Post: #1

Hi all,

Last game, i played against a dark elf army (2250pnt) and brought 3 units of 5 wolves and 2*2 bat swarms. *and summon creatures on all vampires (a bit too much)*

anyhow, i really loved how the batswarms preform, making your enemy unit strike last is almost just as good as you striking first. but this can only be done by magic so not that reliable.
What set-up i used was this.

put a big block of RnF in the front, with some bats on the side. Then, make sure you flank charge with something (like for example, squishy wolves) with slavering charge and without bat swarms, they get easily destroyed before they even can strike, but with the batswarms this changes a LOT.

and offcourse theres the step up rule... but its more for things that tend to be squishy but hit hard (for example cairnwraiths against a magic weapon character) you at leasst get the chance to kill him before he smashes your own unit.

All i want to say is,
dont underestimate the power of the cloud of horror!

Post: #2

I dont have any bat swarms, i might get some now the new rules ASL is a good one. Wraiths would most of the time still hit last because they have great weapons and low Initiative just like the rest of our stong infantry. I think it might work well against small units, if you kill a few you could have less attacts coming back

Post: #3

Do you find that when you throw 10 toughness 2 wounds into a block in this edition even though you may have made them strike last that they will just eat your bats for combat rez hitting them on 3's a lot of the times and wounding on 2's or 3's? Or is there some sort of trick to using them?

Post: #4

(01-27-2012 02:39 PM)Kuwanger23 Wrote:  Do you find that when you throw 10 toughness 2 wounds into a block in this edition even though you may have made them strike last that they will just eat your bats for combat rez hitting them on 3's a lot of the times and wounding on 2's or 3's? Or is there some sort of trick to using them?

Yeah good point, i would like to know what other tactics people use with them. Should i buy some or not?

Post: #5

If you flank someone who's not in an epic bus formation, they'll be getting around 4 or 5 models making attacks against you. Even with Toughness 2, it'll be tough for them to damage your bats at all unless they're something incredibly nasty like Chaos Warriors or Swordmasters. And even then, there's the chance that you knock off a rank with your initial attacks, meaning a little bit less pain coming in your bats' general direction. IMO, this is what makes them worth it. Frontally assaulting with bats is suicide, but flank charges can actually be pretty effective.

Post: #6

(01-27-2012 02:51 PM)Zombilly Wrote:  

(01-27-2012 02:39 PM)Kuwanger23 Wrote:  Do you find that when you throw 10 toughness 2 wounds into a block in this edition even though you may have made them strike last that they will just eat your bats for combat rez hitting them on 3's a lot of the times and wounding on 2's or 3's? Or is there some sort of trick to using them?

Yeah good point, i would like to know what other tactics people use with them. Should i buy some or not?

Like squishy unit, one had to pick and choose carefully. Mainly, I recommend hitting the flank w/the bats to minimize attacks back. (I did this w/a horde of ghouls and it was devastating!

Post: #7

Wouldn't it be smarter to charge bats in the front alongside another unit? Try to get it where the bats are corner to corner with the enemy, meaning only 2 models can strike them?


i.e.

X=enemy
K=friend
B=bats

XXXX
XXXX
KKKKBB
KKKK

Post: #8

(01-27-2012 04:47 PM)MadLarkin Wrote:  X=enemy
K=friend
B=bats

XXXX
XXXX
KKKKBB
KKKK

Sadly thats illegal, as you'd have to maximise. But luckily we can have different formations with skirmishers:

XXXX
XXXX
KKKKB
KKKKB

But i'm not sure how many attacks the supporting rank can make...

Post: #9

(01-27-2012 10:28 PM)fjhamming Wrote:  Sadly thats illegal, as you'd have to maximise. But luckily we can have different formations with skirmishers:

XXXX
XXXX
KKKKB
KKKKB

But i'm not sure how many attacks the supporting rank can make...

Are you asking about the supporting rank of the bats? Because it should be one, unless you're supposing that skirmishers might have some crazy rule against that. But I definitely assume it's one.

And attacks back, the other side could attack full with the front rank, and throw one support attack at the bats (Probably enough to keep them alive/from making negative CR)

Post: #10

There is a way to do this! Have your bats in a 1x1 fromation that would hit the unit along with your infantry block.
B=bats
E=enemys
T=friends

EEEEE
EEEEE
EEEEE
TTTTTB
TTTTTB

Thus 1 moddle front you are maximized for combat.

Post: #11

Actually, because the bat base is wider then your infantry bases, the first example is perfectly legal. You wouldn't be able to get the second bat into base without knocking one of your infantry out of base, so you had already engaged the maximum number of models.

Of course, if you're fighting an enemy that's wider then you, it doesn't work, and the 2x1 is superior in that case. In fact, it's generally superior, so it's not like it matters, do that anyway.

Post: #12

(01-27-2012 02:31 PM)Zombilly Wrote:  I dont have any bat swarms, i might get some now the new rules ASL is a good one. Wraiths would most of the time still hit last because they have great weapons and low Initiative just like the rest of our stong infantry. I think it might work well against small units, if you kill a few you could have less attacts coming back

just cu4rious mate, but i was wondering if you all know that if you are fighting a unit with ASL rule and you also have ASL, initiative doesnt come into it? you strike simultaniously

so those wraiths will hit the same time as any other enemy with ASL, doesnt go on initiative, initiative only comes into play on ASF

Post: #13

(01-28-2012 10:29 AM)geordieclubba Wrote:  

(01-27-2012 02:31 PM)Zombilly Wrote:  I dont have any bat swarms, i might get some now the new rules ASL is a good one. Wraiths would most of the time still hit last because they have great weapons and low Initiative just like the rest of our stong infantry. I think it might work well against small units, if you kill a few you could have less attacts coming back

just cu4rious mate, but i was wondering if you all know that if you are fighting a unit with ASL rule and you also have ASL, initiative doesnt come into it? you strike simultaniously

so those wraiths will hit the same time as any other enemy with ASL, doesnt go on initiative, initiative only comes into play on ASF

It doesn't come into play on ASF either :P If you both have ASF you strike simultaneously. That is why old vanhels was the bane of high elves. you struck at the same time and gained re-rolls to hit while they lost them

Post: #14

(01-28-2012 10:29 AM)geordieclubba Wrote:  just cu4rious mate, but i was wondering if you all know that if you are fighting a unit with ASL rule and you also have ASL, initiative doesnt come into it? you strike simultaniously

so those wraiths will hit the same time as any other enemy with ASL, doesnt go on initiative, initiative only comes into play on ASF

Yeah sorry your right i got mixed up

Post: #15

I'm planning to use batswarms against my friend's bloodletter horde. I'm using 40 GG in horde with hw&s and deploy them so that there's batswarm on their flank. I'm moving them on the same line so that my opponent is forced to do a combined charge on both of them if he wishes to charge. If I got the opprtunity to charge first I will combo charge with those two units + my Mortis engine on the other flank and the deal just got sweeter. He's frontage of 250mm vs 50mm on Mortis engine 200mm on GG + 40mm with bats maximised so that only 1 of his bloodletters is on corner to corner contact with my bats. Also my killy charecters are placed on that same corner in the GG unit so he's probably not striking my bats anyway. In the GG I have hero vamp tooled out to challenge his herald and take him out before he can lend his hatred to the unit, there's also my lord with sword of bloodshed, red fury and other tricster's shard. With that setup he's going to take some serious damage before he even get to attack. My hero is safe in a challenge and my lord is in the corner where only 6 attacks can be directed at him with 2 of those needing to reroll hit's (Beguile on hero and lord) and he will be hit on just 5+ (Glittering scales). Lord needs to survive max 2 rounds of combat before the letter's should crumble. That is some serious deathstar but pretty reliable I think.

Post: #16

Over rated

Yes they are a good helper unit for vargheists and varghulf. Not really much else cuz they should be getting destroyed at only 2T

Personally I run a unit, with 3 vargheists and 1 varghulf. (I love our ferosious beasties)

When instability comes into play if you can't win combats... Bat swarms become a liability (freely surrending wounds to enemy attackers)... Liability is something that is not acceptable performance from units that are in the special section. sprirt host Ethereals are a good option, but cloud of horror and the bat swarm + varheist + varghulf vampiric evolution theme is what I'm shooting for with VC. Though GG and BK are boss with barrows and I rep them from time to time.

Post: #17

I think they're a great unit. If used correctly that can help you win important combats.

So far I have charged a unit of chaos knights in the flank while my blood knights hit their front. The Blood Knights (along with a hero vamp) killed all but 1. That's one Knight attacking my expensive unit instead of 6. Even if he attacked the swarm he couldn't have taken more than a few wounds, which wouldn't have been enough to win the combat (or prevent him striking last in the next round).

I had a unit of skeletons holding up a Stegadon and I needed to kill the Steg so I charged it with my Crypt Horrors and a Bat Swarm. The Steg was dead before he could attack back (okay so I had already taken a couple of wounds off, but the point remains).

Admittedly they are the only two times they have been really useful so far, but they saved me a lot of points in damage both times. The trick to using them is to get them into fights that will benefit from the ASL immediately. Otherwise they will either be dead before the ASL will count and/or they will give the enemy free CR. It is unwise to throw them up against a unit which will still have full attacks when it is their turn. Charged in at the right time I think they can really contribute.

I think that charging them into the flank of a dangerous unit once that unit has lost its "spare" wounds can help you get a head start over them. Kill a few of their guys before they get to attack and you'll be saving your important unit a lot of strife. Meanwhile how many attacks on the swarm are you likely to get? 4? 8? 8 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2s will cause 4.5 wounds on average. 5 wounds (keeping in mind 8 attacks from a flank is quite a few). You might easily tip that balance through reduction in attacks back to your main unit alone and your bats are there and ready to give ASL in the next round too.

IMO they are a very nice utility unit. Spirit hosts can actually hold up a model indefinitely, but they don't help once the cavalry arrives. Bat Swarms are faster and they contribute to the fight, though they are more expensive (minimum unit cost) and die easily.

I love this book because there are very few "wrong" choices. Bat swarms are very very nice, you just need to treat them right.

Post: #18

SO the effective strategy for batswarms is concluded!

Combined charges with them are a must.
Knowing when to charge them in is essential. Most of the time this is when your enemy is in a small unit already engaged with one of your other units (so you can kill them before they get to attack)

Post: #19

And of course the alternative strategy is to take a warmachine or fast cav unit (because you outrange them with your mighty avarage charge distance of 18" )

Post: #20

If I had any I'd certainly be trying them out. In my opinion the biggest benefit of Bat Swarms is removing the re-rolls that often come with ASF from our opponents. That alone can drop their total kills by 1/4-1/3. The fact it means we get to make attacks first is just a nice bonus in many cases.

Factor in that with hover they don't babysitting and are manueverable and still make perfectly good blocker/diverters etc and they look very good for their points.