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Hybrid Magic Phase

Discussion in 'The Necrarch Workshop' started by EternallyUndying, Jan 26, 2015.

  1. EternallyUndying

    EternallyUndying Black Knight

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    I've been playing a lot of Khaine magic and I find that, while it solves a lot of issues with 8th ed magic, it makes magic too dominant, and there are a lot of holes in its rules.

    Here is a new hybrid magic phase that I have really been enjoying:


    Hybrid Magic Phase


    1. SPELL GENERATION

    A wizard is allowed to pick a single spell lore as detailed in their Armybook. The wizard knows all spells from this lore.

    Some wizards automatically know certain spells. These wizards may keep the spells they know, or choose to know all the spells from a single lore of which they know at least one spell.

    A loremaster may re-roll any casting attempt from the lore in which they are Loremaster. If Loremaster in multiple lores, they are permitted to know more than one lore.

    In some cases a wizard is permitted to pick freely between multiple lores. In this case they must pick only 7 spells.

    2. ROLL FOR WINDS OF MAGIC

    2D6 + channel

    A maximum of 3 dice can be generated from any additional source per Magic Phase. This includes dice generated later in the phase, such as the result of a lore attribute.

    For example, if a lore attribute allows you to add one dice each time a spell is cast, only the first three castings would add a dice, and then the lore attribute will no longer take effect.


    The dispelling player gets a number of dispel dice equal to the highest dice when generating the Winds of magic + channeling.

    3. CAST
    Each wizard has a number of casting attempts equal to their wizard level; a level 1 wizard may attempt one spell per phase, a level 4 can attempt four spells. A failed spell is an attempt, but does not prevent using additional attempts (to cast different spells).

    A. Choosing a Target
    Different spell types have different limitations as detailed in the rulebook.

    Spell Limitations

    Any spell can only be attempted once per wizard. Any spell with a casting cost of 15+ or higher or any Remains in Play spell may only be attempted once per phase, even if multiple wizards know the spell.

    B. Choose the Number of Power Dice

    pick 1-6 dice to use. Roll the dice. If equal or over the casting value, the spell is cast.

    Boosted Spells
    Only level 3 or 4 wizards may attempt to cast a boosted version of the spell. The only exception is that of Signature Spells, as they are so basic that even the lowliest of wizards can attempt to cast them at multiple strengths.

    Not Enough Power!
    A natural roll of 1 or 2 is always a failure.

    Bound Spells
    Bound spells can be cast by any model with them. The casting value is based on the power of the spell and wizard levels are never added to the casting attempt – even if being cast by a wizard. Anyone with a bound spell may attempt it once per phase. The attempt to cast the bound spell does not count toward a wizards spell attempts.
    In the event of a miscast, no more spells can be attempted by the owner for the remainder of the phase. If granted by an item, the item is permanently destroyed, but the owner can continue casting normally, if able.

    4. Irresistible Force
    If two natural 6s are rolled during a casting attempt, the spell is cast with Irresistible Force- it is cast and cannot be dispelled for any reason. Fully resolve the spell and lore attribute.

    What happens next is a Miscast, with a power based on the number of dice used to attempt the spell:

    1-2 dice: Detonation!
    The energy explodes without warning!
    Every model in base contact (but not the wizard) suffers a strength 5 hit. Afterward, remove D3 dice from the power pool.

    3-4 dice: Dimensional Redirection
    While the wizard wrenches hold of the magical vortex around him, he loses his control, but attempts to redirect the Chaos energies from swallowing him whole.
    Center a small round template over the wizard – every model under the template suffers a strength 6 hit. Afterward, D3 dice are lost from the Power Pool.

    5-6 dice: Dimensional Cascade

    The summoned magics wrench free of the Wizard's control, laying waste to anyone unfortunate enough to be nearby, and then attempt to pull the wizard into the Realm of Chaos.
    Center a large round template over the wizard – everyone underneath suffers a strength 7 hit. Afterward, roll a D6. On a 1-3, the wizard is sucked into oblivion – remove him as a casualty without any saves allowed. On a 4-6, lose that many power dice instead.


    Hold on for dear life!

    A wizard who is in a unit of at least 5 models will be saved from the grip of Chaos if a 3 is rolled for a Dimensional Cascade. This represents the wizards comrades holding him down as chaos seeks to pull him in. In the resulting confusion, 6 dice are lost from the Power Pool

    The Power of Chaos

    A Miscast is pure chaos energy in physical form and as such - Magic Resistance of any kind has no effect on any wounds caused by a Miscast

    5. Dispel
    Nominate a wizard and roll any number of dice + wizard level to meet the power value in order to prevent the spell from being cast.

    If a wizard rolls two or more natural 6s then he can no longer dispel this phase. Nominate another wizard, or use your army to dispel at +0.
     
  2. LordTobiothan

    LordTobiothan Crypt Horror

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    The maximum of three extra dice from any source seems arbitrary and makes items lose value. That's like making the maximum strength bonus on a weapon +1 then still expecting people to buy ogre blade.
     
  3. EternallyUndying

    EternallyUndying Black Knight

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    Its the alternative to capping the dice at 12. This limits individual items from breaking the game, especially they way the do in Khaine. Your opponent can fly a DP and cast purple sun across the army turn 1, then you get to wait patiently while he carries on with 30 Power Dice. This is the kind of stuff that GW didn't account for and needs serious balancing.

    Nagash has his four dice thing, I don't think that counts here because you're carrying over existing dice. Other than than that, cheese like the herdstone, death lore attribute and sacrificial dagger are perfectly balanced providing +3 dice in a single phase, anything more than that and you're relying on an exploit to win games, and that is very disappointing to have to play against.
     
  4. LordTobiothan

    LordTobiothan Crypt Horror

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    By these rules nagash would only get to use 3 stored dice at most.

    And ways of generating dice are no more exploitative then buffing any other phase. The amount of points they pay gives a relative benefit. If dropping everything into magic is overpowered then it's the magic that needs changing, you are just band aid "fixing" it.

    Magic is always overwhelming or underwhelming because the spells do not play nicely with the base rule set. Trying to impose hard restrictions on how strong a magic phase can get just encourages people to forgo using any more then the bare minimum for the phase, which begs the question of why have it at all.
     
  5. EternallyUndying

    EternallyUndying Black Knight

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    As I said..
    Other than Nagash, what item in the game is priced so that providing more than 3 dice in a single phase is balanced?
     
  6. Malisteen

    Malisteen Vampire Count True Blood

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    homebrew rules belong in the necrarch workshop subforum. My personal reactions and suggestions to these magic rule tweaks are pretty much the same as those i made in najo's homebrew end times magic thread already there.
     
  7. Mad 'At

    Mad 'At Dumb enough to work Staff Member True Blood

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    Thread moved to The Necrarch Workshop.
     
  8. Archamedius

    Archamedius Grave Guard

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    Sacrificial Dagger is actually probably over costed for what it does.

    Even on the cheapest unit you can get as a dark elf player, you are averaging sacrificing 2 models per extra die added to a spell. That is an average of 18 points spent per power die.

    So the average cost of the item is 25 +18/power die expended, which if you average 2 castings per magic phase (low for a dark elf wizard) takes the price of the sacrificial dagger to a total cost of 241 points. That's the cost of another level 4 DE wizard. If you then consider averaging 4 additional power dice per magic phase from it, the cost skyrockets to 457 points. That's the cost of most greater demons and/or demon princes, all for an extra power die on spells being cast.


    When you consider the chance for panic, and the investment required to make the unit reliable so it doesn't get shot off the board early to str 3 shooting, and the incidental investments required to make the sacrificial dagger work properly and be reliable, I think it is over costed but still a valuable tool for dark elves. It is certainly not game breakingly cheap.
     
  9. EternallyUndying

    EternallyUndying Black Knight

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    Sorry I've never posted in this forum before. I was wondering where it should go.

    Ordinarily I try to stick to rules as written. I don't want to get caught up in what the next person thinks might be better than the last. Khaine magic finally broke my spirit - on the one hand, not picking spells and making it very hard to 6 dice is a godsend IMO. But magic completely dominating a game takes away from unit tactics. I tried to find a middle-ground where you can have the best of both worlds.

    That interesting, I've heard lots about the sacrificial dagger being terrible broken nonsense, never heard it called over-costed. I've never had the pleasure of experiencing it myself.

    This still strengthens my point; sacrificing 6 guys and getting 3 dice every phase is not that good, but nice to have in a pinch. Sacrificing more than 3 is probably overkill, even if it is an appropriate a waste of points. Do those that use the dagger really sacrifice enough to get 4+ extra dice per turn?

    My hybrid phase doesn't change much about 8th edition. It just tries to absorb the idea of not having to roll for spells, and making the danger of magic more appropriate instead of random.
     
  10. Mad 'At

    Mad 'At Dumb enough to work Staff Member True Blood

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    Don't worry about posting it in the wrong forum @EternallyUndying, we all make mistakes :)

    Sacrificial Dagger is not overcosted. The main reason to take the dagger is not to simply get more PD, the value of it is that you get get those dice when you most need them. With that item on the wizard you can cast spells with fewer dice than you normally would, and take a chance at getting it through. Normal wizards can't do this because failing a spell is so terrible, but with the dagger you can since you can always add another die if you don't reach the casting value. This benefit is very obvious when casting small spells (success on 3+), since you can attempt to cast them with 1 die without having to fear rolling 1 or 2. All in all it makes for more effect use of the PD and it even reduces the risk of miscast.
     
    The Sun King likes this.
  11. Archamedius

    Archamedius Grave Guard

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    Except that you are talking about an average points cost coming close to that of a full regiment of troops, another wizard, or possibly both. The point of the item is strong, and I am not arguing that. I am also not arguing that the item is useful. All I am saying is the point cost for the item is not a measly 25 points, but on average is much closer to the cost of a unit, which if you chose the unit instead, provides you with a solid flexible option to do other things as well. Sacrificial Dagger does not just require 25 points of Lord/Hero allotment, it requires a particular setup, a deep supporting unit, and a particular play style to make effective. That makes you predictable and a good opponent can leverage that to his advantage.

    More importantly, to the point of this thread, I feel it's ability to generate more than 3 power dice does not significantly impact the magic phase in an adverse way.
     
  12. EternallyUndying

    EternallyUndying Black Knight

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    My cap of 3 dice is a general balance. It might not be that big of a deal if someone gets 4 dice in a phase with the sacrificial dagger, but if someone makes a list with 4 wizards and a herdstone while summoning more wiz though Undeath, it will quickly get out of balance. Many items are capped at 3 already; Mannfred, Casket, Priapt etc.

    This a small clause just to make sure things don't get out of hand. It most likely will never even come into play. Obviously it will take effect during purple sun, which is an embarrassingly broken band-aid they put on the deathstar system and has been taking a big dump on my fun since I started playing. I don't cast it, and my enjoyment of the game of warhammer dies a little bit every time it is cast on me.

    There are many things I took into account when I made these hybrid rules
    - jump right into games, no rolling for spells
    - Guaranteed access to the spell you NEED, no more being screwed out by not rolling for the only spell you really needed.
    - 2D6 dice with no limit, only limit on any one source, forcing you to diversify your sources if you want more dice
    - The power of magic is more tied to the number of wizards and points you invested into magic, rather than buying one super wizard who can cast forever and exploit items.
    - Risk of magic tied to the number of dice you use. 5-6 dicing is very risky and becomes appropriately avoided unless in dire need. No more game breaking miscasts on 4 or less dice.
    - no more boosting non-sig spells except by lord-level characters. Low level wiz are appropriately weak compared to lord wizards, even when they know all spells in their lore.
     
  13. LordTobiothan

    LordTobiothan Crypt Horror

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    The only parts of that list I agree with is the "get the spell you need" and tying the strength of your magic to how many magic units you purchase. The rest of it is just a band aid because we haven't fleshed out that latter point.

    It's still overall beneficial to bring 2 models to represent an entire phase of the game, 1 level 4 and 1 level 2. Instead imagine if armies had to bring a caster or two, a casket of souls, and a heirotitan like the tomb kings do to boost magic. No one has ever complained about it when you're actually devoting parts of your army to magic instead of kit loading one god character.

    If we could change the rules in a way that armies would have to field more magic to get more magic, you wouldn't need those other arbitrary balance restrictions.
     
  14. EternallyUndying

    EternallyUndying Black Knight

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    My rules limit spellcasters similarly to 8th. More wizards and magic items will make a more powerful magic phase - unlike Khaine, where one level 4 is all you'll ever need. A level 4 can only make 4 attempts, so your magic is limited. My limit on dice generation promotes varied options as well. Mannfred and a Casket can generate 6 extra dice, where alone they could only generate up to 3 each (also thats the rules as written). Rules are only arbitrary until they are not .. such as when some stupid source gives endless free dice and GW wasn't smart enough to say .. maybe we should limit this from getting out of hand (such as Purple Sun).

    Also, in 8th you get the spell you need, most of the time. If you want The Withering you'll get it - after prolonging the start of the game by rolling and noting the spells you want to bring. This is the worst part of the magic phase. Many take this time to learn up on the new lore they are taking or pine over which choice is going to be the best. I've seen this take ungodly amounts of time to resolve. Then there's that every few times that you dont roll for the spell you need. Many times this ruins the game for me before it starts. Imagine if you couldn't pick Nehek and you randomly didn't roll it and had to start a game without the ability to raise your troops back - I've had games where I felt this way because the spell i built my list around just didn't come up. Not rolling for The withering in your shooty list, not rolling for Banishment in your light council .. the list goes on. This is not an error or flaw of the player - in most games you will get that spell - but ever once in a while, just because the dice gods felt like cursing you that day, you have to play with a chip on your shoulder and try to make the most out of a game that will most likely totally suck for you.

    Games should suck because your opponent out witted and out battled you on the table, not because the rules screwed you. Nobody likes to play a game that sucks. Warhammer sucks when you're playing against legions of chaos with Khaine magic and they have 5 wizards and a herdstone and attempt purple sun every turn. Warhammer sucks when you start your first magic phase and roll double 6s on two dice and blow up an entire unit and lose your wizard and general. Warhammer sucks when you need a spell to have a chance against your opponents list and you just dont roll for it and as such you get obviously steamrolled. Warhammer does not have to suck - they can write the rules to punish you for taking risks, not for simply playing the game.

    Here's just one of a lot of examples: in battle a lot can happen. When one unit charges another, they can fall short, get disorganized, etc. In the game of warhammer you can roll double 1s for a charge, which basically represents taking one step and the entire unit falling flat on their face. In human history, has any military unit be so untrained, and so out of control of their own legs that they fell on their face after taking one step? Most likely not. But in the world of warhammer, the ground under their feet can mysteriously turn to ice and they can fail engaging a unit that is 7 feet in front of them.Jsut becasue it dosen't happen often, doesn't mean its not illogically idiotic when it does.

    My rules clean up all that type of nonsense and allow you to play a magic phase without any otherworldly idiotic nonsense happening to you for no reason whatsoever. Regardless, I am not GW. Despite the intelligence of anyone posting better rules, the point is moot. We have to play with their rules as written. My suggestion of better rules only opened up a can of worms for everyone else the think they can write their own version of the rules. Sadly this is the state of warhammer - every tournament being controlled by the house rules of whoever puts on the tournament.

    I will go back to suggesting 8th magic and getting overruled due to Khaine rules. My games will be dominated by imaginary magic, taking away from the models we spent (alot of) real money and (a lot of) real time on. My only hope is that 9th isn't so littered with bad band-aids for crappy rules and actually provides a balanced set of playable rules where wins are determined by skill as a general and not the random whim of the dice gods (or the broken rules of overpowered units).
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2015
  15. The Sun King

    The Sun King Imperator Staff Member True Blood

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    Your rules seem balanced enough, im wondering, though, why not random spell generation?
     
  16. LordTobiothan

    LordTobiothan Crypt Horror

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    The better question is. Why random spell generation?
     
  17. The Sun King

    The Sun King Imperator Staff Member True Blood

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    Random spell generation requires a strageic mind and a dynamic approach whereas non-random generation makes the same cookie-cutter spells dominate the games.
     

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