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Legions of Nagash

Discussion in 'Understanding the Underworlds' started by El Syf, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. El Syf

    El Syf Crypt Horror

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    Similar situation, although there are apparently a multitude of artefacts and we got two spell lores which is something we desperately needed.
    Was rather hoping for points reductions on morghasts and vlozd, rounding down to the nearest hundred in each respect. This would have enabled you to take 4 morghasts or the vlozd as allies in 2000 point games. Patiently wait for the post tomorrow I guess.
     
  2. Malisteen

    Malisteen Master Necromancer True Blood

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    Honestly, Morghasts look pretty good already, I'm not sure a points drop is warranted there. The main things that I would have liked to see that we didn't get were:

    - Points drop for wight kings to 100
    - Points drop for blood knights to 200, 220 at the most
    - Spells to debuff armor saves & rend
    - backwards & forwards compatibility for Legion lists (right now you can't field mointed necromancer, vamp on abyssal terror, shadespire skeletons or mournghul in legion lists, and any future releases eould also be inaccessible if they don't come with special permissions)
    - increased special character durability, whether through battalions or just improved profiles. Nagash got this, but the Mortarchs did not, and as a result they're just a little too squishy for me to feel comfortable running them as generals.
    - more battalions not tied to special characters. For instance, right now there are still no ghost or zombie formations, no bat formations, etc.
    - i really like gravesites & the summonable system thematically, but I wish the designers had pushed it farther. What about abilities to create or move gravesites? Or destroy one for some fancy effect? Or move between them like a gate? What about allegiance abilities to make different units summonable? Or an ability to 'summon' a summonable unit from one part of the board to another (perhaps via gravesites)? Or maybe alternative gravesite buffs for summonable units besides healing?

    Why does every legion have the same largely unusable simmonable/gravesite comnand ability, when they each could have had a unique (and usable) command ability instead?

    Like:

    Grand host - Legions innumerable. Choose a gravesite within 9" of your general, and one summonable unit from your army that has been completely destroyed. You may set up a single model from the chosen unit anywhere within 9" of the gravesite and more than 9" from any enemy models. Doing so does not cost reserve points. The unit may be restored further, up to its original starting size, by deathly invocations or similar effects. At the end of your hero phase, remove the chosen gravesite.

    Legion of Sacrament - Gravesight. When your general uses this command ability, choose any gravesite. Measure spell range and line of sight for any spell your general casts from that gravesite until the end of your hero phase. Enemy wizards may attempt to unbind those spells if they are within range of either your general or the chosen gravesite.

    Legion of Night - Necrotic Bomb. Choose a gravesight within 18" of your general. Restore d3 wounds to every death unit within 6" of the gravesite. Every enemy unit within 6" of the gravesite suffers d3 mortal wounds. At the end of your hero phase, remove the gravesite.

    Legion of Blood - Blood Calls to Blood. Until the start of your next hero phase, blood knight and vargheist units within 12" of your general gain the 'summonable' keyword.
     
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  3. Irisado

    Irisado Ancient Vampire Lord Staff Member True Blood

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    The issue I still have with Age of Sigmar, which this book seems only to exacerbate rather than ameliorate, is the confusing nature of the different factions and how I can use my old Vampire Counts army as an Age of Sigmar army. So far as I understand it, Soulblight is Vampires, Nighthaunt are ethereal undead units, Flesh Eaters are Ghoul units, Skeletons and the like are Death Rattle units, and the rest are the new factions introduced by this book. Is this more or less correct?

    As someone who is still trying really hard to get into this game, I find all these factions more of a hindrance than a help. I don't understand why there could not have been three factions for the undead, Vampires, Nagash, and Tomb Kings. Surely this would have been easier?

    I agree that some of the new content is disappointing, but I think that at least from a narrative perspective there is now more depth to the army as a result of the changes that have been made. This was desperately needed in my opinion. While there is still a long way to go to convince me that Age of Sigmar is equal to, let along an improvement on, Warhammer in terms of the lore, at least the information that I have seen so far looks promising.

    Gameplay is potentially more problematic. I share some of the concerns about character sniping. My very limited experience of playing my Vampire Counts army just using the warscrolls and rules from the website highlighted to me how vulnerable undead character models are now that joining units is no longer a thing. My friend's daemons annihilated my army, especially the characters, as though they were made of paper.
     
  4. Alabaster427

    Alabaster427 Minister of Thriftiness True Blood

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    I got the book today, but there was a tournament, so I didn't have much opportunity to look it over beforehand. However, I did get tabled in the second round in like 45 minutes, so I had some time then to look at the new book. First impression is overall positive. The new spells are amazing, especially in the lore of necromancy. One of the spells reduces enemy attacks and removes a charge dice! That's huge. Another is an answer to the Knight Heraldor and Auric Runemaster. A spell that targets terrain and every unit within so many inches is half movement. My favorite from the lore of vampires is Soulpike, which targets an enemy unit and when they charge, you roll a D6 for every inch of their charge result and on a 5+, deal a mortal wound. This is a great counter to prosecutors and "deep strike" units. I like some of the new Battalions as well. Expect to see a lot of First Cohort lists, which makes Nagash really hard to kill. Nagash also gets more spells, which is awesome. I hated him being able to cast 8 spells, but only knowing 4-6. The morghasts being able to choose between weapons regardless of which ones you choose is nice.

    I dislike that everything can only ally with FEC. Why even make Nighthaunt a faction if it can't ally with anyone? I also dislike the variety within the new battalions. The biggest complaint I have is about the gravesites. You don't use a token or even a model to represent the gravesites; you use a point, an imaginary POINT on the board that counts for nothing else. GW missed a big opportunity here. Prince Vordrai spell is nice, but he seems overpriced and generally not that good as a general. He's also not a vampire lord. The morghasts got TKed in that they lost abilities but are the same price. TG and ZD are cheaper but also can't be summoned any more and don't count as FEC. However, it seems that if you are running Death grand alliance, you could still opt for the FEC versions to gain the keywords, but for 20 points extra. The new ethereal has already been covered by several people, so that's that. The wight king losing his banner without getting any cheaper is also super lame.

    Neutral: The zombies got slightly nerfed in that they now get +1 to hit/wound for every 20 models with a cap at 40. So now they can only get up to 3+/4+ with the corpse cart rather than a 2+/3+.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  5. Malisteen

    Malisteen Master Necromancer True Blood

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    Zombies also lost mob up rule.

    Pronce Voldemort isnt great as your general outside of double dragon gimmick lists, but he's solid as a non-general monster, with better offensive stats and a good spell for a few points extra. Artefacts still probably make the generic better, but Voldi's not bad, imo.

    First cohort looks pretty scary. Ive heard good thing about the following 2k list:

    First cohort
    Nagash
    2 archai
    40 skeletons
    2x10 skeletons
    Necromancer with gravesand timeglass
    6 spirit hosts
    1970 total

    Morghasts reduce enemy leadership. And gain +1 attack in grand host. And harbingers can take the halberds now. Morghasts are great, no room to complain there, imo.

    Necro lore is great. Vamp lore less so, but still has some gems.

    All in all, im leaning more towards being happy with the book, thpugh im still sad about how squishy the mortarchs are.
     
  6. Alabaster427

    Alabaster427 Minister of Thriftiness True Blood

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    I am thinking to run Prince Vhordrai with Ghoul King on TG ally for his spell. Two pile-ins on that would be awesome.

    The list I'm looking at for First Cohort:
    Nagash
    Spells: Amaranthine Orb, Decrepify, Fading Vigour
    2 Archai, halberds
    40 Skeletons, sword/board
    2x20 skeletons, sword/board
    Necromancer
    -Ossific Diadem
    -Spell: Overwhelming Dread
    Balewind Vortex (give Overwhelming Dread or Vanhels 36" range). Downside is losing the 4+ save for the necromancer

    1990 points.
    Alternatively, drop the vortex for another necromancer with gravesand timeglass and Soul Harvest at 2,000 points
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  7. Eyeless

    Eyeless Wight King

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    Don't forget that once you dismiss the vortex you'll need another 100 pts to summon it again. And if you really need you'll still have nagash to cast it. I'd go with a 2nd necromancer in general, unless you'll be playing against a list with 0 shooting and you know upfront.
     
  8. Alabaster427

    Alabaster427 Minister of Thriftiness True Blood

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    Yeah. I'm thinking the two necromancers is the better option. I was just thinking to give those minuses from far off and it's one less drop. The vortex is really good against Death and Destruction and most Order and some Chaos. It's really weak against Kharadron, skyfires, just about any dwarves.
     
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  9. Alabaster427

    Alabaster427 Minister of Thriftiness True Blood

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    The Castellans of Crimson Keep battalion can't reasonably be used in a Legion of Blood list as it costs 1350 points minimum and would still require 3 battlelines. It can only feasibly be used in Soulblight. Either way, the cost of the blood knights is just too high to justify running three units.

    The Legion of Blood looks like the best allegiance overall with the Grand Host being second, using Nagash, followed by Legion of Night, then Sacrament. The built in traits for Blood, command traits, and artefacts all seem really solid and go well together. Legion of Blood may not have the most diversity, but the stacks can easily get OP.

    Nasty combos for Legion of Blood:
    -Swift Strikes, Ring of Dominion, Favoured Retainers; can be compounded with A Fine Vintage and spells
    -Walking Death, Ring of Dominion, Favoured Retainers; can be compounded with A Fine Vintage and spells
    -Soul-crushing Contempt with Immoral Majesty; can be compounded with banners and morghasts.

    Nasty Combos for Legion of Night:
    Chiropteric Cloak with various spells
    Vial of Pure Blood with either Unholy Impetus or Merciless Hunter
    Shard of Night with various spells
    Not a a combo, but The Bait is just a really great ability.

    Nasty combos for Sacrament:
    Mastery of Death with Deathmarch Battalion
    Bound to the Master with Balewind Vortex
    Shroud of Darkness with various spells.
    Spiritcage with A Fine Vintage
    Black Gem on Coven Throne
     
  10. Unas the slayer

    Unas the slayer Wight King

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    I would gladly pay their price, if only they were summonable...
     
  11. Alabaster427

    Alabaster427 Minister of Thriftiness True Blood

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    Making them summonable is a huge buff and would make them worth their current points value.
     
  12. Malisteen

    Malisteen Master Necromancer True Blood

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    what, for blood knights? Yeah, I get the thematic reason they aren't summonable, but it is a big nerf to them, after multiple other such nerfs, and they really don't belong at their current price point.

    For morghasts? Thematically, I suppose they could have been, but that probably would have been too strong. Again, they're already arguably the book's best hammer as it is, and not too squishy even at their high price.

    Now, I greatly would have preferred to see archai get a bodyguard rule by default, and then gain the summonable keyword as part of nagash's formation, but regardless I think morghasts are ok as is.

    But admittedly I could be entirely wrong about this. I met a dedicated skryre shooty list for the first time today, and I honestly can't imagine what I could possibly have done or taken out of our entire battletome that would have given me a chance against it, morghasts included.
     
  13. Alabaster427

    Alabaster427 Minister of Thriftiness True Blood

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    Who is this in response to? I'm guessing @Unas the slayer

    There are only 4 things that you can reasonably do against the warpfire walls. Maybe someone else has a better idea? Listed in order from least to most effective.

    1. hope for bad dice rolls. This manifests itself in rats being pulled as soon as they come in and rolling a bunch of 1-2s on those auto-hit 2D3 mortal wounds.

    2. go first. The only way to do this is have a one-drop list and even that's 50/50. Some might argue that going first is worse because of the potential double turn, and they're probably right, but it would at least allow you a chance to get your buffs up first and maybe move some things around to get a better position.

    3. Deployment. Some deployment zones make it hard and some scenarios make it really tempting to not do this, but bubble wrap is key. Deploy the stuff you don't want remove in the table corner, about 38mm away from the two edges, or up against the edges if need be. Then try to put your chaff/tarpits staggered as much as they can be (i.e. 1" apart) not leaving any room for enemies to pop up between them and your important stuff (generals, casters, etc.). Try to put them 8.5" out from your important stuff to keep the rats out of range.

    4. Flip the table. Don't worry about bad sportsmanship; the skaven player started it and it probably won't be the first time they've experienced this reaction.
     
  14. Unas the slayer

    Unas the slayer Wight King

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    Lol... i was reading this from mobile without spectacles, and i was thinking "what the hell is Alabaster saying?!?"
    because i misread this:
    reading "skyfire" instead of "skryre" xD


    Now, back on serious issues.
    My first try at a list with the new battletome, I'm going at 1500 pts. (I've got the italian version of the book, I'll try to quote the exact english term for abilities)

    Grand Host of Nagash Allegiance
    Deathmarch battalion (70 pts)

    Leaders:
    Vampire Lord (general, lord of nagashizzar, ossific diadem)
    Necromancer
    Wight king w tomb blade

    Deathmarch units:
    1 x 20 Grave guards
    2 x 20 Sk. warriors
    1 x 10 sk. warriors
    1 x 5 black knights

    still 220 pts to spend;
    leaving aside black k., i've got a very low move (even if the additional 4" of deathmarch help), so I would add, to threaten objectives or enemy's light, fast units:

    1 x 5 dire wolves
    1 x 5 hexwraiths


    There, 3 fast units and a big block of infantries (a pity the 2 groups of skellies are made by only 20 models)

    leaving aside heroes, ALL these units are summonable, so i should be able to exploit the 7d3 wounds granted by deathly invocation PLUS Legions Innumerable of the Grand Host, plus all the gravesites and the raise granted by Deathmarch (only for the battalion).
    Combined with the double ward save 6+ for the Deathless minion and the ossific diadem, should give me the edge tnx to combat attrition.

    The lord of nagashizzar and the command ability of the Lord will turn my deathrattle units into melee killing machines.


    Thoughts?
     
  15. Alabaster427

    Alabaster427 Minister of Thriftiness True Blood

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    With that 220 points, maybe drop 5 grave guard and take a terrorgheist? Or you can upgrade the vampire to a vampire lord on zombie dragon
     
  16. Unas the slayer

    Unas the slayer Wight King

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    Not a bad option... i would lose a couple of summonable units but a terrorgheist is not to be taken lightly.
    I think i will use this
     
  17. Alabaster427

    Alabaster427 Minister of Thriftiness True Blood

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    For the price of a terrorgheist, you can upgrade the vamp lord to be on a zombie dragon, which I think is better. Don't forget that you also get an extra artefact for taking the battalion. All of the are good, but I would the Ossific Diadem on the necromancer and then take the Timeglass, Amethyst Shard, or Terrorgheist Mantle on the Vampire Lord.
     
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  18. Unas the slayer

    Unas the slayer Wight King

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    We have a tournament incoming, and I have the model of the terrorgheist but not the VL on ZD, so I couldn't field it.
    IN friendly games there would be no problem, but not in tournament.

    I will probably pick the timeglass
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  19. Alabaster427

    Alabaster427 Minister of Thriftiness True Blood

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    In that case, put the diadem on the wight king and the time glass on the necromancer.
     
  20. Unas the slayer

    Unas the slayer Wight King

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    Tnx, i was thinking the same.
    Hopefully i'll do some batrep
     
  21. Malisteen

    Malisteen Master Necromancer True Blood

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    [​IMG]
    Painted the knight of shrouds. This is actually the first and only model ive fully painted in the scheme i started working on back in the end times.
     
  22. Alabaster427

    Alabaster427 Minister of Thriftiness True Blood

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    Are you using this model in the contest? They can duke it out with each other. Which Knight is shroudier?
     
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  23. Malisteen

    Malisteen Master Necromancer True Blood

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    Contest?
     
  24. Borgnine

    Borgnine Moderator Staff Member True Blood

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    The painting contest, one you can find HERE. Anything goes this time. @Alabaster427 already entered :)
     
  25. El Syf

    El Syf Crypt Horror

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    Played against my brothers sylvaneth iron bark on the weekend, took Prince Vhordrai and have to say I was pretty impressed with him, didn't get his signature spell off once but breath of shyish is really nasty. I'm planning on fielding the model as a normal vlozd next to compare. Grave sites didn't really help too much as my non summonable units took most of the damage, legion of sacrament and grand host of Nagash still seem the best options from my standpoint. Magic actually being effective was nice :)
     

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