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Communism & associated tangents

Discussion in 'The Beast Within' started by Count Darvaleth, May 14, 2012.

  1. The Dead King Of Dead Stuff

    The Dead King Of Dead Stuff Skeleton

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    There are a few problems i have with this Communist Utopia (none involve this computer im going to assume its infallible and perfect and unhackable for arguements sake :))

    The Archivist said "we can only pick at the computer because it is the only thing to dispute" which it isnt, because of the fact that there is tons of other ideologies, moderate versions of ideologies and a whole host of things such as differing opinions which make society work, which leads me to the question how would you deal with free speech? Immigration? How about emmigration? would it become like Cuba where you need to go through a long and arduous process that is usually futile to get out of the country? I agree with many of your points and ideas, i infact agree with Socialism/Communism as a whole (for the most part) and id like to see your arguements xD
    Cheers!
     
  2. The Dread King

    The Dread King Moderator Staff Member True Blood TVC II GM

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    Humanity is selfish. If all its desires were fulfilled, it would be bored and there would be nothing left for it to do, as the computer had helped it do everything. There would be no variation between things to spice lives up, no dangers to avoid. The point about this computer is that when we get it, the new challenges will be finally conquered forever and there will be nothing left for us to achieve. We also wouldn't progress too much academically, only a bit as imagination was slowly lost.
     
  3. Chaos_Born

    Chaos_Born Master Necromancer True Blood

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    I may just copy and paste my previous response. I know the computer would satisfy everything and we'd get bored, that's exactly why we'd go out into the stars to find something to do. I don't know about you, but when I get bored I don't just sit there and do nothing. I go out and find something to do
     
  4. The Dread King

    The Dread King Moderator Staff Member True Blood TVC II GM

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    Yeah, but what about when we'd been in the stars and introduced the infinte computer of awesomeness to everyone? Then, there would be no conflict, and therefore no progression, imagination and excitement. The point of existence would cease.
     
  5. The Archivist

    The Archivist Archivist of the word The Staff Member True Blood

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    Then, my friend, we will be in the 21st Millenium. 20000 years later and we're all DOOMED!

    Although honestly, if we ever reach a point where everything is perfect, we will have found a means to avoid stagnation. Stagnation is itself an imperfection xD
     
  6. The Dread King

    The Dread King Moderator Staff Member True Blood TVC II GM

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    Indeed, we will have a perfect doom after this computer is brought about.
     
  7. Sanai

    Sanai Stylish Deviant True Blood

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    Actually there is a way to have earth and everything on it achieve perfection- it is just beyond our scientific ability at the moment, and also a very "bad" idea.

    A strangelet is a hypothetical particle so stable, or "perfect" that scientists believe that if a strangelet came into contact with normal matter, it would immediatly turn that other particle into another strangelet. Any matter converted into "strange matter" would of course domino on turning any matter it is in contact with into strange matter, until the entire earth is a perfect lump of the most stable matter possible.

    At this point, the earth would be perfect. The human race would not exist anymore, but it would be perfect.

    Personally, I doubt humanity will ever achieve anything nearing Utopia or perfection: I think aliens will find us, see how horrible and dangerous humans are and turn the earth into a molten ball of slag long before anything like that can happen.
     
  8. Chaos_Born

    Chaos_Born Master Necromancer True Blood

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    I think that space is so huge and harsh that it's unlikely that any aliens (in the incredibly unlikely event that they find us at all) will bring any kind of weapon of mass destruction or invasion force or anything capable of wiping out humanity all the way across from wherever they are. Unless they were on some kind of religious crusade...

    God how I hate religion.



    (See what I did therexD)
     
  9. Sanai

    Sanai Stylish Deviant True Blood

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    Actually, based on humanities own exponential developement, even if the chance of sentient life emerging is pretty tiny, any galaxy, even universe would pretty quickly fill up to the brim with massive space born civilisations. Many scientists have asked in light of this- why don't we meet any aliens or see any evidence of them when their should be multitudes of them filling up the galaxy?

    The most likely answer to this is that at some point in every cycle of life in the galaxy/universe one civilisation out of the multitudes inevitably decides to build an automated device to destroy any civilisations or life it encounters to prevent any threats to the civilisation emerging. These are called Von Neumann probes and are logically a very likely prospect that explains our lack of alien encounters- all of the many civilisations that rise up are eventually eradicated by automated probes which prevent the galaxy from filling up.


    Also, mere distance is overcomeable by technology- Fusion or Anti-matter power sources are generally believed to be sufficient to enable interstellar travel in a reasonable amount of time. It is just a case of statistics- does your civilisation reach the requisite level of technology without suffering extinction or exhausting the finite resources of its home through excessive waste (I.e humans, it is theoretically possible that by using up all of the oil, we have squandered our chances of having a suitable energy/technology base to develop the technology to leave our solar system)

    On a final note, there are very few reasons for aliens to visit earth-
    -Resources- Why come to earth? Most elements can be found throughout the galaxy. Just stop of at any solar system to mine.
    -Trade- again, why? The technology and resources for space travel means the alien race definatly does not need anything from us that they cannot get from uninhabited rocks nearer to their homes or from other interstellar civilisations.
    -Threat elimination- This is one of the most likely. Any civilisation that wants to preserve itself long into the future would likely seek to identify any threats out there and eliminate them before they can become a problem. Most likely to be used for this would be the automated von neuman probes mentioned earlier.
    -Habitation- This is another likely scenario. Assuming convergent evolution, or at least that other life prefers planets with land and oceans and an atmosphere to dead rocks and gas giants, then earth is a pretty valuable and rare world- we have yet to identify another like earth, so habitable worlds would be a vary valuable commodity. Of course the problem is removing the humans who would be unlikely to be willing to share earth and who use up so much space and resources.
    -Curiosity- This is semi-likely- Scientists do like to study things, but this would likely not involve large scale stuff, as studying us would not likely justify large amounts of expenditure over more tangible benefits.
    -Beliefs/Ideals/Religion/Etc- Any culture does have its various beliefs and values. An alien race may believe that some holy being wants them to come to earth for some reason, or an alien race could find our existence to be offensive, which would warrant a pretty hostile venture to earth. Or they could believe that it is a good idea to come to earth and paint all of the left handed people yellow. You can never really know with minds that have nothing in common with ours.


    One big thing to watch out for would be significant events in our science that are easily detectable- Our explosions of atomic bombs was one, us putting out radio signals is another. In future us achieving interstellar travel or creating an antimatter annihilation could be other things to get us noticed. Alien civilisations could potentially watch for signs that another civilisation has hit a certain point in its progress- once you have split the atom or created antimatter for example, could mean you are a potential threat. Of course, if I was an alien race watching earth, I would wait to see if humanity burns itself out before acting- Why wipe us out when we can do it ourselves?

    Anyways, apart from my rambling- I personally do not think communism is an achievable system in the modern world. For one thing, no one has adequately explained to me how you would move into such a system, or the mechanics of socialism/communism- If all of the people own everything, then how do the people decide what to do with everything? Do they take a vote? Would it not then be more efficient to elect certain representatives instead of the entire nation taking a vote for every little thing? Isn't that what democracy is anyway?

    Of course, in communism it is the state that actually owns everything, not the "people". Personally I think "the people" is to much of an abstract term.

    In the end, I actually honestly think a far better system would be for everyone to just submit to me in a dictatorship. A dictatorship would actually work pretty well so long as you have a reasonable, rational person (such as myself) as the dictator, and so long as enough people did their part to carry out the dictator's orders.

    So come on, pick up your weapon of choice (grassroots action, social media, hacking skills, ak-47s, mind altering substances) and help me to become your lord and master.
     
  10. spineyrequiem

    spineyrequiem Necromancer

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    Benevolent dictatorship is definitely the best form of government, in my opinion. It's (potentially) very efficient, your lovely ruler can keep going as long as he's physically capable (rather than having to step down after an arbitrary term) and it removes populism from the equation of ruling. A ruler should be good at ruling, not at convincing people he'll be good at ruling. His lifetime tenure also means he can take difficult short-term decisions which will have long-term benefits without fear of losing the next election and being kicked out of power, which democratically elected governments often cannot do.

    Why do I think dictatorship is (potentially) better than democracy? Because most people seem to be morons. Seriously, have a look at youtube comments, the shadier chatrooms or the Jeremy Kyle show. Have a look at the newspapers, most particularly at those magazines discussing whether or not a woman who, up until last week, was a complete unknown has put on a few pounds or has been seen going to shop, beach or other place visited by many as part of their everyday life. Have a look at the national education statistics; apparently, the average British person's qualifications are three GCSEs. That is, three GCSEs that managed to achieve a mark other than 'unclassified'. I got A*s and, apparently, 100% in all three of my science GCSEs. I skipped out questions, even whole pages, on all of them. GCSEs are NOT ESPECIALLY DIFFICULT (I refuse to believe that I'm simply insanely clever). Do we really want this sort of person deciding how this country is run? They are asked their opinion on matters of which they likely have little or no knowledge, and THAT OPINION MATTERS. What does the average farmhand know about international banking? Equally, what does the average fast food server know about farming regulations? What do I know about them? Why should I get to elect the person who decides what they are.

    The problem with benevolent dictatorship is, of course, that it's very hard to find a totally benevolent dictator. However, Sanai said that he is such a person, and I trust him, so I'll have my massive horde of masked, heavily-armed freedom fighters storming Parliament on Monday, that work for you Sanai?
     
  11. Shadow14_8

    Shadow14_8 Ghoul

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    You cant have a "benevolent dictator" because for him to come to that status would include anything but benevolent actions. Every communist dictatorship throughout history has basically taken the same actions. namely terminating the intellectual classes, clergy etc. Please ask yourself why? The entire history of Communism is ripe with psychopathy. Again ask yourself why? The entire argument for a dictator system is evil in the sense that inflicting your will on other people by force (which is the only way you can accomplish it) is inheritally evil.

    Im not defending "American capitilism and Imperialism" by the way. This system of Corporatism is also evil as the world knows full well. But a fair capitilism system would be the best for people. Unfortunately, this currently doesnt exist in the world even though the propaganda machine would make you think so. I feel maybe many opinions that are negative toward a REAL capitalism are coming from the current setup which is a monopoly and effects us normal people negatively.
     
  12. Sanai

    Sanai Stylish Deviant True Blood

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    Wrong, yes it would take forceful action to gain power, but if that forceful action is only done because the dictator is doing it for the greater good instead of his own personal gain, then the actions are still benevolent.

    Most dictators in history have been out for their own gain or for really twisted, evil morals rather than for the greater good. A dictator who actually 1# Only wants to be dictator because he knows it is better for everyone and 2# Knows for certain he is the right choice for the job- Would definatly be a benevolent dictator.

    Force and even violence can be benevolent rather than malevolent, if it is only carried out because it is 1# Necessary and 2# going to improve more life than it takes. (i.e, quarantine is one example of this- you quarantine one group of sick people, even though it lessens their chance of survival, to avoid them infecting a greater number of people. You deprive them of their liberty and probably their life to avoid greater suffering and death.)
     
  13. spineyrequiem

    spineyrequiem Necromancer

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    You'd be amazed how many dictators were democratically elected... all the killing was only AFTER being elected, and was partially just because they were mental. See Napoleon III for an example: his coup after being elected was nearly bloodless, and he retained high popularity for a very long time.
     
  14. Sanai

    Sanai Stylish Deviant True Blood

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    Julius Caeser was a dictator who gained power largely through public acclaim combined with political maneuvering and having favour with the legions (and people were tired of the senate bickering all the time)
     
  15. Chaos_Born

    Chaos_Born Master Necromancer True Blood

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    Well that clinches it then. Dictatorship it is, Sanai make your march and I'll follow you.

    Just what any good Skaven chieften would say...
     
  16. The Dread King

    The Dread King Moderator Staff Member True Blood TVC II GM

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    The only system that is perfect is individualism. There are no flaws with it as their are no rules. Individualism cannot be bent or twisted by dictators-there is no government to take control. Animals use individualism, and it works pretty well for them. Of course, it slows humanity's progress a lot, but it works perfectly, which has got to count for something.
     
  17. Sanai

    Sanai Stylish Deviant True Blood

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    Sure, individualism is great. Now ill just be shooting you and taking your sister/girlfriend for myself because there is now law enforcement to stop me.
     
  18. Chaos_Born

    Chaos_Born Master Necromancer True Blood

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    Wait a minute...perhaps Sanai isn't such a great candidate for world leadership if he goes doing stuff like that. I'm loosing faith here Sanai
     
  19. Sanai

    Sanai Stylish Deviant True Blood

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    Shit, I better send the secret police.... stay exactly where you are Chaos, the black helicopters are NOT coming to kidnap you and brainwash you into being my loyal follower.
     
  20. Lynks

    Lynks Lord of RAW Staff Member True Blood

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    No, they are coming to kidnap then brutally murder him D:
     
  21. Sanai

    Sanai Stylish Deviant True Blood

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    Lies! It is my opponents that are kidnapping him and brutally murdering him! That is why you must help me to power so these brutal murders can be stopped!
     
  22. The Dread King

    The Dread King Moderator Staff Member True Blood TVC II GM

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    As an individualist, I will help you but will probably kill you afterwards-as your guards are individualists, they might help me. You can't rely on them-power is a trick, not a truth. Sometimes it has teeth, but it's not invincible.
     

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