Post: #1

I heard this bit of information this morning, and it has really got me bloody angry!!

As most of you know the Word Cup is about to start, and personally I don’t follow football, though I may make an exception for this. Most of the country is getting excited, flags hanging on cars, out windows etc.

Now one of the main things that people like to do is to go down to a pub to watch the games on a big TV with other fans, for the atmosphere etc. I have done it myself in the past, and even without following football it was still fun.

However now many fans have been told that if they want to go the pubs, they are not allowed to wear their England shirts because they could offend the ethic minorities, and that really pissed me off. We are in bloody ENGLAND for gods sake! You come to country, you have to expect them to wear their colours and support their country! I wouldn’t dream for example of going to the USA, sitting in a pub (or whatever the equivalent is there), and then saying I don’t want any of the Americans to wear their countries colours.

I personally feel it is ridiculous and insulting to everyone who lives in England, and whilst I am not racist etc, I think those that come to live in this country and who moan against such things should start respecting our customs and way of life, in the same way that if we emigrated to their country they would expect us to do the same.

Post: #2

To be honest if putting the needs of your country and people first is racist then we need more racists in charge over here. We used to rule the world and now we're expected to accept all of these weird customs as gospel while ours are crunched underfoot. We've got ethnic minorities actually killing and eating swans now! In the old days that would get you a prison sentence and a damn good hiding. Now it gets you a light slap on the wrist if your foreign. Its time to stop trying to save the world and start defending our borders.

Post: #3

Evidence please. Hard evidence, not just some reactionary claptrap in the Sun. Nobody is offended by a [stupid] cross on a white background, exept perhaps the Welsh*.

National pride is stupid. Allegiances to a geometric shape on a rectangular background is daft. I'd be happy to see the back of it**.

*Facetiousness.

**Serious.

Post: #4

Quote: Evidence please. Hard evidence, not just some reactionary claptrap in the Sun. Nobody is offended by a [stupid] cross on a white background, exept perhaps the Welsh*.

If you mean written orders from an official body, quite hard to put my hands on it. I know however that some pubs in Crawley have been requested / considering do this.

Quote: National pride is stupid. Allegiances to a geometric shape on a rectangular background is daft. I'd be happy to see the back of it

Your opinion which of course you are entitled to. But I know many people who feel differently, it may just be a geometric shape but to many it is a symbol, and so should not just be ignored. I feel you are looking at action rather than the underlying issue that many of England’s customs and traditions are being subverted to appease minorities, which I personally feel is wrong.

If it was something that you actually liked doing, or felt strongly about, then I am sure you would not be happy to be told you may not be able to do it.

Post: #5

Quote:However now many fans have been told that if they want to go the pubs, they are not allowed to wear their England shirts because they could offend the ethic minorities, and that really pissed me off. We are in bloody ENGLAND for gods sake!

Its probably more likely to be because rowdy football fans who behave like apes, start fights and break things seem to love wearing it, and the owners don't want them. I honestly don't think any ethnic minority would be offended by an England shirt on the grounds that its English, its just easier to give a lame excuse like "Ethnics won't like it" than it is to say "No large groups of football idiots please".

Quote:then we need more racists in charge over here.

We most certainly do not.

Quote:We used to rule the world and now we're expected to accept all of these weird customs as gospel while ours are crunched underfoot.

By 'weird customs' you mean other cultures? And did you really just say 'We used to rule the world' with a straight face? Jesus.

Quote:Its time to stop trying to save the world and start defending our borders.

From what? Hordes of immigrants who do all the sh*t jobs that you wouldn't? Or the ones that do jobs that you can't do but we need? And when did we try to save the world?

Post: #6

Yeah Ophidicus, it may just be some colours and shapes to you, but for others its a powerful symbol of national identity. Its disgraceful that English people can't wear English insignia in England, if someone went to a pub wearing a Portugal shirt noone would complain, there might be some banter about it but that's it.

This to me symbolises even more than lack of respect for a flag or for the indigenous culture, its an attack on the British way of life, its fine to allow others to celebrate their own cultures in this country, but as soon as the British choose to celebrate their own culture they are criticized for it.

This may only be happening in a few places but its still a disgrace, if we British said we were offended by the Muslim Burkha we would be vilified for it, yet everyone else is allowed to be offended by everything we say or do. Its not right, I agree completely with you guys, I think our government needs to make it clear that this is Britain and they should focus on British interests first.

Edit:
Ah Johnny, thanks for using the typical arguments that provide this terrible state of self hatred our country perpetuates.

Firstly, pubs have put up with 'rowdy' football fans for years now, they were far more likely to get in fights back when there were football firms, so don't go blaming this on a minority of thuggish fans when the majority are good enough civilised people, just because you've been given the impression that football fans are rowdy and a pain in the derrierre doesn't mean they all are.

When DoN said we need more racists the context of it was that IF we are racist for protecting our own culture and identity THEN we need 'racists' if that's what people who focus on British interests first truly are.

I think what Simon was saying is that British culture used to be the culture ruling alot of countries, yes its wrong to enforce our culture on others, but that doesn't mean we should accept other customs just because we made wrong decisions in the past. Yes some customs would seem wierd to a British person, would you like it if your parents married you to someone you had never met for example, or would you like to be arrested for any alcohol consumption because slowly other cultures are enforcing their beliefs in Britain, and some people are genuinely concerned.

Defend our borders from illegal immigrants perhaps, how about bogus asylum seekers (since technically Britain shouldn't recieve any asylum seekers as they are meant to go to the nearest safe country). These immigrants who do ALL the rubbish jobs, where are they, I don't see any where I live, there are some here and they do what jobs they are qualified for. I mean people go on about how the NHS would be doomed without immigrants, then they say the same for every other job under the sun, there are 2.5 million unemployed looking for work, but there isn't any, about 8 in every 10 new jobs over the past few months have been given to immigrants. I'm certain these Brits would gladly have these low paid jobs, the reason they're given to immigrants is because when there were jobs available, Brits felt inclined to try for better paid jobs, wouldn't you, and the millions who choose to sponge off the state means that immigrants were needed to actually do these important jobs. Instead, the govt should have got these lazy spongers to actually work or lose all benefits.

Saving the world... last year Britain gave 9 Billion in foreign aid, this budget says its to rise to 13 Billion. Some of this is going to India, who have nukes and a space program, so we are spending on their poor while they splash cash on going to space. Some is going to MANY other countries with similar situations and some is going to places with corrupt leaders where a massive amount of the countries money goes straight to them while we spend on their poor people. We are fighting a non-sanctioned war in Afghanistan (an illegal war, like Iraq) to save the world from what exactly, the majority of terrorists seen in Britain are born and bred in Britain, they hate us because we launched an illegal war in Afghanistan and recently 2 found to be terrorists were allowed to stay in Britain because it woul;d infringe their human rights to deport them to Pakistan where they could end up killed. These and many more annoyances are why we do need to stop trying to save the world and look to ourselves instead, we have the highest defecit we have ever had and yet the cuts being made are going to foreign aid, we are surrendering yet more power to Brussels by spending on saving the failed Euro in Greece, we are never going to win in Afghanistan (even if we did 'win' they'd come back as soon as we left, they're fighting for their beliefs, we are fighting to enforce democracy on them, a democracy which was proven farcical when the election was fixed, and then the redo had only one person standing) and we have massive unemployment as well.

So can you see why some people in Britain may be just 'a little' discontent with these various 'minor' problems that our great leaders obviously have under control, open your eyes to the problems that some Brits have to endure, you might not have these problems, or maybe you don't want to admit they're problems, but don't you dare imply that the destruction of British culture is not a problem.

Post: #7

(06-03-2010 12:51 PM)Johnny B Wrote:  

Quote:However now many fans have been told that if they want to go the pubs, they are not allowed to wear their England shirts because they could offend the ethic minorities, and that really pissed me off. We are in bloody ENGLAND for gods sake!

Its probably more likely to be because rowdy football fans who behave like apes, start fights and break things seem to love wearing it, and the owners don't want them. I honestly don't think any ethnic minority would be offended by an England shirt on the grounds that its English, its just easier to give a lame excuse like "Ethnics won't like it" than it is to say "No large groups of football idiots please".

^That^. Large groups of morons will fight over whatever petty thing they can find to get their blood boiling. England has a long history of football hooliganism,

Quote:

Quote:then we need more racists in charge over here.

We most certainly do not.

Hear hear!

Quote:

Quote:We used to rule the world and now we're expected to accept all of these weird customs as gospel while ours are crunched underfoot.

By 'weird customs' you mean other cultures? And did you really just say 'We used to rule the world' with a straight face? Jesus.

That kind of right-wing thinking makes me ill, the british empire was a cruel and domineering force which committed innumerable humanitarian atrocities (Zanzibar anyone? Slavery anyone?), it is no history to be proud of.

Post: #8

I entirely agree that we do not need racists charge. By this I am assuming that racist means someone who judges and is prejudice against others because they have a different colour of skin, religion, culture.

However what I do have issues with, is when other cultures start subverting our own. Protecting your own countries culture and tradition (not just England, any country), is not racism in my eyes. I would expect any country to do so, and if I visited / lived in another country I would make sure I did my best to respect theirs.

In regards to immigration, I think firstly that yes it does need to be monitored / limited. But I have no issue with immigrants provided they do the following:

Work – they pay their own way and do not live off the benefits system.
Respect our culture and tradtions, and do not try to impose their own or insist we tone down ours. For example (and this is fact by the way), a nurse being forced to desk duty because she would not remove her cross she wore, her employers felt it may upset come patients. England is predominantly a Church of England / Christian country and those who follow the religion should not be forced to hide their faith purely because of the influx of minorities in the last 50-100 years.

Personally I have had friends of various races / religions, but they have been respectful of me / mine, as I was of theirs. I have issues when someone tries to take away who I am / what I have.

EDIT: In regards to the hooligans – that is entirely possible. But if that is the case they should state that reason for it, rather than blame it on minorities. I would also state that hooligans are not as numerous as made out in the news etc, and I have been to may pubs with no issue whatsoever.

Post: #9

Quote:I would also state that hooligans are not as numerous as made out in the news etc, and I have been to may pubs with no issue whatsoever.

During a previous World Cup, my friend was told to "F**k off home" by a large group of football fans, when she foolishly attempted to buy a drink while wearing her Asian face. I thought that was particularly brave of them, a sterling defence of British culture, made all the more meaningful by the fact she was born in Walthamstow and can only speak English.

Quote:However what I do have issues with, is when other cultures start subverting our own.

Any contact with other cultures will affect yours, thats just the way it is. If you attempt to resist that at any cost, you risk getting stuck in the past. Europe and America have had a profound effect on every other culture on the planet, its ridiculous to think its just going to be a one way exchange.

Post: #10

Lol, seriously, yes there are SOME hooligans, unfortunately your past experiences have prejudiced you against these hooligans to the point where you think it acceptable to allow the subversion of our culture, just because some people are stupid and ignorant, not all football fans are.

Just because we made mistakes in the past by domination of others does not mean we have to accept their cultures. Here's how I look at it, we made a mistake, and then we gave them independence back, but we gave them some things, which is part of the reason so many Indians are able to become doctors in England for example, and in return we accept parts of their culture into British society. The key thing is that it must be parts of their culture we like and want, not because we 'have to' accept it, but because we want to. Two wrongs do not make a right, so don't say we should sacrifice our own culture just because my great-great-grandfather and his friends took over their countries in the past, that is no excuse for the current subversion of British culture in the name of other cultures.

Post: #11

Quote:unfortunately your past experiences have prejudiced you against these hooligans to the point where you think it acceptable to allow the subversion of our culture

I hardly think football qualifies as culture, and if it does, then thats pretty depressing in itself. Is British culture so fragile that prohibiting the vulgar display of a flag at every opportunity is going to undermine it? I think not. I certainly hope not.

Quote:The key thing is that it must be parts of their culture we like and want, not because we 'have to' accept it, but because we want to. Two wrongs do not make a right, so don't say we should sacrifice our own culture just because my great-great-grandfather and his friends took over their countries in the past, that is no excuse for the current subversion of British culture in the name of other cultures.

I didn't say anything of the sort. Its not a war, you're not sacrificing anything or being taken over. But any case where two cultures meet will inevitably mean they rub off on each other. Its nothing new and has happened in England more than most countries.

Post: #12

An unfortunate example, one which I entirely agree is out of order. Before you all get wrong ideas I am not……how to put it…..fully white myself. My ancestry has gifted me with olive skin which at the slightest hint of the sun makes me look Portuguese or Italian. So I have had comments myself.

However whilst those idiots were out of order, the majority of supporters are not. It is unfair to tar them all with the same brush, the same way for example you should not assume all Muslims are extremists who carry bombs. But that is getting onto a different subject now, suffice to say if that is the real reason, that should have been stated instead of a stupid excuse which causes inflammation against minorities.

Quote: Any contact with other cultures will affect yours, thats just the way it is. If you attempt to resist that at any cost, you risk getting stuck in the past. Europe and America have had a profound effect on every other culture on the planet, its ridiculous to think its just going to be a one way exchange.

Very true. I do not disagree that other cultures have impacts on others, in a progressive fashion. However that is not what I have an issue with. For example someone bringing along a new type of food along and saying would you like to try this, whilst of course being able to eat our current food, is fine. It’s an offer, most probably readily accepted and hence the culture changes.
But on the other hand bringing along a type of food, looking at the traditional food of the country and saying that you don’t like it, to see it is insulting, demanding that it isn’t shown around you etc is out of order to me.

A bad example perhaps, but I think it explains where I am trying to come from. Basically there is a difference to be to being influenced by other cultures and adapting / changing / growing, compared to another culture coming along and insisting that your culture offends them and you shouldn’t do certain things around them.

If you move to any country you should learn about the customs beforehand, and whilst you may not follow them, you should respect them and not actively try to force the resident people to change just because you dislike them. If you do dislike them that much, then to be blunt you should not have moved to that country.

---

Quote:I hardly think football qualifies as culture, and if it does, then thats pretty depressing in itself. Is British culture so fragile that prohibiting the vulgar display of a flag at every opportunity is going to undermine it? I think not. I certainly hope not.

I have to say Johnny that when it comes to the UK football is a massive part of its culture. It has been more over a hundred years now, so yes when it comes to it, to many it is important. Maybe not to you, but to the many others it is.

Post: #13

Wow. Why is it a topic I really want to reply to is always posted when I get drunk? Let's see if I can get a coherent response. Reading only the opening post, and one or two more....


I'm running into much the same problem in Japan, really. I'm stationed on Okinawa, and the Okinawans are really, really bending over backwards for us. I've found some bars where it's considered rude to wear the Japanese Flag, or speak Hogan, the language of Okinawa which is vastly different than japanese. That's slowly turning around, but the blatant bowing to foreigners (Don't get me started on latin american immigrants!, just don't!) is really annoying to my eyes.

I'm planning on watching the World Cup if possible. I love a good game of Soccer/Football, I really do. I plan on wearing a U.S emblem somewhere on my person whether the U.S makes it or not (Likely not...) but I'm going to represent my country. I'm going to get in good natured arguing sessions with locals/other military, and I'm going to have what the world commonly thinks of as a good time.

I'm really getting tired of countries bowing to immigrants. You're not a citizen. You don't fall under our consititution or our Rights. You're a human being, so of course we'll treat you with respect, but you have to respect the country you're in. It's our/Their flag, allow them to wear it. It's a worldwide sports holiday, let everyone enjoy it and represent whom they choose to represent.

I'd seriously start advertising now for a British wide campaign for everyone to wear the Flag on their person somewhere. Be it a hat, or a shirt or even their boxers they show off when they're as tipsy as I am right now. Patriotism is a beautiful thing, so God (Whichever one you follow) bless Patriots of whatever flavor!

Post: #14

(06-03-2010 03:15 PM)Onikaigo Wrote:  I'm really getting tired of countries bowing to immigrants. You're not a citizen. You don't fall under our consititution or our Rights.

Are you confusing immigrant with illegal immigrant? An immigrant is generally someone who legally migrates to another country for permanent residence. In the US this means an immigrant has constitutional rights.

Personally, I like the fact that we allow and encourage immigrants to carry their cultural identities with them into the US. If we didn't, then I'd be surrounded by a bunch of Puritans. Instead, I grew up with St Patrick's Day parades (and the local pub), Portuguese festivals, authentic Italian cooking and a Mardi Gras celebration or two.

I decline to comment on the World Cup discussion as I'm not as familiar with the with the fans or history. I know what I've seen on TV and read in papers about "football hooligans" but mass media was created to sell ads, not tell you the truth. All I ask is that England takes it easy on the opposing team in the first match.

Post: #15

tbh im not a sports fan but i think thats a bunch of bull (don the word you looking for would be bar/sports bar) anyways in ia way thats like for me if you can speak spanish you get paied more i think its a bunch of bull shit because honestly some of the people that speak both spanish and english and do tech support have no clue what the fuck they are talking about anyways thats my rant i would be the ass hole that does it no matter what im told but i guess im a bit of an anarchist

Post: #16

Wow, I actually have to agree with most of the comments said on here. I don't follow sports (except Cricket and Bathurst), but def will be watching the World Cup (NZ made it) But, yeah it sucks that they can't (reportedly) wear their own colors in a public bar. Also, immigrants should definitely respect other cultures. My main pet peeve is when a non-english speaking person comes to a country where English is the main language, and they can barely speak a word of it. Same as speaking another language in public. Sure, you may not want someone to eavesdrop on your conversation, but its really rude. As for wearing Burkas etc, I think Italy or somewhere has actually banned them. Or planning to anyway. The full muslim head covering. Oni, patriotism is a good thing, provided it doesn't split the public, so to speak. That is, as long as its not over the top. Awkward to explain...Agree with DoN, football (and other sports, such as Rugby over here, and in Aus) is generally regarded as a cultural thing. Whilst not in the same category, I regard it the same as Art, Literature, etc. If you like it, go for it. And its the same anywhere, (talking about violent football fanatics), its the small percentage that ruin it for everyone else. That happens everywhere. Same with driving age, etc. One teen gets (aged 15, minimum NZ driving age), get drunk, has car crash, gets seriously hurt, most people I know say "Good, it'll teach the young 'un the lesson", media blows it out of proportion and then there's major public outcry for driving age to be raised. That can be used in basically any argument along these lines (football, driving, drinking, video games, etc etc). Its a shame really

Post: #17

Maybe the problem is the following:





Some people might think new crusades have begun...

No, it' ridiculous...but it's good to see, your gouvernment in GB beeing as spineless as our rulers in Germany....poor Europe!

Post: #18

(06-04-2010 01:17 PM)Tribun Wrote:  Some people might think new crusades have begun...

Crap...not that shit again

But seriously, I do not see the issue here at all. Not just England but the world has gone so politically correct that you cannot even fart and offend somebody (whilst it's perfectly okay to rag on whites everywhere but that's another rant).

It's like the issue with the Confederate flag; because idiot racists use the flag it immediately brings to mind slavery and whatnot whilst it's got nothing to do with racism at all. Same with the German flag and the last couple of years we had issues here with youngsters sporting small Dutch flags on their shoulders. It was pretty funny as there were lots of blacks, browns, yellow, purples and whatever sporting badges of their respective countries and that was okay.

National pride does not have to include racism and yes there are some major idiots out there, especially in the soccer world, but does the majority have to suffer for a few idiots?
If that's the case we'd better design an international uniform that will not offend anyone and all wear it. Or go and live in a cave somewhere...

I think stuff like this actually creates racism rather than culls it. Most confusing of all it's the people who's country it is that are being discriminated!
It's a crazy world.

Post: #19

I was looking through this thread for a while and started wondering what would be done if they caught you wearing the jersy ? Would any publican actually give a damn ? I don't know what its like in Britain but in Ireland there are many laws that are just plain stupid and no one follows them , no one tries to stop you . Its actually technically illegal to be blasphemous but everyone is and no one cares .If I were you DoN I'd wear the jersy just to see what they'd do .

Post: #20

The world is far too politcally correct. Personall I think DoN should take over and give everybody a spanking.