Are humans animals?

So, it's what it says on the tin really, in this thread I want to explore whether humans are animals or not?

I implore everyone here to put forward a Logical argument, something that makes sense and is not self contradictory, for the sake of our sanity. Also, please please please keep your tone calm and non-agressive, it makes for a better argument plus we are not trying to offend anyone.

To start it off I'll post my ideas: I believe humans are not animals. Firstly I am a Christian, which may be something unpopular to say, but my decisions and arguments are rooted in science.
I think that all animals are explained by their environment. This is the theory of evolution, basically saying that animals are adapted to their environment due to what that environment contains to be more and more efficient. Now, every animal has adapted, but no more than is necessary.

This is really important, animals are not over-adapted. For example I'm sure hawks would be better hunters if they were faster or larger but they are only as fast as they need to be to catch their prey. I'm sure a tarantula would be an even better predator if it was larger or of it's venom was even more poisonous but it is only as large and poisonous as it needs to be to catch its prey NO MORE AND NO LESS. This is true for every animal.

However, humans are much, much over adapted, we are simply too good at gathering food. Apes didn't need to evolve into humans to be successful, they already are. No, humans are not explained by their surroundings.

We have no reason, no reason at all to have such powerful brains. We are too powerful for our own good and our environment does not completely control us, (it controls us incompletely). Instead, we control it and can change it to our will. This no other animal does at a large scale. If we wanted to we could change the climate of the Earth to colder/warmer, this no animal can do.

So we are not explained by our surroundings, we are not contained by them like animals are.
Therefore I believe humans are not animals.


Sorry for the ton of text but every part of it is essential....what do you think?

 

Well, that is simply my favourite one but there are others. For example, animals do not create art. Sure birds sing prettily and some animals even wear "jewellery" but that is only when they want to mate and are trying to lure a female from their kind. Humans however create art because of how we feel, sad, happy, or just to make something pretty.
This morning I didn't finish painting my Hexwraiths because I wanted that girl over the street to get in bed with me. I did it because I felt like making something which looks nice, something I can be proud of. It is an amazing feeling, I feel amazing when I complete some minis or even when I do some really hard maths (yes I am weird like that ).

So we are not like animals because we do pointless things (like art, music) which have no practical application but they make us feel better. Therefore humans are not animals.

My second favourite argument it is unfortunately less scientific than the first one but I would say it is still valid.

Darvy - you seem to have explained my argument better and in less words than I have myself

 

Well of course as a Christian you would believe that humans are superior, after all, we're the children of god born to inherit the earth right?

Humans are animals because they display traits common in most if not all other animals - the desire to live and survive, the need to eat, to sleep, to mate and reproduce etc. etc. We are actually classed as mammals because we have warm blood and give birth to live young.

The only difference between humans and other species is their level of intelligence, and that is only there because it is our adaptation. Where other animals have evolved to have thick fur, blubber, physical strength, agility, excellent eyesight etc. humans have evolved to have larger brains.

It's easy to look at yourself as different and special when compared to other animals especially when you have been indoctrinated to believe that from an early age by your parents and other guiding figures but in truth we are the same as cats, dogs, cows, lions, alligators etc. etc.

All that we do stems from basic instincts. It's just that our intelligence has amplified those instincts and they have developed into different things such as love, which is a development of the bond other animals share especially between mates, though admittedly not all animals mate for long periods of time like humans do, but many of them do.

As for art... yes maybe humans are the only ones who produce art, but so what? How is that proof that we are not animals? It simply isn't a valid argument. It's clear that you have a strong desire to believe yourself superior to other animals, that you are exceptional, but sadly for you it isn't true.

 

This is a very good/funny article on the subject, one might not agree with it but I found it entertaining non the less

http://chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/humans-are-animals-8-year-old-vs-misinformed-teacher/32709

The main problem being the word animal is a human creation, we made it up to explain a certain collection of living organisms. you could argue that the fact we create art just for our own pleasure makes us something more than other animals, dolphines have sex for fun/pleasure. Tiger mothers who lose their cubs can get depressed and lose the will to live (they "cured" it by tricking it with pigletts wrapped in tigerprint).

Our genome is 98% the same as mice.

Pr the definition of the word (look at count D's link) we are animals, but as I said we created that definition by a set of rules in which we fit under. but we have made a subcategory called mammels with a further set of rules, further yet we use the term humans.

All in all are we different from other animals certainly but we are animals non the less.

Let me ask you further are humans mammals?

On a more philosophical plane I can totally see your arguements and the discussion is worth having imo. Look forward to seeing more points of views!

 

Darvy - would you not say however that animals mate because it is their instinct to? Because they have been programmed to increase the population of their species as a whole? While humans, when we mate we do no think about increasing the population of humanity at all. Most of us mate because we love the other and want offspring. Most often it is an act of love. I don't think sex is selfish, sure you enjoy it but if you are a couple you do it out of love, wanting to be close to each other, wanting to make the other happy.

That is another thing, humans have some beautiful emotions, we want to make others feel happier even if it would hurt us. We want to sacrifice ourselves for the people we love. Animals mate because it is their instinct, we mate because we love (usually).

So no, I would say animals do not make any form of art, mating isn't really art, it is an instinct. Not every human does art so it is not our instinct. So we are different to animals.

Dreamer - I did ask at the top to keep it civil. Your argument in no way disqualifies mine, plus you seem to enjoy making fun of my beliefs. Until you make a non-agressive/offensive point I am not going to acknowledge it, I don't have to. Count Darvaleth makes good points without any sort of agression so I can have a proper, intelligent debate with him.

Edit: Bull - sorry, didn't notice your comment. I believe humans have a soul, so DNA might be almost identical and we can still be different. In terms of body we are animals, but that is almost like saying that everything is just atoms (which it is). What I'm saying is that our bodies fit under the animal category, however, our minds fall outside it and our souls make us completely different. Dolphins might enjoy having sex but I'm sure they also do it to increase their population and make the species better. I am not arguing that animals do not have feelings, because they seem capable of exhibiting them.

Instead, I'm saying that humans do completely pointless things, losing a cub for a tiger might be depressing but that is completely logical, jumping for joy like a fangirl because "that guy" look at you across the classroom is completely illogical and it is what makes us human and not animal.

Also, animals cannot restrain themselves, they do everything either out of instinct or because their human owners (this is mostly for dogs) teach them they will get a prize if they do/don't do something. Whereas humans often don't do things just to train their will.

 

Hey Darvy! Love you! So the only animals that have sex for pleasure are humans and dolphins. Every other animal on earth mate only because of natural instinct. It is what they are suppose to do thus they do it, not because it feels good.

The discussion itself is just from one view to the other. I mean in a cullular structure and molecular level, yes humans are just another mammal. I mean mammals all are warm blooded, need oxygen which comes from the air, have a bone structure. So in that way, yes humans are the exact same as other mammals out there.

On a personal level, each animal has it's own personality, they have feelings, things they like and things they don't. I mean one dog may love a specific type of bone while another may hate it. Just like humans, we all have different personalities and different tastes, different likes and dislikes. I mean, I don't really see a difference there.

On a religious stand point. Aren, I to am a God fearing man, but that doesn't lead me to think that we are better than the other creatures. Yes the Bible says that Man is the ruler of the world, but it also says to respect all of His creations.

Yeah, we are superior to other animals in 1 way, and that is that we are simply smarter. Birds can fly, humans can't. Fish can breathe under water, humans can't. Ants can lift 50 times their own body weight, I don't remember ever seeing a 250lb man that could lift 12,500 pounds. The difference is that humans have the ability to develope things that make us better at things than any animal on earth. Birds can fly? We make airplanes. Fish can swim? We make submarines. Ants lift 50 times their body weight? We make fork lifts, cranes etc. Cheetahs can run at like 60 miles an hour? We have cars that can travel at 215. I mean our mind makes us able to do everything an animal can do only better.

My personal feelings about this is pretty straight forward. I eat meat, and I sure aint ashamed of it, but on the other side, I hate animal cruelty. I know, that seems completely contradictory but I don't support of how some animals are killed for food, and it's as simple as that. I have a pet Beagle, he gets treated better than me and my wife in our own house lol. He sleeps on the bed with us, he gets a whole bunch of attention. We love that little guy and he is part of our family. Now I don't know what opinions are on pets, but I see nothing wrong with that either. I may be ignorant but I don't want to do research on animal cruelty! It's something that I know I don't like, but it's also something that I know that I have 0 power to change. I can stop eating meat and drinking milk but that is just a drop in the bucket for these huge companies. I mean KFC can get a $1,000,000 fine for how they treat their stock and they don't change. Why? Because it's cheaper for them to continue their procedures as they are now and pay the fine then to change the way they do business.

Well good luck to anyone who feels like reading that block of words! lol

Edit: Dude, I got ninja'd twice by the time I wrote this lol

 

So because I made a small joke about your beliefs you class that as uncivil behaviour? I think you take yourself too seriously. Regardless, I didn't mean to offend you. Please just respond to what I said.

However I have a strange sense that your idea of a "proper, intelligent debate" is two people who completely agree on a subject talking about how they completely agree on the subject. Because of course in this world everyone agrees with you and no one thinks differently.

 

Corien - I am arguing from a philosophical point of view. I want to find out if humans actually are animals or are we different. True, we definitely have similarities with animals because we evolved out of them. However I also think that humans have managed to break the barrier of what is animal and have because something very similar but different.

I think a human life is worth more than that of an animal, but that certainly does not mean I want to kill all animals. Emotionally I like animals, I don't want them to suffer, however it would be much MUCH worse for me if my loved ones were suffering than a dog or a cat and I believe this is the same for most if not all humans.

Basically, a human can love an animal but not on the same level as they love their wife or their kids. Otherwise, we would end up marrying animals

 

So, you believe in the soul do you? Please provide some sort of physical evidence that the soul exists without referring to the Bible and I may be inclined to believe you.

Oh and Corien, please don't say you hate animal cruelty when you subscribe and commit to it every day when you take a bite out of an animal's muscle tissue, because it just makes you look like a hypocrite. And if I were you I'd feel ashamed because I would know that I was committing downright murder.

 

I've decided to copy-paste what I said in the other thread about the Tasmanian Tiger because this is the same deal going on here.

This is a classic case of the arrogance of humans. The belief that other animals are not on our level, that they are somehow inferior to us because they can't speak and because they look different to us, is totally false. The belief that humans are somehow special and unique amongst animals is totally baseless and false. You think that because we've been around for what... 150,000 years or something, and because we build houses and cities and invent things and produce art that we are special? Many of the things we do can be seen in other species - birds build nests, we build houses.

Not only that, there are many things other animals can do that we could never hope to do without machines. Cats can run faster, jump higher, see more clearly, hear more clearly, smell more clearly than any human. Many animals are physically much stronger than even the strongest humans, and those animals usually come equipped with talons, claws or powerful jaws. Yet humans think that just because we have large brains that makes us superior to these other species, that because a cow is docile it is stupid, that because a pig rolls around in mud it is filthy and disgusting and greedy, that a chicken is nothing but a resource like iron or wood rather than a living, breathing entity with a complex nervous system just like ours.

What good have humans done for the world anyway? If we were truly special and great, don't you think that instead of being complete arrogant dicks we would be protecting other species and each other? Instead, like the apes we are, we fight over petty territorial disputes, resources, greed and power. So much for the humanity - we are no better than the animals you condemn to death on a daily basis.

Also the dinosaurs were around for millions of years... humans have only been around for about 150,000 - 200,000 years or something, and only 10,000 years of having civilisation. The rate at which we consume resources now is unprecedented, as is the population. 7 billion of us... it's insane. There are simply too many of us, yet instead of blaming ourselves most people blame other species, because the arrogant nature of humanity, born from the survival instinct and amplified by our aberrant intelligence, refuses to accept that they are the culprits for countless ethical wrongdoings.

There is no such thing as "what was meant to be". Everything hinges on the moment, on the now. Everything else is either memory or non-existent. This is a thing that animals understand better than a lot of humans, who get caught up in the past and the future rather than existing purely in the present which is all that exists. Life is mindless in its purest form, an unconscious chemical structure. Humans are an aberration who glorify themselves, seeing themselves as amazing, exceptional, superior etc. etc. There is no such thing as fate, no such thing as destiny. Humans, though aberrant in their level of intellect, are the only species capable of choosing whether to be savage barbarians or be noble protectors of life, yet most of us choose the former because it's "easy", and because they've been indoctrinated by generations of slavery of animals and humans to treat animals as slaves, as property.

But when you look at the way humans treat each other, it's no wonder they treat other animals with such cruelty and callousness. The vaunted, so-called "ascended species" the so-called "Children of God" the self-ascribed Lords of the Earth. The majority of us are callous, greedy, selfish overlords who seek nothing but slavery and death for each other and other species. Quite like the Vampire Counts actually.

It's this attitude that makes humans attack other species like the Tasmanian Tiger and drive them to extinction. They move somewhere, ascribe meaning to the place and define it as THEIR home and THEIR land, just like chimps, and attack, kill and enslave other species that live in the area that have been there much longer than them. Remember, the Tiger only attacked human-enslaved animals because the humans put them there for them to attack, the Tiger was only acting on its natural instincts.

I really am quite sick of people saying that humans are somehow better than other animals, because it's just not true.

 

Also don't try and ignore my posts because I am not going away.

 

Dreamer - Prove that the soul exists. The soul is not made of atoms so we can only see the effect of it on things. For example, there is no facility in our brain that makes us feel love (not lust that is different). Yet as I'm sure you know, love can be felt, it is not a lie. Love comes from the soul.

One kind of proof studied in higher level mathematics is proof by contradiction. Basically, no one can prove that the soul doesn't exist, it is impossible. So saying that it doesn't exist is not founded on any proper fact. So, the soul CAN exist.

Plus Dreamer, many things are murder. Abortion is murder too, even more so than killing animals. Should I fall down and commit suicide the next time I kill some bacteria, they are animals too you know.

I did not realise your comment was a joke, so sorry if I got annoyed.

 

Yes but I could say fairies exist and no one could disprove it if I said it with enough conviction and gusto, therefore they would exist because I would be going on and on about fairies existing and no one could disprove it.

And of course it's impossible to disprove the soul just like it's impossible to prove it exists, therefore, because it can neither be proven or disproven it should, logically, be taken as a false statement.

Also abortion could only be classified as murder if you were removing the fetus when it was developed enough to possess a a complex nervous system and a brain, if it is removed before that it cannot feel or perceive anything - it is just a collection of cells yet to develop any complex features.

And yeah you could take the whole ethical argument to the level where bacteria are classified as murder victims, if you were being silly of course... but you have to draw the line somewhere, and that line exists, in my opinion, with animals that possess a complex nervous system and the capacity to feel pain, both physical and psychological. Pigs have been frequently observed to go insane when locked in cages as they do in factory farms. Tiger mothers become depressed and lose the will to live when their young die. Humans experience the exact same emotions and reactions to events as other animals.

Bacteria, like plants, are such basic, simple life forms. They have no capacity to feel pain, no nervous system, no brain. Because suffering cannot be inflicted upon them (because they are incapable of detecting pain) they don't count. They are alive, yes, but they are just too basic to register.

 

Some animals have sex for the fun of it. Like dolphins.

Also I am more then sure that people did evolve from a animal on some point or the other. That or aliens what still makes more sense that what most religions present us with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_basis_of_love
You are simply wrong. There are numerous activities in the brain that cause physical and mental attraction and what can lead to "love". There are also animals who tend to pick one mate and stick with them until they die.
...I have also yet to meet a guy or even a woman in fact that does not think about sex quite often. Lust, desire and instinct. We are driven to mate like most animals as that is what le nature tends to want.

I am not sure if even beast within is a place to discuss something like that.

We are way more effective when it comes to killing. I find myself in agreement with most what you have said and through out history there are incredible examples just how bad humans can be once society/law factor is removed. Though I don't much blink or care when some species is wiped off the face of the earth that does not factor into humanity's survival. That is just me though and I can accept that some people flip out when some bug somewhere no longer exists.
Though I go O _ O in the moment my puppy makes a single whiny noise and I rush to investigate x)

But all in all I rather side with the theory's of scientists over that of religion X ( just put x there because there is a punch of them and everyone believes they are the ones in the right).

Edit: also the post just above mine. Lovely one DD.

 

Shareya - lust is not love. Even attraction isn't love. If it was then the whole of the male population would be in love with the most beautiful female on earth and not bother with loving others. The fact that we love almost at random shows that it cannot be a result of the brain. The human brain is logical, like a computer. It takes an input and gives an equivalent output, therefore random behaviour really doesn't exhibit in the brain. In the physical world, random does not exist. Fact. Even the vibrations of atoms, electron movement, everything is caused. Ask any physicist, everything that is physical has a cause, yet humans unlike any animals do completely random, unexplainable things. If nothing random comes from the physical then it must come from the metaphysical - the soul.

As for abortion, it has to be discussed SOMEWHERE, we can't just throw it under a rug and happily say it shouldn't be discussed. For me it is a tragedy and one that won't be resolved without discussing it.

Also, prominent scientists were religious. Many, many scientists better than any of us here on CN are religious, religion goes hand in hand with science. There are simply so many religions because the truth matters and it is so important that we are scared of getting it wrong, hence so many.

Dreamer - a life is still a life to me no matter how many cells it has. You say it's ok because they don't feel any pain....so if I sedated you then I could legally kill you because you don't feel anything? I disagree with that, death is still death no matter if you feel it or not.

You give extreme examples for animal emotion, however human emotion is so obviously more acute. Almost every decision is based on how we feel, sad, happy. Animals exhibit emotion in extreme instances, being locked up or losing a child but not in everyday situations (as in a normal, natural day for said animal) they are not governed by petty emotions. We are, the fact we are having this debate is proof of that.

 

And what evidence do you have that animals don't feel emotions? Just because they don't express themselves to us in the way we are used to does not mean that they do not have emotions. Perhaps they aren't as complex as ours, but again, that's because of our heightened intellect.

As I have already said, emotions are simply an extension of instincts, things that all animals live by. Humans are no better, they follow instincts, and emotions are simply our way of understanding our basic needs. There are no "petty emotions", in fact there are only a handful of real emotions, such as anger, sadness and joy. Many of the things people call emotions are actually responses to events, such as depression being a state brought on by an emotional reaction to certain stimuli (bullying, deaths of loved ones, etc.)

Also, lust does factor in heavily when it comes to two people forming a relationship. Physical attraction is very important - a celibate partnership is very unlikely to occur. Like it or not, sex is a very important aspect of human life, whether for reproduction or pleasure.

And surely even if animals only express emotions in "extreme" circumstances, that proves that they express emotions, therefore they have the capacity to feel emotions, therefore they are on the same level as us in that regard - perhaps not in terms of who we should prioritise when it comes down to survival, but on the level of intelligence.

 

I never said animals don't have emotions, they do, however I also have legs and the fact that animals have legs doesn't mean they are on the same level as me.

Celibate relationships do work though. You can love someone without wanting to have sex with them, yes it is possible.

Prove that there are only a few real emotions. Because to me Jealousy sure does feel different to anger which feels different to annoyance which feels different to unease. They are like flavours, some are similar but each is different, lemons may be similar to oranges but the taste is decidedly different.

Today I felt happy that I managed to get off a decent paint job. I felt happiness the emotion. it was not my way of understanding my basic needs, I was simply happy due to doing a good job. I didn't need to paint, but it did make me happy.

 

No, you felt joy, not happiness. Happiness does not exist, it is just a word. There is only joy and sorrow. Emotions are not thoughts they are physical feelings that happen in reaction to stimuli. For example when you feel angry you feel hot, you feel tense. THAT is what emotions are, not thoughts you have. A lot of people confuse thoughts with emotions - further evidence that the human brain is incompetent since it can't even understand itself.

Thoughts can lead to emotions, and emotions can lead to thoughts, but the two are always different in that thoughts are not physical.

Also you're just saying that animals are different. What exactly is it that makes animals different to us? The inability to create art? The idea of a soul, which has no scientific support at all, and which is born from doctrine that teaches human superiority and exceptionalism with no evidence to the contrary? The differences between us and other species are very few, if there are any at all, and all of the possible differences are trivial things.

I don't understand why you find it so hard to comprehend that we are animals and that we behave in almost exactly the same way as other species.

After all, both cats and humans have to eat, sleep and poop.

 

DD I have to say that your form has improved a lot! While a few of your posts can be viewed as a tad agressive they are for the most part very constructive, very informative and well written. For this I thank you.! And I do in fact share a lot of your views, at least to some degree.

These subjects are always hard to discuss as it often touches our very core beliefs.

@arien, a dog shows joy by wagging it's tail, induced by scratching it behind the ear.. This isn't an extreme condition. Just because we can't deduce how animals convey emotions does not negate the fact that some of them do, we just aren't clever enough to know..

If a human is left alone for a prolonged period of time they lose the ability to speak and devolve to a more animalistic state even though they had the ability to speak and function normally before. (by the power of grey skull, I can't find the source on this now )

 

I agree with that and by a big degree. I personally get touchy at the subject as it quickly moves onto for example rape victims and at those moments I want to murder certain individuals. Especially a wonderful American politician who said women who get raped but in the end did not really want it can't get pregnant. Thanks religion.

Most of said random things are caused when the human is suffering under stress and extreme emotions. So her brain gets flooded with god knows what chemical reactions and it rips away reason and so forth, so forth.
It's like a lion will pit herself against unfavorable odds to save her cub. Her brain just goes peep peep, insinct / flood body with adredaline /your good to go!

Quite wrong. This is a argument religious people like to bring up but it's simply silly. Most of said scientists where of the old ages where...well as you can imagine many things where still not understood and witches where burnt in the name of god.
People mostly seek religion because they are afraid of death and oblivion that follows. That or they take comfort that all bad things happen to them for a reason and god has a plan for everything.


Edit:

And animal + emotions. I will bring you a few examples using my own puppy.
When I was sick and laying down he constantly came to me to lick my hand and make sad little noises and overall trying to be close until I felt better.
When I am away for even some hours or half a day and return home he flops his ears, runs around me, tries to get me to hug him and so forth, so forth.
I mean god the internet is full of examples of how animals display love, devotion and how far they have gone to protect their family and masters. More often they display more care then most humans do for others. My pup at least is a member of ze family and I do damn well care more for him then most humans on this planet.

 

Well as far as I am concerned humans are on an entirely different plain as animals. First of all we are sentient, we also create art and other humanistic paths. Also we question. We question ourselves, and everything around us, if this doesn't set us apart nothing will.

 

Well I'm lagging behind by 3-4 posts I can't keep up guys I'll go back to spectater mode for now

The fear of death as a result of our highly evolved intellect is what to me legitimize religion in modern age.. Wow it is scary to think that we simply end when we die, I can totally see why people need to comfort themselves with the fact that there is something after death.. I can't even say I myself wont go a little religious on my deathbed

 

Wow, Well I can't type without getting ninja'd so I'm just going to read.

ENTERTAIN ME!