1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Please welcome Irisado and Borgnine to the Moderation team! They have proved themselves invaluable for the past few years and now they may make their efforts to make this forum a great place direct!
  3. The General's handbook has been updated, what fun awaits the undying hordes?

Any 'true' KoW armies started yet?

Discussion in 'Kings of Warhammer (Mantic)' started by Blutsauger, Oct 11, 2015.

  1. Blutsauger

    Blutsauger Vampire Count True Blood

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,091
    Ever since the AoS rumours hit my enthusiasm for anything Fantasy related dropped right off. But now that I've discovered Kings of War it's picked right up again! While I've been adding to my Vampires army, I'm also starting up a Kingdoms of Men army as well. Rather than an adaptation of an existing WHFB army this will be my first army built exclusively for Kings of War. I think I'll stick to the 20mm basing convention so I can use it for WHFB 8th ed if anyone wants to play that.

    I'm looking at a War of the Roses era army using Perry Miniatures. The idea is that my Vampires prey on the outlying rural areas (whose forces will be represented by dark age era models) while the core of the army will be the professional soldiers stationed in the inner provinces of the kingdom. This should give me a nice counterpoint army for my Vampires, I think!

    Then I want some Elves and some Dwarves!

    What about anyone else? Has the Fantasy bug bitten again?
     
    Dragonet likes this.
  2. Rosebud

    Rosebud Zombie

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2013
    Messages:
    45
    I plan on slowly adding some VC themed converted units that would allow me to eventually have the option to run an empire of dust list in addition to undead, as many VC models I already have like skeleton warriors, grave guard, and balefire catapults can be easily represent things in both lists. This is mostly driven by available hobby time. Adding humans to the undead sounds quite flavorful. I always thought the Vlad fluff was the best: a vampire that wanted to rule humans.
     
  3. Dragonet

    Dragonet Wight King

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2015
    Messages:
    451
    When I have time to jump onto Kings Of War I'll grab the necessary characters to join in on the fluff, but I've seen nothing yet that makes me want to start a whole new army; to be fair though, it's taken me too long to get where I am with the Undead, and I've already promised myself that once my Empire and Elves are also finished I'm out of the business of looking for more fantasy projects; there's so many other games for me to get a handle on as well. It's a shame Mantic didn't fall into my crosshairs sooner, I may have been playing KoW for a few years by now instead of hanging on to 8th...
     
  4. hairyjeff

    hairyjeff Crypt Horror

    Joined:
    May 10, 2011
    Messages:
    585
    Apart from Undead, Dwarves, Elves, and O&G, which we already have in large amounts, I'm seriously looking at a Forces of Nature army. I've got several Lizardman models as a starting point, so the ideas process is fermenting nicely.
     
  5. Blutsauger

    Blutsauger Vampire Count True Blood

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,091
    I'm finding myself strangely attracted to the Mantic elves, actually. I know they're quite divisive, but I reckon they'll look really good with a few tweaks. Also, the price is fantastic!
     
  6. Grok

    Grok Ghoul

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2014
    Messages:
    124
    I just bought the Abyssal Dwarf starter army. Going to try to do Counter Charge's Army in a weekend. Will be doing multibasing and try to get the units really dynamic. I am pretty excited these minis look pretty great, and I have always wanted a dwarf army. Plus as others have mentioned the price is fantastic!

    I am kind of wishing I had bought the larger army box as the savings on these bulk deals is great!
     
  7. Blutsauger

    Blutsauger Vampire Count True Blood

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,091
    Yeah, I love their dwarves, both the Abyssal and the normal ones.
     
  8. Adam_Barrow

    Adam_Barrow Sleepless Knight True Blood

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2010
    Messages:
    3,068
    Not 100% on topic, but I bought 30 or so of their axe and shield Dwarves for my Chaos Dwarf project. Cool models, and the value is tops. If their warmachines were a little better I'd be buying those up from them too.
     
  9. Grok

    Grok Ghoul

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2014
    Messages:
    124
    Agreed. I think the refreshing thing about Mantic though is that the company is not asking you to just buy their models. So I have been taking advantage looking at Reaper and some other places.
     
    Blutsauger likes this.
  10. Yorga

    Yorga Vampire Count True Blood

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,851
    I've played two games of KoW. Right now the jury is still out on the mechanics but one thing that I am not thrilled about is the lack of 'Fantasy' in KoW. It just doesn't feel like there is a fantasy element. Magic is bland bland bland. You could easily envision the caster as just having some sort of super bow. As I described to friends, playing WFB was like test driving a Dodge Charger V8 and then playing KoW was like driving a Prius. :boring:
     
    Dragonet likes this.
  11. Blutsauger

    Blutsauger Vampire Count True Blood

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,091
    To each their own, I guess.

    I don't see how you can get much more fantasy than KoW. There's dragon riding heroes, ghosts, orcs, elves, dwarves, (dwarf berserkers riding enormous badgers!) undead, demons and monsters.

    As for magic, one of the things I hated about WHFB magic was how it was all different, but still all exactly the same. You had two dozen different ways to remove a handful of models with a magic missile, which was totally redundant because so often the result was simply just that: removing a handful of models. The mechanics under the hood often had little effect on the outcome.

    But it's different strokes for different folks, since to me the end result is the most important thing. If my Knights beat the Zombies, I don't care how the rules make that happen, so long as the result is something that makes sense to me. Whether I simply roll a number of attacks for my unit, then roll the hits again and compare them to my enemies defence score and apply the results accordingly, or whether I have to count how many models can fight, apply any bonuses from horde formations, add up all the attacks, roll to hit, then wound (cross referencing characteristics both times) then check for saves, then resolve the combat, it doesn't matter to me so long as the results come out similar enough. Other people seem to really enjoy the fact that their wizard kills models differently to another players wizard.

    But I have to say, I vastly prefer the more elegant approach KoW takes as opposed to the granular approach of WHFB. To stick with the car analogy, to me KoW feels like a Mercedes sedan while WHFB felt more like chitty-chitty-bang-bang: just choc full of useless bells and whistles, and frankly a bit silly.
     
  12. Dragonet

    Dragonet Wight King

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2015
    Messages:
    451
    I'm loving the analogy! To me it's like comparing a racing car with a classic car; you just don't use them for the same things. Could it be argued that they both do very different jobs, but each does their job very well?
     
    der vued likes this.
  13. Blutsauger

    Blutsauger Vampire Count True Blood

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,091
    I think if one were trying to be very diplomatic, they could make that argument :)

    But I also think both games are (or were, in the case of WHFB) trying to do exactly the same thing, which is provide massed fantasy battles on the tabletop. I stuck with WHFB for a long time because it was really the only show in town, but I never liked it all that much. The rules were far too clunky and focused on the minutia IMO. Kings of War is a breath of fresh air, a clean and elegant system that provides a much better gaming experience IMO. Not to say it doesn't have it's own faults, because it does. No system is perfect, not least because everyone wants different things from a system, but on the whole I much prefer KoW to Warhammer.
     
  14. Dragonet

    Dragonet Wight King

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2015
    Messages:
    451
    Regardless of intention, I believe that the two games cater to different audiences. KoW seems to tick all the boxes for competitive players, while leaving those more motivated by narrative and character a little cold.

    I could see myself enjoying Kings Of War, especially as I rarely have 3-5 hours to fight a battle, but I'll always love Warhammer more. For me the detail matters; AoE spell is not the same as either a portal to Hell opens beneath your feet; grasping hands drag the terrified halberdiers down into the abyss, or raw untamed power coalesces into what can only be described as a purple sun, burning everything it touches into obliteration!
     
  15. Grok

    Grok Ghoul

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2014
    Messages:
    124
    I'm not certain how KoW lacks a fantasy element, but I can certainly see how it lacks some of the flavor and sizzle from WFB. That being said with the lack comes as much smoother, more balanced system. I will take a bit less sizzle for that, I also love the a KoW game takes about 1/2 the time a WFB did. There is also the possibility for much cooler looking armies which each unit being a treat to paint and look at.
     
    Dragonet likes this.
  16. Yorga

    Yorga Vampire Count True Blood

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,851
    @Blutsauger

    Yes, you can play using all those fantastic models. I was trying out the new Vanagur list. There was absolutely no difference between my knights and my Opponent's 'good guy' knights. None. The infantry were all pretty much the same. I had a Warlord on something called a direbeast. Could have been a Hero on a Charger. My mage cast a lightning bolt. His mages healed wounds. I had a cave dweller. It was just something with more attacks and a better chance of wounding. I pointed out that we could have been using Spartans and Egyptians. In Warhammer your monster had all sorts of nice fantasy stuff. Flying...breath fire...berserk rage...extra armor or regeneration. Stomps and thunder stomps. Caused fear or terror. The Cave Dweller in KoW just didn't feel like a monster. It didn't feel 'fantastic'. That was my point. I can play Chess using Civil War pieces or Tolkien pieces but it is still just Chess. Frankly I expected something much better from Alessio. I know we weren't using all the rules because my friends (who were teaching me) had to keep looking up everything. But what we played felt like something a young teen could put together with a week or two of effort.

    The whole game revolves around tray size. Really doesn't matter what you stick in the actual tray. :rolleyes:
     
    Dragonet and Seneschal like this.
  17. Grok

    Grok Ghoul

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2014
    Messages:
    124
    I mean one could argue it didn't matter what you put on your movement tray in WFB with that same logic :).

    I think the problem is if you go into KoW expecting warhammer, yes it will feel like there is less there. You aren't playing warhammer though, things don't need all those special rules to feel different, that is sort of the point of the system. Minor changes make huge differences in the game. The whole point of the game is to remove the fancy stuff that bogs down the game and unbalances it.

    For example my skeletons similar stats to zombies, except they have defense 4 not 3 and could get spears, this is major! . Ghouls hit on 4s and can march. Monsters do have breath weapons, many also fly and have crushing strength 2 + 3, making them quite good at stomping elite stuff, but get bogged down by big units (sort of like warhammer ;) ). I have actually been impressed with how different units can feel and perform with minor tweaks to their stats or one extra rule.

    Knights are knights. Why should elite trained knights of men be vastly different from the elite trained knights of bad men?

    I think arguing a teen could make the rules is pretty harsh. There is a difference between an stream lined ruleset which emphasizes speed, less rules, and balance, and say something anyone could write. That comment honestly feels a little disrespectful, considering a large beta test, a rules designer, and a rules committee put a lot of work into the game to make it balanced, fun, and tactical. It might not be for you, that is fine, but that doesn't mean.

    It also seems really strange to make such a harsh judgement of a game, but weren't playing all of the rules. If you weren't playing all the rules, how can you voice an opinion on whether or not units are different. The rulebook is 20 pages, its pretty easy to read it and use all of it ;).

    If you want a ton of rules to make every unit feel unique why not go try Age of Sigmar, Malifaux, or Warmachine all those systems emphasize that design philosophy.
     
    Dragonet likes this.
  18. Yorga

    Yorga Vampire Count True Blood

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,851
    In my first post on this topic I did say "the jury is still out". I'm keeping an open mind . :cautious: Amazon is sending me my rule book as we speak. :)
     
    Dragonet and Blutsauger like this.
  19. Blutsauger

    Blutsauger Vampire Count True Blood

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,091
    I made a post ages ago (probably on another forum) when the old Chaos 40K codex dropped. It was stripped bare, the first codex the studio applied their 'minimalist' approach to (I think Dark Angels was the other one before they did before they abandoned that approach) and everyone was losing their minds.

    The point of that post, and the one I'm making now, is that theme and difference should come (IMO) primarily from the modelling and painting aspect of the game, not the rules. For instance, your hero on a direbeast COULD be a hero on a charger. Or on a palanquin. Or on a flying carpet, or a monster boar or anything else your heart desires because the rules simply function as a way to represent what you want your model to be. I'm using my Mortis Engine model as a Revenant King on Flying Undead Wyrm, because the things achieved by the rules (fast movement that ignores terrain, inspiring and provides magical support to nearby undead, is pretty good in combat as well) fit the things the model can achieve on the table top.

    The rules in Warhammer represented every tiny nuance of difference between the models. And frankly, it caused the game to get really bogged down in minutia. I remember many instances of counting individual rows of skeleton spearmen to see which enemy model each row could attack. What a bore! It's insignificant detail that has no meaningful impact on the result of the game.

    The magic rules are the perfect example, IMO.

    In Kings of War, you roll some dice, and take off some models. There are even two different ways to do this (Fireball and Lightning bolt). But the name of the rule is simply an abstraction. It used to just be called Zap! It could be opening a crack in the earth and swallowing the enemies in it, destroying them with bolts of lightning, having angels fly down from the heaves and drag them away, aging them a hundred years in a few seconds, or any other way of killing enemies with magic that you can think of. The point is that none of those are so significantly different from the others that they need different rules. The end result is the same, regardless of the 'fluff' happening in our minds, so the mechanics can be the same as well.

    And to be entirely fair, your mounted Chaos Knights should have had more attacks and better nerve than the Kingdoms of Men knights.

    Monsters in KoW still have stuff. Werewolves have Regeneration, Dragons have Fly and Breath Attacks, stomp and thunderstomp is replaced by Crushing Strength (a much better rule, IMO since it isn't so random), etc.

    I just had a thought: Were you playing with the free download rules? A lot of the monsters, all of the magic items and the game scenarios were left out of the free download rules as an incentive to get people to buy the rulebook. I expect the download rules to be updated to the full version soon, but if that's all you're running off then I can see how you're missing some 'sizzle' as it's not in the rules that you're using!

    I know, it's great isn't it? :) Free reign for counts-as, no need for unit fillers, you can do multi-basing if you want (I'm keeping my models on their individual bases in case I want to play some legacy WHFB), and use any model from any range that fits the rules!
     
    Dragonet likes this.
  20. Dragonet

    Dragonet Wight King

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2015
    Messages:
    451
    I'm glad we've got both systems. KoW draws on a long tradition of simple, effective rules that allow moderate representation of troop types and unique units along with fast flowing game play. However, it isn't Warhammer.

    From what I've seen, WHFB is the only game system that has successfully represented such diverse and highly unique troops and magic, while catering for the lighthearted and the grimdark, and despite its massive scope also accommodating sufficient balance for competitive play. It's a thing of beauty.

    like I said, they both have merits and flaws, and are not at all mutually exclusive.
     
    Blutsauger likes this.
  21. Grok

    Grok Ghoul

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2014
    Messages:
    124
    Dragonet, I can second that :). Of course WFB is dead :/, so unless you can get a legacy group going ...
     
  22. Yorga

    Yorga Vampire Count True Blood

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,851
    Yes. I do have to admit that the 'freedom' aspect of KoW is refreshing. Yes, I was using a down loaded list and not even one I built. My friend didn't use any of the unit optional stuff. That might make a big difference. I'm playing again on the 21st. We'll see. I will make my own list for that.
    As Dragonet stated, Warhammer ended (talking 8th edition not EoT here) on a note of almost perfect harmony. I felt so challenged each time I played trying to balance all the nuisances generated by the rules into a winning strategy. An example being how drastically the game changed between the times GW said no overrun from crumbling to allowing an overrun on crumbling. That had a huge impact on army construction and positioning. Things like quick reform and magic spells that spirited units across the table created a myriad of options. Warhammer was so deliciously complex. Easy to learn and near impossible to master. *Lays a wilted rose on an new grave.* :grave:
     
    Dragonet likes this.
  23. Dragonet

    Dragonet Wight King

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2015
    Messages:
    451
    I still play Warhammer with my group, and I finally have a complete set of all the army books for the current edition! Guys, it's only as dead as you want it to be.
     
  24. Yorga

    Yorga Vampire Count True Blood

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,851
    Sadly my friends (group) took the silly position of "The game is not supported anymore...we quit." :o
     
  25. Blutsauger

    Blutsauger Vampire Count True Blood

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,091
    Yeah, try and build your list with battlescribe or something if you don't have a rulebook, so you get access to some of the other units, magic items, etc :)
     

Share This Page