white imperialism or what. Having said which, I suspect plenty of people from all over the world are actually just as bad, you just don't hear about it as its all said in other languages.

The thing that really f**ks me off is when some drooling moron makes those retarded 'engrish' jokes about people who are speaking English as a second language, yet the comedian himself can't speak a word of any other language.

Quote:If somebody asks what your hobbies are, I doubt you'll say 'Warhammer' right away, maybe later in the conversation. Because of fear being called names.

I'm not ashamed of what I do. If someone is going to be a dick about it, I'll tell them where to go. If I'm talking to someone who can't even hold a conversation without acting like a child then I'm wasting my time anyway.

You are free to say what you want, and you should be prepared to accept the consequences. Sometimes that will be nothing, but if you say the wrong thing in the wrong company you might get a surprise. I once saw my mate's brother kick the living sh*t out of someone who started mouthing off about 'pakis' without knowing my mate's father is Indian. Frankly, he got what he deserved.

Post: #6

Johnny B Wrote:

Onikaigo Wrote:But when it comes to other cultures or ideas, even when on foreign soil he is completely disrespectful of their ways, beleifs, ideals, and habits. This burns me to no end, and I've spoken to him about it, and he just can't seem to get himself out of that rut.

This isn't just an American thing though, plenty of Europeans are like this too. I don't know if its a subconscious remnant of white imperialism or what. Having said which, I suspect plenty of people from all over the world are actually just as bad, you just don't hear about it as its all said in other languages.

The thing that really f**ks me off is when some drooling moron makes those retarded 'engrish' jokes about people who are speaking English as a second language, yet the comedian himself can't speak a word of any other language.

I'm speaking purely from an American position. I'm American Military in an overseas base, and I see this with 80% of all military members, civilians, and families over here. It's the only perspective I feel I can speak on, so I did.

Johnny B Wrote:The thing that really f**ks me off is when some drooling moron makes those retarded 'engrish' jokes about people who are speaking English as a second language, yet the comedian himself can't speak a word of any other language.

I make these jokes, sometimes. Honestly, because Japanese doesn't have a solid 'R' like English does, and so when they try to say 'Hello' in english without training they say 'Herro'. They typically laugh about it as well, and I've seen plenty of japanese youths making fun of it. It's great fun sometimes, but you have to be careful who and when you speak it to.

Ophidicus
Wrote:Come on guys, this isn't about free speech, it's just a moan about people saying things you don't want to hear. We hear things we don't want to, that's the way interpersonal relationships are, & we shouldn't be criticising a basic human right for allowing people to say what they think. We are perfectly within our rights not to talk to someone about something, just as we are doing no wrong by telling them exactly how we feel, just as we are within our rights not to invite them to a party.

A moan about people saying what I don't want to hear? Hrm. Let's put it this way. Let's say your father just got killed, you're in your mid teens and he was a Soldier in some foreign country serving his Nation and doing what he Believed in. He paid with his life, and you're holding a respectful, quiet ceremony for him. Then 7 to 10 yahoos from a church nobody has ever heard of show up with offensive signs and picket the funeral procession, scream 'Baby Killer' and 'God Hates You' while your father is receiving the benediction while waving around flags that say even worse things in plain sight of the congregation.

Is this merely something you don't want to hear? (Implying that it might be necessary to hear it) Or is this something that's completely offensive, intrusive and completely disrespectful to your beliefs in family, love, and Country? It's situations like these, which I had feigned comment on specifically, that go across the line of Free Speech. Free Speech should also reflect general Respect for ideals talked about that others groups/Churches/Demographics hold. I don't speak out against Mormons, but I generally disagree with them. Same with the Polygamists out in Texas, or Marxists or Nazi's. I disagree with them, but I don't deliberately plan my time, energy, and finances to go and speak against them in a deliberately hurtful manner and interrupt whatever ceremony of respect and decency that has been carried on since the dawn of man.

These instances are where Free Speech is being used as a shield to cover up acts of malicious intent, and that's what this topic was about. I didn't want to get into detail because it's a personally painful subject for me, but here ya go.

I apologize if any of this came across as offensive or a little aggressive, it was not intended that way. (If indeed it was translated in that fashion) This lawsuit is currently traveling to the United States Supreme Court, because one man who was burying his son was subject to these men/women from Topeka who picketed the funeral. I'm quite interested in how it turns out, because it's a big factor on if I retire in the United States or not.

Anyways. Time to shower and get out the Aloe Vera. I never remember sunburns hurting this much.

Post: #7

My father, since you bring him into it, would be just as contemptuous of the benedictions he was recieving as he would of the indoctrinated fools waving their placards. He is a peaceful man, and an idealist (like his elder son, though he also has the virtues of being a hard-working and altruistic man, something I can't honestly claim. He's also strong, whereas I am just a skinny smartarsed pseudo-intellectual fop), doesn't believe in silly recieved dogma like 'nations' and would, impaired biochemistry notwithstanding, tell them exactly where to shove their anti-human discriminations.

"They come right up to the ceremony, at times less than 100 feet from the service, and wave some flags that I really don't feel like repeating."

God Hates Fags, right?

For my own part, I despise religion utterly, and consider anyone who would judge others in relation to a myth concocted by man's projection of his own ego onto what he does not understand about the world around him (& I do use the gender-loaded term consciously) to be the lowest form of ignorant bigot, and will say so to anyone who asks (and given a little preparation time I would be happy to illustrate the view with examples). I am free to hold this view, but in some parts of this world to hold the views I hold would make me a criminal. To punch someone in the face would be a criminal act, to burn someone's house down would be a criminal act, and to do it based on religious or political beliefs would be just the same sort of ignorant bigotry. These acts are harmful and destructive, and so are rightly considered crimes. Speaking is not a crime. This is why I defend free speech, because no thought or belief is criminal. No speech or written word can possibly harm another human being, only acting upon what one understands by those words.


"Free Speech should also reflect general Respect for ideals talked about that others groups/Churches/Demographics hold."

I do not agree. Whatever is said or written or followed or believed is open to question. Respect is a matter of manners, not freedom of speech. Speech should be free, entirely and without constraint. Manners is a much more difficult area, and I would never advocate limiting freedom of speech as a way to prohibit bad manners. Picketing funerals is just rude, when it comes down to it, it's being somewhere people don't want them to be, shouting things people don't want them to say. The difficulty is that it works both ways, virtually all progressive political acts have come about through people saying what people in power don't want saying and being where they don't want them to be. If you limit the bad, you limit the good.

[On an entirely pedantic note, I also disagree with treating 'free speech', 'respect', 'churches', 'demographics' as proper nouns, as I feel it gives undue gravitas to abstracts. But that's neither hither nor thither so feel free to ignore this sentence, just as you are free to ignore all the others. You don't have to, but I believe you are free to.]

I will concede that it isn't just moaning, though it did seem that way to me before. There is a distinct imbalance between an argument about social networking sites and "yahoos" disrupting funerals. I would also say therefore that there's a lot more weight to your arguments than their is to MV's. Freedom of speech and 'not liking rude people' are entirely different things, and I support the former as a matter of human rights in a peaceful and civilised society, and the latter through pure personal bias, just like everybody else who has posted in this topic.

In summary, "F**K OFF!" is just as valid an expression as "GOD HATES YOUR KIND!" I defend the right to say both, but I'll only say the one.

It is 4.45 am, time for bed I think. As you can see, I get pretty het up by the issue myself.

Post: #8

Very good reply, Ophidicus. You managed to keep your cool remarkably well, even though you self admittedly get 'Heated up' by such conversations.

Now, my riposte.

Ophidicus Wrote:My father, since you bring him into it, would be just as contemptuous of the benedictions he was recieving as he would of the indoctrinated fools waving their placards. He is a peaceful man, and an idealist (like his elder son, though he also has the virtues of being a hard-working and altruistic man, something I can't honestly claim. He's also strong, whereas I am just a skinny smartarsed pseudo-intellectual fop), doesn't believe in silly recieved dogma like 'nations' and would, impaired biochemistry notwithstanding, tell them exactly where to shove their anti-human discriminations.

That's your specific situation and mindset. Your father is different than mine, and different than others, and it's easy to call any human being on this planet unique. I spoke on the assumption that you'd treat the intrusion of such picketers with a similar reaction I would anyone treating someone I loved and cared about with such disrespect. We're different people, and thus react different ways, so I retract my assumption.

Ophidicus Wrote:No speech or written word can possibly harm another human being, only acting upon what one understands by those words.

True, after a sense. No speech or word can directly harm a person by their utterance, but the feelings and behaviors attached to those words cause real damage. A man gets fired for 'Whispers' of sexual misconduct at work. That directly harms his life, and it's just words. There may not be truth behind them.

A man is beaten on the street for 'Words' that he spoke about a political topic at a rally earlier that day. It was his opinion, and sure the words themselves didn't do damage, but what he said inflamed others enough to damage him physically.

A historian writes the 'Facts' as he sees them, given data and research about a Royal Family. The Family is then impugned with some massacre or disaster in that countries history, and is defamed and their reputation is damaged in the world theater as the Historian is respected and well publicized. This harms both parties potentially, but then again it's just the written word so it can't harm anyone.

Though your statement is fundamentally true, nothing in this world is ever held to fundamentals anymore. These picketers, for a continued example, come to the funeral and their words harm the reputation of a man who stood up for what he believed in, and fell for that same cause. It's just words though. They don't want to be heard, but the sort of mass blanketing of the signs we've both mentioned are prime examples of abuse of free speech. They're just words, but they're words entirely designed to cause hurt and cause discomfort instead of constructively furthering their ideals.


So, again, your statement is fundamentally true. Words themselves cause no damage, but in a world governed by the written word, words no longer carry their 'Only' written meaning. Words do have the ability to harm and indeed destroy lives simply because of the baggage humans put along with it, and the two are inseparable.

Thus, Free Speech is truly, or I should say 'Should Be' Free Speech within reason. Using 'Free Speech' as an unalienable human right (Which I disagree with) which doubles as a shield to hide behind when you spout malicious dogma is abuse. I'm not saying Free Speech should be limited to only Rainbows and Sugarplums, but Any sort of detrimental effect on another human being should not be protected. Debates are good and well, but direct accusations using inflammatory language and racial/Gender/Orientation slurs are simply abuse.

Post: #9

Quote:Words themselves cause no damage, but in a world governed by the written word, words no longer carry their 'Only' written meaning. Words do have the ability to harm and indeed destroy lives simply because of the baggage humans put along with it, and the two are inseparable.

You are right, & I believe, as I said in my first post, that the way to overcome this situation and its consequences is through listening and understanding. The problem being that many, many people (though by no means the majority, I am quite convinced), will yell and yell, drowning out measured and considered views with their own intolerant voices.

Your examples are of deeply unfair and troubling situations caused by people acting without thinking, without giving due consideration to the significance and accuracy of the accusations, they are acts of prejudice. Prejudice troubles me far more than any placard or slogan, and it a sad fact that people [referring now to the British public] seem more easily swayed by a sensationalist headline in the Sun than a considered article in a broadsheet, when far more good would come of considering both sides of an argument and reconciling one's own views. Clearly this is more difficult than shouting until you're blue in the face.

We are all unique, but not so different when you think about it

Post: #10

Quote:I make these jokes, sometimes. Honestly, because Japanese doesn't have a solid 'R' like English does, and so when they try to say 'Hello' in english without training they say 'Herro'. They typically laugh about it as well, and I've seen plenty of japanese youths making fun of it. It's great fun sometimes, but you have to be careful who and when you speak it to.

Its ok if its done as a joke by a friend, sure. Growing up half Japanese in the UK, it was virtually never done to me as a joke, hence I don't really see the funny side easily.

Quote:These picketers, for a continued example, come to the funeral and their words harm the reputation of a man who stood up for what he believed in, and fell for that same cause.

There is something altogether more distressing that they would do this to a grieving family and to the memory of a man who can no longer defend himself. I don't agree with a lot of the current military activity but soiling someone's funeral is not the way to express that. Disgusting behaviour.

Post: #11

(04-11-2010 05:02 AM)Onikaigo Wrote:  Thus, Free Speech is truly, or I should say 'Should Be' Free Speech within reason. Using 'Free Speech' as an unalienable human right (Which I disagree with) which doubles as a shield to hide behind when you spout malicious dogma is abuse. I'm not saying Free Speech should be limited to only Rainbows and Sugarplums, but Any sort of detrimental effect on another human being should not be protected. Debates are good and well, but direct accusations using inflammatory language and racial/Gender/Orientation slurs are simply abuse.

If this would be made into a law I would be very happy. I'm all for Freedom of Speech but it seems to get abused rather than used.

Some groups definitely need to grow a backbone because you can't say anything and it's immediately labeled as racism. This can go so far that you are hardly allowed to say anything because it could potentially offend somebody. That said some "commentators" should also become a little more sensitive; calling a religion "f**king stupid" is definitely a far cry from "I don't share your belief and I'd care not to be included in them".

Yes I know it's hard to stay nice sometimes, especially if the person who opposes you is a total bigot, but ask yourself this; is there any use in trying to talk with a person like that? I don't think so, just say you don't agree and walk away and let them scream at your back. When people use their freedom to do and say disgusting things though I'll be the first to speak up in a calm way and hopefully they'll continue to spout their nonsense and hatred so they'll look like the idiots to everyone else. Problem solved...well theoretically.

There is a healthy dividing line but it seems we are going from one extreme to the other almost everywhere on this planet; you can say anything you damn well please and everyone else be damned or you can't say anything at all.

Post: #12

I believe in the Freedom to Offend. This, however, does not mean I think we should run around throwing insults and such at each other without thought or consideration. Sometimes a simple opinion offends, just by being in your mind. Be it political, philosophical or religious.

I like to believe in a society where information flows freely will on its own change the zeitgeist, for better or for worse. That is up for us to decide.

Post: #13

As I have said elsewhere on CN, I personally believe that everyone should be able to express their views, providing the do so in a mature and civil manner, and it is the latter part that people seem to have a problem with in my opinion.

For example, if I was to speak on Christianity why do I need to express myself offensively such as (and please note this is an example, and should NOT be taken seriously):

“Fucking bible bashers. Their all a set of idiots who think their god looks after them. Yeah? Well some fucking god he is, not giving a shit about people suffering. Half of them are bloody retarded they don’t even know most of their holidays are ripped off pagans.”

It is ridiculous. I can express my points just as well without trying to be offensive:

Personally I don’t believe in the Christian Faith, especially when it comes to their views on God. It is difficult for me to imagine a father figure who takes an active interest in his children, and then watch him suffer as so many do. I would be inclined to believe if there is a god, he is simply just a being far superior to us, perhaps in the same way we could look down on a colony of ants.
Another thing that is interesting (and most Christians I have spoken to don’t realize), is that most of their holidays are actually timed to subvert the original pagan holidays that used to be celebrated at those times. In fact some things such as the Christmas Tree has still survived through.

See, I have got my point just as well across, so why be an arsehole about it? There is also a time and a place to do things. Oni’s example was disgusting, and I fully agree with his stance. I for example would not go into a church and start spouting such things about Christianity when someone is being christened.

To me, it is all about have respect for others, and thinking, how would you like to be treated in return?

Post: #14

DoN Wrote:To me, it is all about have respect for others, and thinking, how would you like to be treated in return?

The Golden rule hath been spoken!

I honestly agree with everything you've said, even to an extent the quote you said not to take seriously. Shows how well I listen to directions, and I's a Mod! It's gonna be a long trip between you and me DoN.

I think my stance has been pretty well stated here. One should have the ability to speak ones mind in a Mature and rational sense, but when two unchangeable forces (I.E Two idiots/Fanatics with opposite views) meet and their foreheads are repeatedly flattened...well...perhaps it's time for a bit of censorship.

I do -not- believe some humans should have the right to free speech. I believe that some humans forfeit their rights for a variety of reasons. Crime and malicious behavior being the biggest indicators that a person should simply live below the system and simply not talk. Again, my opinion. I believe a criminal, once convicted with due process should forfeit all rights that he is 'Unalienably' entitled to because he abused those rights.

Just like those picketers should get a big boot to the crotch.

Anyways. I have nothing more constructive to say about this topic, so if any more points come up I'll reply, but otherwise my points are pretty much stated as well as I could. Thanks for the debate, Ophidicus! It made me feel better to talk about that, oddly enough.

Post: #15

I disagree with a lot of what's said here.

It's very culturally biased. Being together with someone from a Chinese background has taught me a lot about language and interpretation.

For example, she always uses "hate". I "hate" that food. When I grew up, we never used that word. "Hate" was reserved for truly hateful subjects. So, she had an idea, used language to express it, and I interpreted it. It wasn't clearly communicated, and the reason for that, is I attach different meanings to the words that she does. Now, this is a very simple example and you can say she used hate incorrectly. But the point is, is I can say something is "big" and does my big mean what your big means? Is the blue colour I see the same blue as you see?

There is so many attachments to words and manners that it can be extremely difficult to communicate with someone in a meaningful way from a different background.

A simple sentence of communicating cannot, in my opinion, be automatically ruled out as rude. The things people are saying here to 'be respectful' are very culturally and environmentally dependant. The things MVs friends have said to him wouldn't bother me in the slightest, or neither the stupid comment. My friends and I joke around with far more rude things, each of us trying to shock the other.

Painting all weekend, my friend said to me "Mind if I paint your face?" and I responded "Why don't you paint my mom's face, then you and I would be even.".

Yes its rude, but to us, funny, and no ill is meant. We have great respect for each other, and our mother's, and it is just a joke to us. So, is it actually bad manners then? No. Communication involves two people, and the symbols to get them across to each other, verbal and written.

So, for someone to say "these are proper manners"... well, it's proper manners to you. Some cultures do not have words for "please or thank-you". It's just give me that. No ill will is meant, and when they speak English it comes across as very direct and bordering on rude... but that's because we attach our own meaning to it. One good example I have of this, is that my sister went to Korea to teach english. There, she went to a high scale restaurant. You know how when you go to a high scale sea food restaurant you can select your own lobster? It was the same thing, except substitute lobster for puppy dogs. Cute little puppy dogs. Pick yours out, they make it into stew. Now, my view is that meat is meat. I would have no problem eating there. But many people in Canada are offended by that. Those poor dogs! they wail. Is it illegal here? For sure. So different backgrounds, different views, on just about everything. Another good example: the miss was likened to a puppy dog. What my friend meant, is that she wanted to be with me everywhere I went. But to her, a dog is a grave insult. Whatever you say, be aware that the person on the other end may attach different meanings than you do. So what they say might be rude to you, but is not to them, or vice versa. Or could have a completely different meaning, or a small difference in meaning.

So, I disagree with a lot of what's in this post. Or at least, I look at it with a vastly different lens. A person can only be insulted if they allow themselves to be insulted. I have stressed different cultures but I want to stress that my point is, is that what someone says and how you interpret it are two different things. What are they Actually saying and what do they actually mean by it?

Oh and free speech is never free. You can't say whatever you want to whomever you want. There are always rules, spoken and unspoken. And it's for the best that way.

Post: #16

I haven't read the above posts so I may be repeating what others have already said.

Unfortunately, we either allow freedom of speech, or disallow it. I think that if we ban one aspect of freedom of speech (such as racism, homophobia, sexism etc), then we give permission to parties to ban other things that are less extreme. For example, in Britain there is a climate of fear of discussion of immigration for fear of being branded a racist. A week or so ago, a woman who had supported labour her whole life was branded a 'bigot' by Brown for saying we shouldn't have so much immigration, which is quite justifiable with 2.5 million on job seekers allowance.

Imagine if the woman said she wanted a halt to immigration, still justifiable until we need a larger labour force, she would have been branded a racist and it would end up proving that De Facto we are being forced into accepting one point of view which is a sign of loss of freedom of speech. Obviously some issues such as racism are unacceptable, but we need to draw a line such that people don't cross the line by being homophobic, and perhaps more importantly, such that people don't force others into bending to their will for fear of being branded homophobic. This, in my opinion, is why some mainstream voters are being pushed to the extreme right, because they feel like mainstream politicians are forcing people to accept their views as what is right (for example the constant references to being 'politically correct').

This, in my long winded way, is why I simply cannot justify voting for ANY political party in tomorrow's election, because we have a select few making decisions for us and now deciding what we should think as well, which to be frank sounds like fascism to me.

(Of course I could be completely wrong)

Post: #17

Some people may disagree with this but read fully before jumping down my throat.

I think people have the right to be homophobic, racist etc. If that is their view then that is their choice. Yes others will disagree with it, but they have a right to express their opinion. If a person really feels they don't like a person because of their race or sexuality, well as much as it may be against the "accepted" society, they have the right to feel like that.

It is how they express this view that is important. Going a attacking someone is stupid. However calmly and maturely expressing what they think, well it may upset others, but then the opposite opinions may upset people who are racist etc.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that everyone should be able to express their thoughts, providing they don't get nasty about it. You may disagree with their views, you may even think they are disgusting etc, but that still does not make them any less valid.

Also to be perfectly honest, the current ideas on what is acceptable just makes liars out of people. A lot of people pretend they don't mind homosexuality, other races etc when in fact they do. I don't know about anyone else but I would much prefer the truth, rather than having someone saying one thing to me, and another behind closed doors.

Finally I suppose I should clarify before anyone makes any assumptions on me, I am not homophobic, nor do I think I am racist (though I do have issues with immigrants taking houses / being on jobseekers. I don't mind so much when they work, but dislike England being classed as the place to go for handouts). On the other hand I do know others who would perhaps be considered racist etc, and whilst I don't agree with them, it is their choice.

Post: #18

I think most of it comes down to social prejudices.. i.e. what is considered socially acceptable by one community isn't necessarily accepted by another. An example of this is when my own grandmother refused to shake the hand of my of my friends because he's gay.. now she's an old-school Irish roman catholic so to her, homosexuality is an affront to her religion which in my opinion is perfectly acceptable because she's entitled to her thoughts and feelings just as much as my friend is entitled to be who he is..

She'll tolerate him because he's a friend of mine but she's insulted by his life choices.. so yeah I agree with you DoN that people are entitled to their own thoughts, in fact, I would actually rather live in a world where people are not afraid to speak their own minds rather than the society today where everything is about political-correctness and not offending people.. which is rubbish, people offend each other - deal with it.

It crosses the line when people start voicing their opinions in an aggressive or potentially inflammatory way.. it's ok in my opinion to be homophobic, especially given that it's a part of some peoples religion, but when you start aggressively campaigning with placards that say "Death to the Gays" or "Aids is Gods verdict" then I think you have become something less than a person and I pity those people because of their inability to see the person rather than the life-choices that they make.

Racism is prevalent in society, more so now because suddenly it's become this huge taboo because of political-correctness. It's particularly noticeable amongst the older generations in the way that they speak of ethnic minorities.. what was considered acceptable then would probably get you shot now.. my grandmother for example is always using phrases to describe ethnic minorities that aren't socially acceptable anymore but there isn't any malicious intent in their use.. it's just the way she was brought up and she still has the same views of the world that she did 50years ago.

But then, racism doesn't necessarily apply to black or asian groups.. there was a time in the UK when Bed 'n' Breakfasts used to have signs up that said "No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish" and having two Irish grandparents who have lived in this country for 50years I know quite a lot about the abuse that they suffered when they first came here because they were Irish.. but that was socially acceptable then.. and frankly, it's still socially acceptable now because when most people think about racism they equate it to black and asian groups.

There was a joke that welsh comedian Rob Brydon made, "Racism is institutionally accepted when it's directed at the welsh." And it's true, in this country we love to poke fun at the welsh, and the scots, and the Irish, and mostly the french (but lets face it.. the french deserve it ) but as soon as you poke fun as a black person you are deemed a racist, whether the joke was about his race or not.

And as the Grandson of Irish immigrants that really bugs me.

(05-06-2010 06:06 PM)Disciple of Nagash Wrote:  though I do have issues with immigrants taking houses / being on jobseekers. I don't mind so much when they work, but dislike England being classed as the place to go for handouts

This is one of the other things that bugs me.. and I don't want to start a flame war with you DoN so I will disagree with you in the most respectful manner I can.

I think that public perception of this issue is vastly inflated by the media.. the media in this country would have us believe that every foreigner in the world currently resides in the UK claiming benefits and I think it's sad that society has allowed the fear of this issue to cover up the actually small scale issue in reality.

I'm not saying that people don't try to swindle the system, and whilst the benefit system continues to make it more financially viable to stay on benefits than find work then this will never change but I think that there are far more nationals flogging the system for everything they can get than there are immigrants.

Post: #19

Obviously there are more British people abusing it than immigrants, because there are more British people, but I understand where you are coming from because as a percentage there are probably fairly similar percentages of Brits and non-Brits abusing benefits.
What I dislike though, is when people then use this as evidence to claim that Brits refuse to work for low wages, if that's the case, how the hell did we survive before immigrants turned up, and why do others then claim immigrants bring useful skills to the country and the NHS would collapse without them. Yes immigrants provide advantages, but the way the political elite claim they're the driving force keeping us afloat is barmy.

Rant about the political elite (not immigrants) over, I like the way that on CN we can discuss issues like this without people throwing insults at each other like seen in other forums.

Post: #20

(05-06-2010 07:43 PM)knightofni Wrote:  This is one of the other things that bugs me.. and I don't want to start a flame war with you DoN so I will disagree with you in the most respectful manner I can.

I think that public perception of this issue is vastly inflated by the media.. the media in this country would have us believe that every foreigner in the world currently resides in the UK claiming benefits and I think it's sad that society has allowed the fear of this issue to cover up the actually small scale issue in reality.

I'm not saying that people don't try to swindle the system, and whilst the benefit system continues to make it more financially viable to stay on benefits than find work then this will never change but I think that there are far more nationals flogging the system for everything they can get than there are immigrants.

Oh I fully agree that the media do make things out a lot worse than they are, but that does not negate the fact that is does happen. Yes of course British people do it as well, but I still think England is too soft on immigration.

Actually thinking about it, the main thing I have a big problem with (as mentioned in other threads), is the UK's lack of backbone when it comes to saying "this is our country, if you want to visit you should respect our traditions."

Visiting other countries I would have to expect to respect their rules and cultures. May countries, especially some of the middle east countries are protective over their traditions etc. Something which I fully support. They have their own culture, they have the right to protect it and insist if you want to visit their country you have to abide by their rules.

But I find the UK on the other hand is too quick to try and be accommodating, and is so worried about offending people. Like some schools saying they shouldn't say Merry Christmas it case it offends those who don't celebrate it.

Basically I don't mind people from other countries coming to the UK if they work, we have the available room and jobs (which is an issue in itself), and they understand that if the move to the UK it has its own predominant religion, language and culture, which they should learn and respect.

If I was going to move to another country, it would be something I would do.