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Everything is predetermined

Discussion in 'The Beast Within' started by MasterSpark, Jul 2, 2015.

  1. MasterSpark

    MasterSpark Nostalgian Staff Member True Blood

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    Hi all,

    This is a theory I’ve had brewing for quite a long time.

    When I go to work in the morning I often run into a situation when crossing the street where there’s a car that passes at the exact same moment that I am, and the car has to stop to let me go first. I’m the only pedestrian there and they’re the only motorist.

    Now, imagine that everything in our lives has led up to this moment where we’re on a collision course with each other. Every single choice we’ve made in our lives has had the outcome that on this particular day we run into each other. If either of us had been 10 seconds earlier or later we would have passed each other without any hassle. If I had gone to sleep 15 minutes earlier 5 years ago I might have been 10 seconds earlier out the door on this day.

    It was predetermined. Everything that happens anywhere, in any place, is the result of a long string of happenings that results in it. It is all a logical end for many different things. Random does not exist. If you try to think of a random number there will still be a traceable thought process in your mind that leads to the number you choose. Every action we take comes from a process of thought. Something appears random because we don’t know all the variables that causes it, and even if we did have them we wouldn’t be able to calculate what they all mean together. But imagine if you actually could. Imagine standing in front of a map that shows every happening in our world and how they relate to each other. Imagine being able to trace the lives of two entirely different people to see how they eventually end up married and how many things that actually have occurred to make that a reality, and then to see a breakdown of everything that led to those things happening. If you tried to subvert this it would still not change anything since your actions would be as traceable as the rest and the end for those two would not have been marriage after all.

    Now I’m starting to rant but my end point is this: fate is real and inescapable. Everything that has happened came out of something. The only thing that didn’t is that which came first of all. We can only fathom that things appear out of something else, but something must have come first. Could that thing have come out of nothing? It would be the only thing outside the logical trail that binds the universe and if there actually is anything like a god, I think that would be it.

    I might have gone out on a different tangent in that last bit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2015
    Menkeroth likes this.
  2. Crystal

    Crystal Grave Guard

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    I have an interesting answer for this you may/may not enjoy. Although on my phone would be painful to type so I'll respond when I'm on my laptop
     
  3. MasterSpark

    MasterSpark Nostalgian Staff Member True Blood

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    By all means, reply again when you have the time!
     
  4. Crystal

    Crystal Grave Guard

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    OK, so I'll start off with a bit of background. I was a science student for college but since I was much younger I've been learning Alchemy on my own (Don't listen to the stupid rumours about it being based entirely in magic or the goal being solely to turn base metals into gold, this is wrong and insulting) Apologies for the little rant, you wouldn't believe how annoying that gets. So anyway, with my experience even in college I was baffling teachers that had PhD's in their respective fields and have had many deep conversations with them about such things so I do know what I am talking about. Its not just baseless beliefs but based on my own experiences, scientific logic (Particularly Quantum and Astral physics) and Alchemy (which meant I failed my first year of exams, but in my second year which was assignment based, my teachers openly told me I failed before due to my answers being university level not college level so they had to grade me on a higher merit in order for the answers to be acceptable. Again I apologise for stressing this but I really hate when people dismiss my opinion due to groundless stigma...and it occurs to me I'm getting a lil angrier than I should.) Now with the background covered let's move on to my actual explanation.

    Now everyone should be familiar with the concept of different dimensions. (Not the dimensions movies and comics say which is different universes, science makes a clear distinction) No, I'm talking about length, width, depth, time, etc. Now the current most accepted theory for the number of dimensions is from string theory which suggests at least 10 dimensions, the theory states length, width, depth as dimensions 1-3, time as 4, alternate timelines as 5-6, alternate universes as 7-9 then dimension 10 would be the sum of all dimensions. While this is very simplistic, it is the best I can explain with science. Now if you imagine a cosmic graph. Everyone is familiar with the x and y axes, if you add z you get a 3-dimensional graph which is the most we can physically represent. If you throw in the 3 dimensions of time alone, then you would need to trace every possible nano second for every occurrence that can happen in each of those times along all 3 other axes. Its difficult to imagine I know, but consider every feasible event to show every possible chance of an atom pairing with another anywhere in the universe or my best example is that it is about a 30minute walk to town from my home, on the way I listen to music. I have 442 songs on my phone plus 87 in a separate folder and more than 20 audio books. Counting the initial 442 alone, each ranging between 54 seconds and 11minutes 34 seconds. (Yes I love my music so as a joke I learned to tell the time at work based on the songs I've sung that's why I know those numbers) Anyway for ease of calculating call the average 5 minutes at 400 songs. Now calculate how many possible combinations at 30 minutes, 5 mins per song, 400 songs and factor in the variation in the amount of time between deciding songs or every possible moment I may change song and which song I choose. For each of those there is an individual branching path. Leading to an inconceivable number of possible timelines.

    This is the simple scientific basis without considering dimensions 7-10. Just to give you a frame of reference. However, science has long since turned a blind eye to what it cannot see. Because we exist on dimension 4 we can perceive our own dimension, hence understand the transition of time and control dimensions below because of this. Hence pick up and move objects or move around. This is a bit misleading though as the dimensions can be placed into groups and separated in such a way that things such as the Higgs Boson may exist on only a single dimension in our view (but as they can move, clearly exist on time but only a single of the main dimensions we perceive. This is where in things like in Alchemy we separate them into planes (effectively different words but very similar meanings) It is a different grouping system that separates dimensions into planes, meaning you may exist on any or all of the considered dimensions in a single plane without obstructing your lack of perception on others. These are then separated into tiers, if one existed high on the time plane they would be able to perceive seconds as if they were millimetres. It may be hard to comprehend but try to imagine, since an object that may exist in what we consider to be 2-d would be incapable of seeing that third axis in the same way we cannot see alternate events of time. (I know this is long winded but I need to provide background, plus examples to make my actual explanation of the initial post understandable)

    Now for dimensions 7-9, alternate universes (NOT timelines) bear different laws, effectively everything you imagine or is drawn, animated, etc. Or things we cannot conceive all exist in their own universes which follow their own laws and principles which are as true to them as the laws of thermodynamics are to us with their paths branching and being determined with much the same randomness as our own being that fantasies can be remembered, stories told to another will be expanded in their minds, dreams, fanfics, etc. However, as I stated before science is oblivious to what can not be seen at first glance and since many scientists focus solely on career and not the truth they are afraid to touch less known subjects through all the stigma and false reports.

    So we need to look into further planes that we cannot see but have been experienced by many in simple ways. In Alchemy it is necessary to form a bond with objects you wish to synthesise, a kind of emotional attachment if you will. I bring this up because it is one thing that is commonly overlooked by the general populace in more or less everything. It is also a staple of the occult which is not commonly known either (due to all of the fake books and stuff that go around to make a quick buck off the idiots that just want the next cool thing as opposed to those who would spend years studying to understand their art) The occult is kind of a fixture in my family as well, so my brother is always 100% accurate with tarot cards even if he refuses to believe in divination. I can do the same but not with tarot cards, instead I have been even more accurate with a legend of the five rings deck simply because I spent so much time with it and took such careful care of it.

    But in more commonly known events, have you ever had it when with someone you've spent inordinate amounts of time with or are very close to, even when halfway across the country or further you have both had the same song stuck in your head on the same day having not heard the song in years, or to feel something is wrong with them even without seeing them or hearing their voice. Even things such as women's menstrual cycles synchronising when they live or work closely together. These are all simple levels of bonds that are formed on one of these planes that can't be covered by sciences 10 dimensions. It is the same for those people who give off (for lack of a better word) an aura that despite their body language, facial expression or personality can give a specific impression of them. I know from personal experience that there have been a few times when at work people have been terrified to go near me since despite my smile, dancing, etc because my mood was so sour they couldn't explain it when I asked them, my boss herself said she could best describe it like an aura. And with many people when I want to help them I've been told that just having me nearby has been enough to calm them down or help them feel better even if I only say a few words.

    So to sum up now that I've wasted soooo much of everyone's time. To answer the initial statement, its not fate. It more closely resembles a faint bond, that because the more you've noticed the encounter the more likely it is to occur on this particular timeline. Being that much like twins can synchronise their actions without words and without telepathy or how people's bodies can sync up. Like I'm sure you all know the feeling of everyone in your family needing the toilet or going for a shower at more or less identical times even when its outside of the usual morning or night times. It all follows roughly these same principles which are based on a non-physical bond.

    Whew that took forever. I know its a lot to take in but I hope its understandable and I really hope it helped to shed some light on the initial statement.
     
  5. Alabaster427

    Alabaster427 Minister of Thriftiness True Blood

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    The way I see it, there are infinite timelines that COULD happen, but as far as we know, only one does. If you had been ten seconds later or earlier, and infinite number of things could have changed, like you getting hit, or the driver getting into an accident. I think the Douglas Adams explains it best:

    It is of course well known that careless talk costs lives, but the full scale of the problem is not always appreciated.
    For instance, at the very moment that Arthur said "I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle," a freak wormhole opened up in the fabric of the space-time continuum and carried his words far far back in time across almost infinite reaches of space to a distant Galaxy where strange and warlike beings were poised on the brink of frightful interstellar battle.
    The two opposing leaders were meeting for the last time.
    A dreadful silence fell across the conference table as the commander of the Vl'hurgs, resplendent in his black jewelled battle shorts, gazed levelly at the G'Gugvuntt leader squatting opposite him in a cloud of green sweet-smelling steam, and, with a million sleek and horribly beweaponed star cruisers poised to unleash electric death at his single word of command, challenged the vile creature to take back what it had said about his mother.
    The creature stirred in his sickly broiling vapour, and at that very moment the words I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle drifted across the conference table.
    Unfortunately, in the Vl'hurg tongue this was the most dreadful insult imaginable, and there was nothing for it but to wage terrible war for centuries.
    Eventually of course, after their Galaxy had been decimated over a few thousand years, it was realized that the whole thing had been a ghastly mistake, and so the two opposing battle fleets settled their few remaining differences in order to launch a joint attack on our own Galaxy - now positively identified as the source of the offending remark.
    For thousands more years the mighty ships tore across the empty wastes of space and finally dived screaming on to the first planet they came across - which happened to be the Earth - where due to a terrible miscalculation of scale the entire battle fleet was accidentally swallowed by a small dog.
    Those who study the complex interplay of cause and effect in the history of the Universe say that this sort of thing is going on all the time, but that we are powerless to prevent it.
    "It's just life," they say.
     
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  6. Mad 'At

    Mad 'At Dumb enough to work Staff Member True Blood

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    @Crystal: Have you seen the film Flatland (or the two films rather)? It explains the concept of dimensions in a very fascinating way.

    @MasterSpark: I've been thinking the same thing about stings of event leaning down to a specific results. And how things can appear random but in actuality are not because with enough knowledge the outcome can be calculated.

    In cases with non-living things this is fairly easy and very exact, using laws of mechanics. If we release a ball in mid-air we can assume it will collide with anything bellow it. And with enough knowledge of the air currents in the vicinity we can even calculate exactly where it will fall.

    When counting in living things, and even humans, it gets trickier. But in the end it is all variables. With enough knowledge on a person I think it is possible to calculate how this person would react in any given situation, or a least to a very high probability.

    However, when taking things one step further it gets complicated. Since everything in the universe is basically particles moving around and interacting with each other, one could actually predict everything if they knew where all the particles were and where they are heading. By now I think some of the readers know where I am going with this. But, according to quantum mechanics, and more precisely Hesienberg's Uncertainty Principle, one cannot know both the velocity (speed and direction) and the position of a particle. The more you know about the velocity the less certain you can be of its position and vice versa. Because of this it is impossible to know the exact position and exact velocity of any given particle, and in this case it means the future can't be predicted 100%.

    To me (and I know I am not the first to think like this) it means that there actually is free will, and that some things are predetermined. If the future cannot, in theory, be calculated and predicted then it can be "changed" also. It is however theoretically possible to calculate things down to a very high certainty, at least when looking at the big perspective. So a lot of things could potentially be predicted. In your case it leads to the question to how long ago it could have been calculated that you and a specific motorist would meet at that junction. And to that I have no answer but probably quite long ago xD

    In either case, I'll recommend you a film too. The Adjustment Bureau, it is about calculating futures and stuff.
     
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  7. Mad 'At

    Mad 'At Dumb enough to work Staff Member True Blood

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    Although, there is also this to consider...
     
  8. Grish

    Grish Moderator Staff Member True Blood

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    String theory is not 10 dimensions. From the books I've read on it and super symmetry, the number of dimensions is arbitrarily selected from where the math seems to 'solve cleanly'. I haven't' taken a quantum mechanics course, I've read a bunch of metaphysics books from the early 2000s. I've read Kaku, Sagan, Hawking, Feynman and wheeler. Read some others as well but those are really strong physicists.

    There is strong evidence for other dimensions but even if it were so, it still begs the question of a 'first pusher'.

    The main one I remember was written by Michio Kaku... "Hyperspace". String theory comes from an attempt to bind gravity into the 3 other forces for a unified theory. And from what I've read, it is just a theory. There are no proofs of any other dimensions, there's no proofs of 5th, 6th, nth dimensions subsecting other dimensions at right angles.

    The uncertainty principle is based on measurements; not that a particle is random. Just that the act of measuring a particle influences that particles behaviour.

    And as to 'everything is predetermined' that may be so, but there is so much fuzziness at the quantum level and so many unexplained (but repeatable) effects like linked particles (forget the technical name, but the 'spin' on them can be influenced remotely by breaking apart the particles... I think Bell did this experiment), the double slit hole experiment and the theorized pilot wave, quantum leaps of particles doing small teleports...

    @MS there is still much to be explained in physics. I get your point and I do agree, but it's really depressing to live life that way. So willfully blind yourself. It also opens up the door to the question of... well everything. Morality, accountibility... a murder would not be at fault, it's all predetermined. Every game of warhammer predetermined so why bother playing (joke)?

    Also the first pusher problem... if everything is in motion from something else... something must have moved first right? Unless there's no beginning?

    Edit: originally type there is no proof of a 4th dimension. Time is definitely the 4th dimension.
     

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