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Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
Default point values are 1,000; 2,000; and 2,500 (seems odd to me that it's not 0 to 1000, 1001 to 2000, etc, but w/e)

For 1,000 point games:
1-4 leaders
2+ battleline
0-2 artillery
0-2 behemoth

For 2,000 point games
1-6 leaders
3+ battleline
0-4 artillery
0-4 behemoth

for 2,500 point games
1-8 leaders
4+ battleline
0-5 artillery
0-5 behemoth

units without a battlefield role (no-type units in the above posts) are unrestricted regardless of points value. Units with more than one type count towards the mins and maxes for both. For instance, if you field Arkhan in a 2,000 point game, then you could field a maximum of 5 additional leaders and 3 additional behemoths. Honestly, though, the points costs of behemoths in particular is such that maximum army cost is going to be the main limit on those, rather than force org slots.

For undeath, the battleline units are:

skeleton warriors
zombies
crypt ghouls
tomb king skeleton warriors
tomb king skeleton horsemen (not the horse archers)
tomb king skeleton chariots

I've typically been running only one of the above units in most games, so my armies will need adjusting.

If you stick to a sub-theme you do open up some extra options:

spirit hosts are battleline if your army is all nighthaunt
blood knights if your army is all soulblight
black knights if your army is all deathrattle
morghasts (both types) if your army is all deathlords
skeleton archers if your army is all tomb kings AND khalida is your general
flayers if your army is all flesh eaters AND a flayer hero is your general
horrors if your army is all flesh eaters AND a horror hero is your general

Note that, from what I can tell (and don't quote me on this, I might have missed something), force org restrictions and army allegiance only care about your starting army, not anything you deploy via summoning. So, in a 2000 point game, you could field Arkhan plus three minimum units of morghasts, counting the morghasts as your battleline units since your army is all deathlords, and have about 900 points left over for summoning. The stuff you summoned, though, wouldn't have to be deathlords, nor would it have to worry about leader or behemoth limits - though again the available points pool means you probably wouldn't be topping those limits anyway.

Probably not worth skipping the necromancer, but it may be relevant for some subfactions. Even those without native spellcasters can access a single summoning spell per game (autocast and non-dispellable) via the artefacts, if you wanted to, say, bring a terrorgheist to your all-nighthaunt army or the like.
 
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Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
An important note if you use screaming skull catapults. Artillery crew in the new system do not have their own points costs, the rules explicitly call them out as coming free with the artillery piece itself. As such, the spell to replace the catapults warmachine crew can be used without have to set aside any points for it in your summoning pool.
 

Eyeless

Wight King
May 17, 2013
443
Malta
An important note if you use screaming skull catapults. Artillery crew in the new system do not have their own points costs, the rules explicitly call them out as coming free with the artillery piece itself. As such, the spell to replace the catapults warmachine crew can be used without have to set aside any points for it in your summoning pool.
Now that's something really good! always wondered if that spell would ever be useful!

And thanks a lot for this info =D we can get an idea of what it looks like now. Although there are some battleline units which i think are too overpowered in a sub-faction specific army, it's looking good and can't wait to try out a few games =]
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
If you're worried about subfactions with overpowered core, well, ok. This almost certainly isn't intended. But, rules as written, you're explicitly only allowed one allegiance. Ie, an all stormcast army has EITHER the Order allegiance OR the Stormcast allegiance, but not both. Subfaction Allegiances are required for unlocking extra core choices, but grand alliance allegiances are required for faction traits, commander traits, and artefacts.

Again, those things probably weren't intended to be mutually exclusive, BUT if battleline thundertusks or the like are running roughshod over the local scene, you can try selling people on the more restrictive reading of these rules to restore the balance - at least until an FAQ says otherwise - as those alliance bonuses are pretty significant.

As for undead generally, we have one of the easiest outs on core taxes of any of the alliances. Zombies are dirt cheap, and during the game they can mob up from 4 msu tax units of 10 to a single, almost respectable block unit of 40.
 
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Demian

Vampire Count
Oct 28, 2011
1,245
Do you think max unit size applies to zombies at all times during a game? or just when you build your list?

Since you can join any number of zombies into a strong single unit mid-game, regardless of size. This is another thing we should have clarification of.
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
As far as I can tell? Just when you build your list. I haven't seen everything though - haven't seen the actual wording on the summoning restriction, etc. As far as I can tell, though, your army can just be one leader plus all the rest of your points in msu zombie squads that voltron up into a crazy giant squad at the start of the game. Not necessarily the best plan, though. I mean, the zombie limit is already 60, and the bigger your zombie blob, the more opponents can get attacks in, and the more battleshock you'll suffer.
 

Aranei

Ghoul
Oct 22, 2014
184
St. Petersburg
A little bit on summoning

"Summoning.

set aside xxx points at the start.

Spend these on units you add during the game via summoning or similar.

Flesheater courts style reinforce units is free. But can't exceed starting side.

You don't need to declare your 'summoning pool' SCGT style."
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
Yeah yeah, I've heard those rules, but I haven't seen the actual text, none of that about summoning has been in any of the leaked pictures I've seen. Exact wording will matter for questions of whether, say, neferata's blood kiss or vlad's wight king spell counts. If it does, then those abilities will never be used.
 

Eyeless

Wight King
May 17, 2013
443
Malta
Yeah yeah, I've heard those rules, but I haven't seen the actual text, none of that about summoning has been in any of the leaked pictures I've seen. Exact wording will matter for questions of whether, say, neferata's blood kiss or vlad's wight king spell counts. If it does, then those abilities will never be used.

Was wondering about those 2 abilities actually.
 

El Syf

Vargheist
Dec 4, 2011
648
Eastbourne
Okay listened to it and it's quite a broad overview that retreads ground others have already in this thread.
This is a monumental turn around by GW though and I don't know how many of you heard but white dwarf is going monthly again from September with battle reports, background and painting articles etc. I may subscribe again ;)
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
Sylvaneth preorders should be this weekend, I don't know if that's a one week release or two. Sadly, general's compendium isn't supposed to be available until late july, a week or two after the global campaign has started, but participating stores are getting early copies to show their customers to try and help build interest, which is where all these leaks are coming from.

Sadly, I don't believe my local store is among them.
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
I was looking at the tomb kings compendium to see what extra deathrattle units are in there, when I realized that, according to RAW, archers are never core, even in a pure tomb kings army led by khalida, because that rule requires your army to have 'tomb kings allegiance', which isn't defined as all your units coming from the TK compendium, it's defined as all your units having the Tomb Kings keyword, and the only units that have that are actual tomb kings - settra, tomb king on foot, chariot, or sphinx. Skeleton archers in particular don't have the keyword, so including them automatically negates the conditions that would have made them a battle line unit.

RAI is obvious here, so it shouldn't be an issue, but just another example of the allegiance rules clearly not having been looked at quite hard enough.

Anyway, as for the list of deathrattle units from the TK book:

Tomb Herald (leader)
Skeleton Warriors (battleline)
Skeleton Archers
Skeleton Horsemen (battleline)
Skeleton Horse Archers
Skeleton Chariots (battleline)
Tomb Guard
Necropolis Knights
Warsphinx (behemoth)

Sadly, the Screaming Skull Catapult doesn't qualify. While the crew are deathrattle, the catapult itself isn't. Neither is the necrotect, which the SSC really needs to function. Of course, nothing's stopping you from fielding it anyway, it's not like Deathrattle allegiance actually gives you anything worthwhile, so I suppose its something to consider.

Necroknights and the Warsphinx are most notable options here, imo, adding some tough, heavy hitting power to the subfaction, as well as a native behemoth. The horsemen and chariots, while not the strongest units, may be relevant as battleline options. Archers are also solid, especially when buffed (don't forget that the wight kings' command abilities apply to them). Finally, the Tomb Herald is a solid support character, with options to deploy on foot or mounted. His ability to soak wounds for another character can be a godsend given the lack of 'look out sir' rules in AoS, and his banner ability, while not overwhelming, can be a useful bonus. Note that it returns a single slain model, not a single lost wound, so it can't heal heros, but can restore entire 5-wound models to chariot and necroknight units.

Unfortunately, still no spellcasters for dedicated deathrattle armies, outside of the Master of the Black Arts command trait, and I simply cannot endorse selecting that trait over Ruler of the Night (+1 to the Deathless Minions faction trait). Arkhan has the Skeleton racial keyword, though, even if he lacks the Deathrattle faction tag, so if you're just going for skeleton theme and not deathrattle allegiance, you could always take him, though the summoning restriction and rules of one significantly reign him in (to be fair, that is reflected in his discount points cost compared to the other mortarchs)

Anyway, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for some sort of clam pack skeletal lich as a native caster for Deathrattle armies once their inevitable battletome rolls out.
 

Demian

Vampire Count
Oct 28, 2011
1,245
As it seems, general DEATH Command traits will only apply for no other Allegiance bonuses, while also Artifacts and Faction Traits, since new allegiances (like Sylvaneth) include their own, and are not shared with the ORDER ones.

or... we will get to choose between them. More on it when the actual Handbook clarifies this!
 

Count michael

The Undead Sparky
May 17, 2010
813
Timaru
I don't suppose any has the points for chaosxD I am quite happy about the points as I may revive the old Warhammer fantasy player base in my area who refused to try AOS since it had no points
 

Demian

Vampire Count
Oct 28, 2011
1,245
They are not difficult to find on the internet, really, hehe

You should be able to find them easily!
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
It's not hard to find online. Most of the leaks originated on /tg/ from what I can tell, though you'd have to dig back a few threads to find it all. Google should turn it up elsewhere if you'd rather not pollute your eyeballs & cache folder.
 

Lord Elpus

Ghoul
Mar 19, 2012
176
Surely though Arkhan has skeleton keyword so he can be a dedicated spellcaster for Deathrattle armies....
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
What is a 'deathrattle army', though? 'Deathrattle Allegiance' requires everything to have the deathrattle keyword. Arkhan doesn't have that. Not that it matters, because choosing Deathrattle Allegiance means giving up Death Allegiance, in the process trading a very nice faction trait and some quality command traits for battleline black knights, and that's a terrible deal.

So no, Arkhan doesn't qualify for pure deathrattle armies, but that doesn't matter because even pure deathrattle armies would be better off just keeping to the regular death allegiance abilities, so it doesn't matter what non-deathrattle stuff you happen to feel like adding.
 

Count michael

The Undead Sparky
May 17, 2010
813
Timaru
Found it xD I like this points system a lot seems quite balanced, the tax on the formations seems quite a good idea with if you want the benefits you have to pay extra. So can you only increase the size of a unit by the min amount it can have so a unit of 10 Warriors can be only increased by 10 or as many as you like for example a squad of 15 etc
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
The 'only increase units by minimum size' is a major fly in the soup for me. I could understand it in a system with only a few dozen points in a game, there just wouldn't be the granularity needed to give models individual points, but this system is out of a few thousand, and there's just no excuse not to let models be purchased one at a time, once you consider minimum and maximum unit sizes are listed separately anyway.

I mean, what about Flesh Eaters players? There are no courtiers? There are no models for them, you're supposed to convert them out of one of the models in the box. But then, what do you do with the left overs? After you've built your infernal courtier, do you just throw out the other two flayers? Or pay full price for three, but only field two, spotting your opponent a painful points handicap when the entire point of the system was to provide at least a rough approximation of a fair game?

Or what if you play lizardmen and want to field saurus cavalry, when they're sold in boxes of 8, but can only be fielded in multiples of 5?

Or what if I just happen to like the look of 7 hexwraiths and 8 black knights better than five and ten? Or if I'm stuck with 50 points spare and literally nothing to spend it on? Why shouldn't I be able to buy up a few more infantry models for one of the units I'm already fielding to get closer to the set game value?

I've had people tell me it's to prevent annoying min-maxing, but I find list building much more fidgety when I'm swapping out entire units trying to find what fits rather than just adding or subtracting a couple models to or from one of the units I'm already taking.
 

Oppenheimer

Varghulf
May 26, 2013
743
A little bit on summoning

"Summoning.

set aside xxx points at the start.

Spend these on units you add during the game via summoning or similar.

Flesheater courts style reinforce units is free. But can't exceed starting side.

You don't need to declare your 'summoning pool' SCGT style."

I took a photo of the actual text from my GW store's book. I obviously can't post it here but it does clear up a few things.

1. Use some of your points to create a reinforcement pool of points when writing up your list
2. Each time a spell or ability allows you to add a unit to the battlefield you subtract its cost from this pool.
3. If you do not have enough points left in the pool decrease the size of the unit or it doesn't come in at all (but the spell or ability still counts as having been used)
4. If a spell or ability allows you to add models to existing units it doesn't subtract anything from the reinforcement pool. But, you cannot use this to increase any unit to more than it had at the start of the battle.

The key points here are that any spell *or ability* subtracts from your pool if it puts a new unit on the battlefield. This means that Neferata's ability to create a vampire lord would need points in the pool to work :-(
Also again confirms that flesh eaters don't need points set aside to add units to an existing unit but would need points set aside for the command abilities that add a whole new unit to the board.

Edit: Oh this also means that our banners are uneffected by this pool since they just restore models to an existing unit.
 
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Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
Yup, the blood kiss from nef or the throne, and vlads wight king spell, anything that has the ability to add a unit but doesn't reliably do so every game, is basically killed by this. It's annoying, and even regular summoning is really hard to justify trying to use, but imo a small price to pay for a playable game, which AoS wasn't with unrestricted summoning.

As for the restriction on raising units above starting strength, it does impact ghouls heavily, but it isn't necessarily faction killing, if it's taken account in the points. Arkhan was hit more heavily than Nef or Manny by the rules of one & summoning restrictions, but also costs 100 points less than they do, so there's hope. And the courtier recursion mechanics are still good, just not AS good, and they push you to field fewer larger units instead of more smaller ones, which imo isn't the end of the world.
 

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