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Everything said here, stays here

Discussion in 'The Beast Within' started by Mello, Sep 19, 2012.

  1. Mello

    Mello Hasn't left TVC for the rest of the forum True Blood

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    Well, I saw a type of thread like this pop up on the quote bar at the top, but for the life of me could not find one..

    So, as I usually do: if there's a problem, fix it yourself.

    Well, here's a good thing to start with. I detest ordinary people with a vengeance. They just cause society to exist, and that is a rotten and horrible thing in itself. It's just humanity's ability to just be so selfish and cowardly that makes me hate it..

    I mean 38 people watched a 26 year old get assaulted with a knife, not once, not twice, but three times, and only after the girl was killed fatally, where the man living at the top of the stairs opened his door, saw here lying there dying, and closed his door. It took 10 minutes, and a discussion with a foreign friend for someone to even phone the police!!

    Why? Because what I classify as "ordinary" people, i.e the 95% of people who are classified as mentally sound, are too scared, too scared to do something that the crowd isn't. 38 people look out, 38 people see their counterparts not doing anything, so they copy, they don't want to stick out.

    How can humans be this flawed at all? And this isn't me just getting angry (if I'm even capable of the emotion) over the death of this girl, that was in 1960, when people actually spoke to their neighbors.

    Another classic example, Stanley Milgram's study. He found out that 65% of people would kill a man by electric shock, and then continue to shock him, as long as they had authority to obey, blame, or try and give credence to.

    So, 95% of the world, make me like you :)
     
  2. Sanai

    Sanai Stylish Deviant True Blood

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    I would be careful there- you can say you want the world to all be courageous and not ignore the bad things that are going on..... but I would prefer if first you provide examples of what you yourself are doing to make the world a better place.

    Firstly, most people are generally good people- it is just that we all have a very powerful instinct of self preservation. It is one thing to say that you would do something or be heroic, but NO ONE knows what they would do in that situation until they are in it. Again, it is good here to provide an example where you risked your life to save someone from a knifing. Sure, you may believe now that you would do the "right" thing, but it has little. bearing on what would actually happen in reality, as right now you have time to think, in those situations you do not and your sentient brain is not making the decisions, your animal instincts are. Alot of people are actually incapable of action as they just freeze, being unable to help no matter how much they want to.

    Secondly, Milgram's study is very flawed. Firstly, you misword the reference to his studies. The shocks were not "to death" they were simply up to max on a dial- death was never mentioned. Secondly, his studies were about obedience to authority- the people were not doing it "because they could" but simply "because they were being ordered to". More recent, more scientific repeats of his old experiments found that people would only deliver the shocks under the right conditions, in which they believe that administering the shocks are necessary (such as for the good of science). Also, the fact that any sane right thinking person knows that scientists simply ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE PEOPLE ELECTROCUTED TO DEATH, most test subjects would assume that the shocks were safe.


    Thirdly, your negative attitude, that same attitude that is shared by many is likely the number one reason for humanities problems. Negative attitudes such as that are why the worlds problems go unfixed, why people don't bother to step forward and help people in need- because they have already given up on humanity and society as being a bad thing and set themselves to hating it. Hating or detesting society will not help it. It is through love and compassion that healing and progress comes, because compassion and forgiveness is the mechanism through which you choose not to give up on someone, to keep helping them.

    It is easy to despise and hate society. It takes strength and compassion to look at the worlds/peoples flaws and love it/them anyway.

    I am sorry if you take offense to this, but speaking frankly and honestly is what this section is for, and this is what I believe.
     
  3. Count Darvaleth

    Count Darvaleth I <3 marmite Staff Member True Blood

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    I am similarly careful when it comes to things like this. I can't say, honestly, that I would rally the crowd and lead a charge to save the girl. I've fortunately not been in a situation where life and death are in the balance. Unfortunately, that means I can't know how I would actually react in such a situation.

    I would also challenge the idea of an "ordinary" person. Somebody can only be "ordinary" because a sufficient proportion of the population is similar to them. There isn't a set list of "ordinary" characteristics. I don't mean to advocate the same old boring "we're all special" argument, but I don't believe that you can define "ordinary" in any other way than by saying an ordinary person is somebody who shares characteristics with a significant proportion of the population. They're only ordinary because enough people are similar to them; they could no longer be ordinary if everybody changed, but that's unlikely. (Or is it? Past generations are more racist, and in today's world it's unacceptable whereas for them it was "ordinary".)

    However, I can empathise in some areas. I can't stand laziness and incompetence. I consider myself actually very lazy, and I can often be very incompetent too. Imagine my frustration with people who I would consider seriously lazy. The sort of people who turn up to college, and, when asked where their essay is, can't give you an answer. And they consistently fail to produce any work. They go home and just do nothing. AND they don't do anything "extra-curricular", like drama, sport, music etc. AND they do "Mickey-Mouse" A-levels. AND, even though they don't do any work anyway, and have masses of free time due to having no life-interests, they STILL drop an A-level halfway through their first year because it's "too much work". AND they still complain about how hard their work is! :swear:

    These people do wind me up. I wouldn't call them "ordinary", though (unless I'm feeling very depressed about human society). I call them "bland", or "lazy little shits", or "real Tuesdays".
     
  4. Mello

    Mello Hasn't left TVC for the rest of the forum True Blood

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    Thanks for the replies, nice to have a section like this in the forum.

    Firstly I'll apologise for my arrogant manner in the OP, I wasn't very emotionally er 'right' (It's when this happened) when I wrote it, and kind of left it up as a kind of self-homage.

    Anyways, excuses out the way.

    Sanai: Yup indeed I was incorrect on Milgram. They were pressured into 'killing/injuring' the learner by the experimenter (actor) by him deferring responsibility to himself and the progression of science as two examples. The fact still remains IMO that 65% of people still went past the "Danger - Extreme shock" level. Obviously I have no idea how far I would go, I personally would go all the way to 450V but purely because I fell very little empathy towards other people, including my family.

    Indeed you are right that hating society is never going to get anything done, but sadly I am very void of positive emotions, things happened in my childhood that still cloud my mind to this day, whenever I try and like humanity, memories of its lowest depths return to my mind and I can't help but feel anger.

    Darvy: I was classing "ordinary" in a similiar way to what you were. From what I see around me, not just in school, but in society, people just seem so fundamentally self-centred (Id, whatever you want to call it. I was trying to stay away from psychology jargon but nvm..), which is what I view as the root cause of everything. Whilst I accept that there is nothing we can do to change "ordinary" human nature, it still fundamentally angers me, even though I know I am myself probably more self-centred than most. I'm a hypocrite like that.. *that's partially to do with me really, I used to be really base emotions, I just wanted any form of pleasure until a year and a bit ago..

    Indeed the lazy people I just view as a more obvious form of self-centeredness in the way that they just simply don't want the slight displeasure of effort to gain everything, they want reward with no cost..

    Many thanks for completely trouncing us in an argumant xD
     
  5. Count Lasombra

    Count Lasombra Vampire Count True Blood

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    I certainly wouldn't risk my life for some random bitch in a hallway,maybe she deserved to be stabbed..who knows.I would intercede on behalf of a friend.
    There's a fine line between "hero" and "dumbass",and it depends on success.
    I am not a spokesperson for the herd,but without it there would be no basis for comparison.
    Most people follow the path of least resistance,and society rewards obedience.
    William S. Burroughs once said "Thanks for a nation of FINKS,where no-one is allowed to mind his own business."
    If the stabbing had taken place in today's world,the gawkers would have recorded it on their smart phones instead.
    "Extirminate all rational thought,that is the conclusion I have come to" xD
     
  6. Mello

    Mello Hasn't left TVC for the rest of the forum True Blood

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    Wow, Hello, Lasobra. Never met you (unless my memory's playing up again [eyes up eleanor]) and you're a bloody true blood! Nice to meet you.

    It is true though I guess. Humans are obviously always going to be flawed, nothing we can do there, I just feel there is so much we could improve if we removed "ordinary people". I feel that if everyone didn't have apathy, the world would actually function pretty well, because as apathetic as you are, you eventually realise that you need other people.
     
  7. Count Lasombra

    Count Lasombra Vampire Count True Blood

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    I rarely post these days,but I'm usually around.I have often felt the same..I call'em "FOLK" or "Biologicals" and have lamented having to deal with them,but as you pointed out.We need them.We as people need each other,if only to have someone worth hating.
    "Normal society" is the backdrop for weirdos,can't be weird in isolation..only by comparison.
    So called normal people keep things together in a very material sense,dealing with mundane life directly,allowing others to blog and wax intellectual while they till the land,chop wood and pick beans.
    I used to be a real hateful bastard.Eventually I realised that I was mad at the world for not living up to what I thought a good world should be.Once I stopped comparing the world to better version of itself that didn't actually exist,I was able to accept alot more things about it.
     
  8. Mad 'At

    Mad 'At Dumb enough to work Staff Member True Blood

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    Just for the record, that incident with the stabbed girl is due to the bystander effect. Nobody doe anything becase we think somebody else can do it. I it were only one observer he would have 100% responsibility, but with ten observers they would each have 10% responsibility.
     
  9. Mello

    Mello Hasn't left TVC for the rest of the forum True Blood

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    Piliavin kinda disproved that when he did his experiment in the subway. something like 80% of people helped a man who collapsed
     
  10. Lynks

    Lynks Lord of RAW Staff Member True Blood

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    I don't know this experiment you talk about but what was this 'collapse'? because if it was one where there was no danger to the assister, then you would have the opposite effect to an extent where you would see a bunch of people helping and feel obliged to at least see if you can do anything
     
  11. Sanai

    Sanai Stylish Deviant True Blood

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    I also question whether it is correct to blame people for how they were raised/programmed/evolved- Is it really someones fault if they are a sheep, any more than it is my fault that I am tall or Darvy's fault that he listens to terribly dated classical music?

    Free will in of itself is an illusion- our brains are complex calculators, sure each brain is different, but in the end each decision is a complex calculation with only one possible result- the result determined on the makeup of the brain, its experience/learning derived programming, and the variables presented to it. We are no more capable of making our decisions differently than a computer is capable of saying 1+1=3.
     
  12. Zephyr

    Zephyr Master Necromancer True Blood

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    Though I agree mostly with what Sanai said I am much more spiritual and also believe that man can choose to overcome his basic programming if he so wishes(or she obviously) to a certain extent. I believe that what most people rely on is their animal soul what science would call basic survival instincts.
    IMO we do have free will but it takes great effort.

    I call the masses the sheeple or mundanes as I do believe they all have potential but it is far easier to conform to herd behavior so they fall in line as that is easier.
    It isn't just the bystander effect but you can see this in all social interactions. There are very few actual leaders who take the initiative.

    I too get frustrated and angry at the world, it is so easy to do so. I have to remind myself that I am here to set an example, not judge them.
     
  13. Mello

    Mello Hasn't left TVC for the rest of the forum True Blood

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    Lynks: Piliavin did a study after said girl was stabbed, by having a man collapse on a subway and seeing how long it took for someone to help. half the time he was drunk, the other half with a walking stick, and 1/4 of the time black. If no one helped after 70s an actor would step in and help the man, then they would see if anyone joined in. Also the same at 150s. Results wise, I think it was something like 80% (can't remember for sure) helped before 70s, and 90% male, 60% white.

    I do partially agree here. Humans are extremely dependant on their younger years and it shapes them for when they grow up, heck I'm a walking example of that with Eleanor.

    So this must maybe be where I don't understand the rest of the world. For me it is really easy to go against what I have been taught, or what is the norm. I actively prefer to do it in fact, I mean I partially stopped nids just because they became more popular. When I was in nursery I quite literally sat in the corner with my hands in my ears, I've just never understood the need to be part of a social group.

    This also I must imagine will be the root of my hate for society too, I'm outside it all the time so I can see all its faults and have no idea what the benefits are.

    So while everyone here provides very correct moral arguments which I could never possibly undermine, I feel that this problem goes beyond what rationality can help it with, call me mad sure, I kind of am. I just feel desperate measures are needed. But my idea of utopia is very likely different to yours.
     
  14. Count Lasombra

    Count Lasombra Vampire Count True Blood

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    Sounds like you define yourself by being anti-social or contrarian.You need society like the Joker needs Batman.
    If you were really anti-social you would have kept playing Nids,no matter if anyone else liked them or not.
    Please describe your idea of Utopia.
     
  15. Mello

    Mello Hasn't left TVC for the rest of the forum True Blood

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    A place where everyone is apathetic, every man for himself. A surprisingly stable condition if you think about it.

    Odd you should describe me as the joker, that's one of my nicknames IRL :). I dunno I guess I enjoy discovering all that I hate in society and take pleasure in feeling superior to everything.

    I guess I'm less anti-social, more contra-social (just made it up), in that I on purposely do the opposite of what is popular, because anything that is popular I think can't be good, in my totally biggoted fashion :thumbsup:
     
  16. The Archivist

    The Archivist Archivist of the word The Staff Member True Blood

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    I understand what you mean, but I think it is far better to make sense than buck the trend.

    Utopia is a term that's banded about a lot. As far as I'm concerned there is no pinnacle, no climax to the succession.
    When I present what I consider the six essential ethics it might be more obvious why: information, innovation, core morality, drive to perfection, sense and simplication, & compromises.
    To progress, you need to keep striving to solve the problems. There may never be perfection, but you should always strive to achieve it. This, combined with all the other ethics, should keep us going.
     
  17. Mello

    Mello Hasn't left TVC for the rest of the forum True Blood

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    While those ethics are good Archi, I don't think core morality is necessary, all it does is limit human's abilities. Look how successful all the heartless people were/are in our species. It is an empowering feeling having no sympathy, you feel freed.
     
  18. The Archivist

    The Archivist Archivist of the word The Staff Member True Blood

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    Having no sympathy is not the same as having no empathy (I take the view that empathy is at the heart of morality). Also, for the species it is generally those who decided to make things better in a small way that made the entire society better.
     
  19. Mello

    Mello Hasn't left TVC for the rest of the forum True Blood

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    well yeah, sympathy stems from empathy, so I have neither most of the time really :)

    Ah, well it depends on whether you want to benefit society, or the human race.
     
  20. The Archivist

    The Archivist Archivist of the word The Staff Member True Blood

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    Ooh that's a toughy. I'd rather benefit all sentient beings, it's less likely to result in a 40k parody.
     
  21. Mello

    Mello Hasn't left TVC for the rest of the forum True Blood

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    You see I'd just keep the human race going, once we're cemented in, people can relax. Then a generation or two will have to work hard again, then the next will relax. Unfair, but perfect system
     
  22. The Archivist

    The Archivist Archivist of the word The Staff Member True Blood

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    Cemented in? Interesting concept, but unfortunately for your argument, I do geo.

    Resource Shortages:
    Water Crisis
    Energy Crisis
    Mineral Crisis
    Food Crisis
    [Land Crisis]

    Then there is the Poverty Problem & the three part-time horsemen

    We can't just shut down for a couple of decades. If we do that, the population will cause a Malthusian Crisis in almost everything. Worst case scenario is feasibly a lifeless husk for several centuries in an event more catastrophic than the KT impact.
     
  23. Mello

    Mello Hasn't left TVC for the rest of the forum True Blood

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    Well, me being me I'd just kill off the 1/7 of the population, randomly selected, itd help so much. Then I would force families to work in certain lines of work so they become good at their job, and proud of it, they'll get used to it eventually.
     
  24. The Archivist

    The Archivist Archivist of the word The Staff Member True Blood

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    No, that wouldn't work. Even setting aside the moral problems (which should invalidate this approach always: why do so many people insist upon it, joking or not?) and the problems with the caste system, you'd still end up with the same problems.
    One of the major problems is the continual ignorance about our greatest resource, human ingenuity. More than seven billion minds across the planet: every one capable of at least some contribution to the world's solutions, especially with training and practice. Yet many are stuck, unable to hear the problems, do the logic or explain the solutions, trapped by the lack of money, or education. Those who are laid off often find it hard to re-enter education, and many more remain trapped by manual labour.
    I have a bunch of solutions that I am preparing to begin implementing soon. They don't directly address problems such as hunger, or famine, but are the framework to solve such issues. I am not egocentric (much); I know that I can't think of everything, and that I probably would do a lot of damage if I was ever in power. The solution is to make humanity's minds our defining factor, by taking problems, discussing them amongst those affected, those with expertise, those with the logical knowhow to follow arguments about things they know little, and to simultaneously increase this demographic, expand the number of people able to think about a problem logically and innovatively until the entire human race is joined together in a great network of experts and engineers, technicians and theologians, academics and artists. Automation is within our grasp, population control has more easy and ethical methods to use than we think and even the less industrialised countries are beginning to adapt to today's image: eventually we will reach a state much closer to balance, where we are able to place carefully amongst the beautiful ecosystems of our planet the foundations of grace and the glorious spread of sentience.
     
  25. Count Lasombra

    Count Lasombra Vampire Count True Blood

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    @Luci-OK Hitler xD What happened to the apathy? It seems we've gone from a sort of disinterested "survival of the fittest" to oppressive Tyranny and a caste system in just a few posts.
    Are you taking a piss?
    Ack! Ninja!
    @TheArchivist-Does that make bliss our greatest resource?
     

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