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LoN: Theme and Direction of the Legion

Discussion in 'The Legion of Nagash' started by Disciple of Nagash, Dec 29, 2012.

  1. Disciple of Nagash

    Disciple of Nagash The Perverted One Staff Member TVC II GM

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    I have go to admit, I am tentative about opening this thread.

    However I cannot deny the level of input Uziel has had, and so as per his request I have opened this thread to discuss what "type" of army the LoN is.

    The idea behind this discussion is to get an overall theme of that the LoN is, so the units and their fluff can be made to fit.

    So for a start, here are the main thoughts:

    • Superior Necromancy. Not necessarily more offensive, but more the fact that the resurrection and "quality" of the dead risen by necromancy directly taught by Nagash is more potent. The version known elsewhere in the Old World is watered down as the teachings have been misinterpreted etc throughout the ages.
    • Living and dead combined. The main factor that makes the LoN unique. Nagash is venerated as a god by a cult, and this has been purposely grown to subvert his enemies and assist in locating his claw and crown. Whilst the dead are the majority of his forces, there are still a good number of living amongst them.
    • Manipulation. Nagash is not an vampire controlled by bloodlust. He plays the long game now, using millennia of knowledge to manipulate and tactically use his forces.

    The new army wide rules help reflect this, and the new core units by Uziel also help reflect the tactical options.

    Thoughts?......*looks at Uziel* xD
     
  2. The Dread King

    The Dread King Moderator Staff Member True Blood TVC II GM

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    I thought there could be a campaign based around the Legion; a surge of effort by Nagash to try to regain his full power. I also think that the Legion should explore the weird and wonderful and push the limits that were set out in the VC armybook; after all, he experiments a lot, and this should be shown in some really strange, terrifying creatures he has in his army. Examples of this are the flesh golem, the souleater and the zombie squig (that's actually the name of a website!)
     
  3. Uziel

    Uziel Vargheist

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    First off, greetings from the sands of egypt, merry X-mas and a soon to be happy new year (presumably) to everyone. :) I didn't expect to have free, cabled internet here, but here I am...

    DoN:

    Regarding your points on the Legion, I agree with all of them, and I think these are all vital to get across to give the LoN the right "feel" and tactical options on the battlefield, as well as to distinguish it somewhat from the VC and TK army lists. Ultimately getting the cunning and ruthlessness of Nagash and or his Dark Lords across is also quite important. This is after all, what made Nagash as dangerous and infamous as he was.

    There are however, some issues that I think needs clarification, and a certain amount of work, to bring the whole project together.

    I have always assumed that what we are making, is not as much a historical LoN army, but a present day one (year 2522-ish), especially considering the mortal element of the force. I think we need to get the answer to a lot of questions on the table, and we need them to make a certain amount of sense, as well as fit with the plans of the most evil and callous being ever walking the Old World. Some questions that needs answering are:

    -Has nagash risen, or is he on the verge of rising, as is implied in the VC and TK books? I don't have the army books at hand right now, but I recall something about Arkhan gathering certain artifacts etc. This most certainly must have a purpose. Personally, I'm a fan of Nagash as just an influence for the army (so far) for many a reason, but that is a discussion in which I know there are a lot of opinions. Whatever we choose to do, I think it is important that we don't undermine the fluff/rules from the VC and TK books, as writing one army book at the expense of another is not an ideal option.

    -Who are his present day Dark Lords? Why do they work for Nagsash? Do they work Willingly or not? Have they remained constant since the last death of nagash? What are their own ambitions?
    Personally, I favor the idea that Arkhan has once again started to create "Immortals" with the help of the infamous Elixir of Life (which he does have the recipe for in the fluff btw, so it would be somewhat strange if he refused to use it to further nagash's ultimate amitions), and are working on behalf of Nagash's mental commands to properly resurrect him once again, and to have an army ready for him once this is done. This seems to me to be the most sensible and likely angle on things, but again others may disagree. We need to establish a commong ground on this in any case.

    -What is happening in Nagashizzar itself btw, and who has effectively been running it the last few centuries?
    I'm assuming that the mines are once again active, that the skaven has been kept to the lowest depts, etc, and that the cult itself is somehow run from here. I think we need to get on paper some fluff that brings this forth. If Nagash's Legions shall once again walk the earth, then this would require a lot of preperation etc, preferably in secret, as the forces of light have after the storm of chaos become much more united etc (even though Mannfred and Kemmler has worked to undermine this).

    -How much do we base on the old Undead army book, and how much do we base on all the more recent and detailed fluff (ranging from the Nagash Triology, to the Sigmar Triology as well as the Neferata book)?
    Personally, I'm very much in favor of using the newer, much more detailed and richer fluff from the latter, and leaving the more vague and now often contradicting fluff of the old Undead book on the shelf as it were. It was a great book in its day, but the world of warhammer has evolved quite a bit since its release, and in my opinion, gotten much more interesting as well. It is very hard to use both in any case, due to so many contradictions popping up.

    -Also, although not vital, I think it is a huge bonus if we can find suitable models for the units and so on for the LoN army, even if we have to make some small conversions. It is not a must, but a boon most certaonly...

    In any case, these have been some of my major concerns while attempting to contribute to this project, working along others (admittedly I can find this process somewhat of a challenge from time to time) with the same interest.

    Btw DoN, could you summarize all the LoN army rules when you have the time? I think we fleshed out the rest the last time, but I still think we only have about half the army special rules written down properly.
    Perhaps we should have one post, where we put everything that was finished?
    Also, I remember thinking something about the locust special rule, that it could apply to models, and not just characters. It would give us more options throughout the list.

    D.K:

    I agree with you regarding the campaign idea. Nagash rising again for the 3'rd time, certainly merits a campaign. Also, it would help make the project much more interesting to people presently not that interested in the LoN project. They might not be all that interested in the creation stage, but it will most likely help "sell" the project once completed. Who wouldn't want to play that campaign after all?

    Regarding nagash's creativity however, there are some problems. Yes, he has "created" a lot of various undead, but we have to remember that a lot of theese were somewhat careless experiments (the yaghur/ghouls), and some came about as an somewhat unforseen effect (such as nagash's immortals due to the Elixir of Life), while others that are too often credited to nagash (such as vampires), were not his creation as such. There are examples of nagash creating a few "units" deliberatly though, such as the scarabee-like bone contructs he used to fight the skaven in the mines of the cursed pit etc, but theese are not as common as one first thinks.

    Most importantly however, is the fact that regardless of whether we choose to have a "living" present day nagas or not, he will still have been dormant for a very, very long time, and not have had the time, nor resources to do much himself in the way of experimenting... This is one of the many reasons why I think we need to focus more on his Dark Lords, and to make them the will and backbone of this army, not nagash himself... Nagash has led his armies personally before, and in an even weaker state, vs. stronger nations than "back in the day", he should realize that keeping in the background is a much better idea for his long term plans, even if we go for the "living" nagash.
     
  4. Uziel

    Uziel Vargheist

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    Part II:

    The GF has gotten sick her in egypt, so it seems I have some time on my hands that was not planned for, so I thought I'd try to elaborate a little more on what I have talked on before, on the purely tactical aspect of the army as a whole (particularly in light of the preexisting VC/TK armies).

    First off, I think it important that while all these armies are undead, there is little reason to make a whole new army list if they all become too similar tactically. If not, we might as well just make a modified VC or TK list and be done with it after all.

    So, basically we are dealing with strengths vs weaknesses here, something which any good fantasy army should have both of in abundance in some form or another.
    So far, I've seen a tendency to focus a lot on the strengths, but not so much on the weaknesses (even though we have placed us somewhere in the middle of the TK/VC army books as far as army special rules go now that we have finished that part). Pretty happy with the balance we achieved there btw.
    Still, that leaves other, non--army special strenghts and weaknesses to be decided upon. Some of which we will have to discuss and come to terms on, are:

    1. The power of our Spells/spell Lore/magic support etc:

    I think that in this case, we all agree that beyond average makes sense, but how do we implement it and still make it different from the VC/TK lists?
    We have already implemented some of it, by making Channeling easier within the BSB range. How about taking it a bit further, by making the aspect of Channeling itself an area in which we excel? No other army has much focus on this aspect, which is something that I like.
    Some of the ideas I have browsed on so far, have been:

    -make the mortal element of the force able to help with channeling.

    -make necromancy somewhat "safer" to cast, especially for the general, so that we can cast it with impunity if you will..

    -to make a "special rule" which states that all dead infantry/cavalry models on both sides to be counted up as play progresses (or maybe just the enemy dead and the dead of our own mortal units), and that we don't have simple to cast IoN type spell (or perhaps one that can only be used on the "skeletal" element of our forces), but instead have a truly game changing summoning type spell that if we can time it correctly, will have a huge impact on the game, allowing us to raise a large number of more dangerous zombies than what is to be found in the VC book. This also balances out the more dangerous zombies in combination with an easy to cast, frequent flyer type spell, which I think is essential both to distinguish us from the VC list, as well as to keep things balanced.
    I think it was DoN who mentioned somewhere that we could roll a dice for each dead model in the "dead pool", and on a roll of 4+ that model would rise as a "revenant".. I really like this idea, especially as it removes any need for a spell range as it were, and that it leaves room for adjustments, as well as possible improvements due to magic items, more powerful casters, etc...

    2. The army's overall Melee ability:

    This is where I personally tend to disagree with most of you here, ranging from D.K's wish for more chaos warrior type undead units, to the existence of the Zenith Lord, the extreme executioner special character, etc. You have heard this all before however, so I won't go into details on this again.

    My view on this however, stems from the idea that apart from the vampires, the undead have never had any astonishing warriors, and have always been, and should continue to be a grinding type melee army, and not one which often wins due to a huge difference in CR on one turn. I see this as the VC army's prerogative, not the LoN list. I think our strengths should lie in cunning, ruthlessness, underhanded tricks/tactics, etc, as that is how Nagash himself fought his wars.

    This is the main reason I wan't to see the Zenith Lord removed from the list (apart from the fact that he comes off as a bit of a super charged Wight Lord, while also undermining the TK Tomb King and the existing Wight Lord a bit, not to mention the oddity of a not fully sentient being leading an army that he can't possibly have raised himself (and remeber, there is no hierophant requirement in this list either)),is that removing him, will leave us with a little bit of a disadvantage in the character melee department, i.e a weakness we have to work around to win.

    What's the point of cunning and ruthlessness, if you don't really need it after all?? Besides, melee combat monster type characters cost a lot of points, as do high lvl spell casters, and if we go for both, that will leave precious little in the form of a "Legion" on the march...

    That said though, I think if we sacrificed our better melee characters, we can in good conscience field troops that are slightly better than what we see in the TK list, to even things out.

    3. Ranged ability:

    This is a little difficult. One one hand, we have the VC list, with only short ranged screams, and on the other, the TK list with lots of bows, dangerous catapults etc.
    I think, that we can do well to limit our long range capabilities, and instead focus on the medium range (javelins, naptha-jars, maybe roman style smaller type ballistas, maybe something mounted on monsters etc?) I quite like the more non-exotic and ancient type weaponry here, a sit fits Tactically, this seperates us from both the exisring lists, and it is also in keeping with the ancient legions type army that would hail from nagashizzar.

    It is hard to say if it will be considered to be an advantage or disadvantage overall, but I'd call it a conditional advantage/disadvantage. Missile weapons should certainly not be something we're great at, but at medium range, we can certainly do a little damage, and also use it tactically to counter the tactics of other armies.

    4. Psychology:

    This is an area in which we will be pretty superb, unless we field an all mortal force that is. With lots of fear and terror causing units, and basically a whole army immune to psychology, there is really not that much need to say more.. This is a huge advantage offcourse, although not to such a degree as in earlier editions of the game..

    5. Tactical flexibility:

    This is a bit early to say, as we do have some unit slots to fill and so on, but I think with the legions, auxiliary units, the mix of mortal and undead units, we will be a whole lot more flexible tactically than the existing undead armies. This can prove to become our major strength, apart from superior magic.

    6: Fancy Wargear:

    This is one of those areas where I think overall that it would be natural for a predominantly bronze-age type army to suffer a bit. We shouldn't eclipse the "later" undead armies, apart from perhaps a very limited number of elite type units that have for some reason received an "upgrade" from the forges of nagashizzar. With an army the size of those typically led by nagash, any meaningful upgrade in weaponry would require an insurmountable expenditure of resources, bordering on the insane. why bother, if you can just raise a fallen soldier again after all?
    I think this is an area of which we should have a small weakness overall, for the above reasons.

    7. The Movement Phase:

    This is traditionally an area in which the undead armies suffer, but that is a built in weakness to counter the benefits of being unbreakable and so on. We will probably never be what one could call a swift moving army, and neither should we be, but one advantage that we do have over the other undead armies, is that we have some flexibility due to both how the legions themselves operate along with their auxiliaries, as well as possible mortal scouting element that can have the option of fleeing and so on. Since most of our mortals will be in range of the general etc, they will be immune to psychology, and can thus not elect to flee as a charge response.

    Overall, we will offcourse have a weakness in the movement phase compared to most armies, but not so much when compared to the existing undead armies. At least, we will have a pretty secure way of countering the non marching on our important units, and possibly spells etc to help any stragglers along, we will not be at such a risk as the VC army for if randomly deployed, etc..

    Overall, while I think we have a weakness in the movement phase if we ignore the fact that we have unreakable, have fear and so on to compensate, we certainly don't suffer like the TK army, and while we might not be quicker than the VC army, we will certainly be more reliable and be more flexible.

    If I ignore the benefits of being undead element, I'd rate the army as having a disadvantage in the movement phase overall (but this also depends on how the spells will work, and what upcomming units we will see etc).

    I think I have to call it a night. Getting sleepy here. In any case, does it seem like it makes sense to go down this path with the army, or do we take it in another direction entirely? Any comments or suggestions? My overall points it that the army list needs to have a built-in balance, as well as fit the frame of the established fluff of the warhammer world etc...

    :boring::boring::boring::boring::boring:
     
  5. The Dread King

    The Dread King Moderator Staff Member True Blood TVC II GM

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    I believe much of the effort behind the creation of the original Legion was from inspiration from the TVC. It is a good idea to pay some respect to those who made it by incorporating some of the units seen in the TVC. Also, a lot of the fluff behind the Legion comes from the special characters, seeing as the nine/five/twelve (accounts vary, but modern ones usually say that there are nine) dark lords of Nagash and the Great Necromancer himself are really the driving force behind the army; if they were not included, one might as well make a VC list and say "it is the Legion of Nagash" because it has undead that Nagash might use in his armies. There are a few other special chars as well in the Legion. While special characters are odious in the eyes of many tacticians, they are fun to create, and those who love the fluff behind Nagash (the fluff is much of what prompts the Legion to be created) find huge pleasure in them.

    The Executioner is a powerful vamp lord, so it makes sense for him to be good in combat.
     
  6. Uziel

    Uziel Vargheist

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    Not having been involved with the TVC, and only having browsed the thread for a bit, I realize that much of it seems very well written, but much of it seems completely at odds with the more recent "official" warhammer lore...
    The problem with it essentially, is if the army is to be based on the TVC material, then no new members will have any input, and only DoN and possibly Bishop seems to contribute from those that originally had something to do with the TVC.
    I was worried that having two different sources would be a problem, but I didn't even realize that I'd have to consider a 3'rd, non-GW source as well (besides the inspiration from the old undead book vs the recent army books/nagash triology/sigmar triology/neferata novel), and at least not pay homage to people for something which I personally don't consider having contributed to the LoN list directly.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm certain that the TVC was great fun for the people involved and at the time, no harm was done inventing ones own nagash-based stories, but In the end, it is made up material, at odds with all that is official, and frankly an un-neccessary 3'rd source of material to base an army upon. What are you going to tell a possible opponent who has read all the official nagash material before playing him? That it is all based on a totally unofficial (and often contradictory) storyline instead, just so we can bring a host of special characters along???
    It is hard enough to present a well made unofficial list and get some acceptance for it (so that you might actually get to use it, which I assume is the idea we are aiming for), without having to drop an alternate tome of stories in an opponents lap, point and tell him that that "justifies" everything.

    The official number of Dark Lords are nine as far as I know. No more. No less. You can perfectly well make an army list without nagash himself actually in it as well. His influence carries far beyond having to be physically present himself.

    As far as special characters go, I think they are quite fun to make as well. No doubt about it.
    This does not mean that I think it is a good idea to make nine dark lords special characters however, as they have been pretty vague (krell and arkhan being the two most constant) as a group overall officially.
    I sort of get the feeling that many at first got involved with the LoN project to have their own creation get rules etc, and then fell of the wagon once this exiting part was done, leaving a few to do most of the hard work on the project itself (DoN, Bishop, etc).
    I don't mind people finding huge pleasure in their own creatins as far as special characters go, and the stories that go with them etc. I just think that it is a huge mistake to make a whole army based on this, especially now in 8th ed, since most of those contributors don't bother one way or another anyway. If you wish to play a game using your home-made special character, I'm pretty sure most of us can persuade a buddy to let him be used in a TK/VC list after all...

    I'm saying that an ARMY list, has to be about the overall army first and foremost for it to work, not made in homage of a group of home-made special characters, as the whole thing then comes off as an excuse to use said characters (whom more often than not tends to be well above average on the respective power scale I might add), and lets face it, if your buddy came to you wanting to field a home made army the first thing you'd take a long hard look at, was his character options.

    I seem to recall that the executioner was well beyond anything I'd define as "good" melee character, vampire or not... Having the potential to possibly slay 5 greater deamons (or similar) in one round of the combat, sort of makes him the nr.1 character/monster killer of all the army books, and that from a character never officially mentioned in any GW material, just seems wrong to me.. Very wrong in fact...

    It seems every time I try to get people's opinion on the actual army and how it will work, how it relates to the official warhammer material etc, then people jump up and get very defensive of the special characters from the TVC, making me jump to the conclusion that this is the reason why people want to see the LoN project get made, or at least, many do. To me it seems like an awful lot of work for this to be honest, but still...

    Speaking as one not having been involved in the TVC, and as a fan of the recent warhammer undead material from the Von Carstein Triology, the Nagash triology, the neferata book, etc), it is very hard to come to grips with the project prioritizing the TVC material/special character over all the more recent official material.

    I'm beginning to think that contributing to this project is a dead end for me personally so to speak. I'm hoping to contribute to something a bit more "sellable" as far as actually getting to properly testing it out on the battlefield itself and so on. Because of the personal non-TVC involvement, and radically different view on many issues, I think it all becomes more of a hazzle and hard work than it is really worth for me. I recerve the right to use my own unit creations and so on further down the line if I get finished with the Bloodline Legacies Project, and perhaps one day in the future posting my own Legions of Nagashizzar project (which was ironically how I found this site in the first place). As a cooperative project, it seems we'll have a hard time getting it done before 9'th ed anyway, and then we'd probably all be tempted to start a new upgrade again. :) Progress just becomes a bit too slow, when having to rely on feedback from X number of people for all decisions.

    No hard feelings guys, and I hope you finish with a LoN list in the end, that both you and your opponents will enjoy playing with it or playing against it. :)
     
  7. The Dread King

    The Dread King Moderator Staff Member True Blood TVC II GM

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    Well, sources vary, and some old GW sources suggest 5 dark lords, and others suggest 12...I did a load of research looking for the named dark lords, and the most frequent number of dark lords was 9 - the current official GW status is 9 - but older sources said twelve or five, and I found five named dark lords. I can't remember all of them, but I think they were: Krell, Arkhan, Virion the Grim, Zacharion (or a similar name, but NOT the necrarch) the Worm (a wight of some kind, similar to Krell), and W'Soran (older sources and some newer ones say he was a dark lord).

    I'm not saying we have to obey the guidelines of the TVC and include every special character/unit from there in the legion, it's just that one or two things we might not have otherwise added into the Legion could be put in there because of the TVC.

    Edit: It was Zahaak the Worm, not Zacharion, and Zahaak is dead (he was destroyed). He featured in the novel 'Runefang' as one of the Dark Lords of Nagash. If you do some research, you will find strong evidence hinting that, or outright declaring that, W'Soran was a dark lord. He was there with Virion and Arkhan when Nagash spread the plague and basically served Nagash until Nagash's second death.

    Virion the Grim moves the black pyramid of Nagash around so the tomb kings can't destroy it. He created the plague in Nehekhara for Nagash. He features in the TK armybook fluff, and there is this not well-known website with rules for him (Jervis planned to make him a special character in some old edition of warhammer). Web address: http://hem.passagen.se/robbe1/undead/plagcart.html

    Edit 2: Some sources (I believe they are based upon GW fluff) say there were twelve dark lords and all of them were liches; either wights, or the exceptional named character like Arkhan. GW had initially planned to make five named dark lords in an old edition (the same one they originally planned to make Virion in, I think it was 4th ed); however, the current number is that Nagash HAD nine dark lords. It is not told whether or not he replaces the ones who die with new followers; if he does not, and we are working on a current day Legion, then there will actually be seven dark lords of Nagash if we stick to the fluff, because W'Soran and Zahaak the Worm are dead.

    It is my belief Virion should be included in the Legion because while he is not well-known amongst Nagash fans, he is actually pretty prominent in Nagash's rise, and is a really important character that is backed up by GW fluff, unlike some of the other characters (e.g.the Crone in the Black Pyramid). The people working on the Legion are not pushed to make him super-powerful either, unlike many special characters the Legion has created, as the only statline he has is an extremely underpowered one that someone considered putting into a really out of date version of Warhammer.
     
  8. Uziel

    Uziel Vargheist

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    D.K:

    Not interested in a long winded debate, just pointing out that your sources are mostly pre-fourth edition (or thereabout), which makes it A: Next to totally irrelevant for most Warhammer Players, and B: At odd-s with all the later, more well developed fluff that is made for the game.

    To illustrate a point, If I claimed that someone was moving the Black Pyramid of Nagash about in my gaming group, I'd properly first A: get some funny looks, and if I persisted, B: get a non-voluntary drug test. :)

    My point is, that this ancient fluff has little or no validity in the world of warhammer we know today, and that next to no-one has any meaningfull knowledge of it. It is not something supported by today's GW. It migt haave been fine to base it on this material back in 4the ed, but to most people it makes sense no longer.

    Just so that it is clear, my problem was never about including a named special character or two based on the TVC (assuming the fluff makes sense alongside the official fluff), but rather working within very sketchy, ill defined framework (for me with little knowledge of the TVC fluff) that contradicts to often with the official fluff.

    This is why I see no point in spending my time working on this project any more. It is my own fault really. I didn't realize until too late how strong the tvc influence was, nor how much people seemed to want to cling on to long outdated source material, in preference for the newer, much more detailed (and I dare say much better as well) and relevant material.
    But that is my opinion, and I realize that this is not really what inspires you guys to work on the project in the first place, which is why I think it is best if we part ways on this project. Ultimately, we sort of have to have the same ultimate goal to get anywhere meaningful after all, and I seem to be the proverbial thorn in the paw as it were in this case.
     
  9. The Dread King

    The Dread King Moderator Staff Member True Blood TVC II GM

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    Please don't leave, Uziel, you've been absolutely great on this project; I doubt it would survive without you! All the TVC members (bar DoN) have quit this project anyway, and this whole thread was here to determine the direction in which we would push the Legion. I suggest a significant shift away from the TVC, you suggest a somewhat larger shift, from what I gather.

    BTW, I believe it is stated in either the current or the previous TK army book that someone is inside the pyramid of Nagash, protecting it from the tomb kings trying to destroy it somehow. It is not stated who, but older sources point to Virion the Grim.

    You are by no means any thorn in anyone's side, just another mind (indeed, a brilliant one) working on the project, and it's good to have different minds putting stuff in a project, else it is in danger of making a seriously rubbish (overpowered, underpowered, boring to play, etc.) army, and the Legion will become so small if yet more people start giving up on it that we might as well put it in the User Project section of the forum.

    Your skeleton legions, for example, were brilliant, and I for one had not thought of anything like it! It brought a whole new side to the Legion of Nagash, which I doubt will survive without you. This project has lost momentum; that's all, and it needs to be picked up again.
     
  10. Disciple of Nagash

    Disciple of Nagash The Perverted One Staff Member TVC II GM

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    I need to read through this mass of text xD

    I can then give you the proper history of the LoN, and also the intended direction which I can best provide considering I have been running it for so many years ;)

    I can say certainly the LoN was never based on the the TVC, in fact the LoN has been going on much longer than the TVC. Uziel, your input has been great so I would prefer if you was still involved. Give me some more time to go through the thread and I can then formulate a proper response.

    Cheers :thumbsup:
     
  11. Uziel

    Uziel Vargheist

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    D.K:

    No hard feelings or anything D.K, but I think that if this is ever to be done as a co-op effort by forum members, we need to have the same end game in mind for it to work, otherwise will just spend endless hours arguing why something should be this way or that. So far, I seem to be the only one pulling in the direction of the newer fluff and making it fit the current official warhammer world as best we can, while the rest seem to have another focus or end result in mind, and I'm not really entirely sure of what that is to be honest.

    What I personally would be interested in seeing get made is a project, with fluff and units, if it is presented to the "average" warhammer player (whom might be familiar with some or all the various undead based novels of the last few years), its something I could sort of easily present to him (or even better, her...) with a minimum of fuzz to get acceptance for it to actually being used on the table, with both parties feeling as they've had a new and fun gaming experience, both spoiling for a re-match. Simple as that (in theory at least...). It is simply much too much work behind such a project for anything else in my personal opinion.

    This is why I forsee a problem basing it on any TVC material, or even the older GW material that has been re-written in the last few years, as I can hardly ask an opposing player to read it all for a battle for one thing, he'd also get confused due to all the contradictions to the new gw material as far as army books and novels go if he bothered to do so (which I doubts btw).
    For the TVC members themselves, making this list when it was originally made, was probably a lot of fun, but I have m doubts as to how many have actually gotten to use it on the battlefield, especially against more seasoned gamers.

    DoN:

    Take all the time you need. You seem to be quite a busy man for the time being, and life is like that at times. That's ok. In the end, it is your project, and you who have to make the big decisions on it. As said before, I'm not a fan of voting on stuff like this in general as far as such project goes in the first place. :)

    Just to clarify, there is no bad feelings or anything. Disagreements are normal and healthy to some extent. I just need to know the end result will be something I'd be happy with for me to spend this much time on it if I decide to continue being involved, that's all. Just telling you all straight up, instead of just stopping to contribute or take and interest. :)
     
  12. Disciple of Nagash

    Disciple of Nagash The Perverted One Staff Member TVC II GM

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    Right then.

    So before any decisions are made about working / not workin on the LoN, please read my points below. After the hard work put in, I think we should at least work out the direction of the LoN. If after people don’t agree with the direction, then of course the decision is theirs.

    History of LoN

    The LoN started back in the 6th Edition of Warhammer, based on fluff from that point up until then. The remit was to create a Undead army that differentiated from both VC and TK, but contained the flavour of Nagash. Admittedly it was lead by us oldies who remember the 4th and awesomeness that was Nagash and wanted to bring him “back to life” in someway.

    This project was not actually started by me, but I took over once the original person stopped posting quite a few years ago. I have been leading it ever since.

    The inclusion of the TVC was purely for a couple of Special Characters. The premise worked on the nine Dreadlords, and as we had created them in the TVC it made sense to use their quite indepth fluff to generate characters. To be fair however we never completed those characters. Everything else was designed from discussion and those units that appeared in the TVC was actually due to influence from the LoN, not the other way round.

    The main key points at that time were:

    *Superior Necromancy / Magic
    *This to be reflected in the troops possibly (i.e. that the troops were raised in better “quality” for want of a better word).
    *Mix undead with mortals
    *Nagash to be included *somehow* (not necessarily walking around kicking arse xD )

    So they concerns raised previously are not actually relevant, as there been a misunderstanding on the history.


    Now, to actually look at the points raised:


    Has Nagash risen, or is he on the verge of rising, as is implied in the VC and TK books?
    From my view he has risen, however is much weaker than before. Basically as inferred in some sources, he sits in Nagashizzar on this throne basically not moving. He does have his giant armoured / bone body, but it has not moved in years. He ventures out in visions / spirit forms, directing his followers (or subtly manipulating). Magically he is still extremely potent, however he is pretending he doesn’t exist.
    His main direction at the moment is to get his claw and crown back, as they contain portions of his soul (extrapolation on my behalf). Combining these he believes will allow him to return to his full strength and take over the world basically.

    Who are his present day Dark Lords? Why do they work for Nagsash? Do they work Willingly or not?
    Arkhan is one for sure, and I like the idea he is Nagash’s right hand man so to speak. Personally I like the angle I put on him in the TVC, which dependant on the rest of you could be included. The twist was that whilst to the rest of the world Arkhan appeared to be Nagash’s most loyal follower, he is in fact imprisoned. Nagash found of Arkhan’s betrayal, and consistently resurrects and forces Arkhan to do his bidding as everlasting punishment. I think it would suit Nagash’s mindset to show death is not beyond his grasp, and even someone as potent as Arkhan is powerless against in. Arkhan has no choice but to obey Nagash’s directives even though he doesn’t want to.
    As for the other Dreadlords, these are open to discussion. I do like some of the Dreadlords from the TVC but I am not insistent on them.

    -What is happening in Nagashizzar itself btw, and who has effectively been running it the last few centuries?
    Nagashizzar is operational and the mines are be excavated for warpstone (we can say that a new though smaller amount has been located). Skaven have been forced back to the lowest unused levels and kept at bay at the moment. Already many legions of the dead have been made ready in the vast halls, and they march out from time to time when something importance enough warrants it.
    The Cult of Nagash is lead from here as well, with many human followers. Nagash knows the need to be able to infiltrate the other lands with enough humans and the cult has been growing enough to include units of warriors if needs be.

    -How much do we base on the old Undead army book, and how much do we base on all the more recent and detailed fluff (ranging from the Nagash Triology, to the Sigmar Triology as well as the Neferata book)?
    This is difficult. I do not want to ignore all the old fluff, as far as I am concerned some of it was much better than newer. However that said, I do see some benefits from the newer. Personally I would want to try and take from both sources, making a decision where conflicts occur.

    - The power of our Spells/spell Lore/magic support etc:
    Yes I think we all agree it makes sense to make the Lore of Nagash more potent. On that note I would prefer a name like ”True Necromancy” or similar. I think it should have an end result in the following:
    *More stable / safer, the impression it gave in previous editions. It may not have been as destructive, but it was much more reliable and safer. I like the idea of being able to palm a miscast off on a undead model nearby, possibly dependant on the magic level of the user.
    *Potency. By this, how in works with the Undead gives the impression it is more potent than the weak incantations of TK or watered down Necromancy of the VC.
    We can discuss this in more detail in an appropriate thread.

    - The army's overall Melee ability:
    I think we can come to some kind of agreement on this. The main reason for creating some potent troops was to actually a) have some troops that could win and b) were interesting to use (an army full of rubbish skellies not being much fun). I think what you have brought to the LoN Uziel via tactical options could be used to swap this over.

    So instead of potent warriors, we could have tactical options that still allow winning in combat, but via skill and tactics rather than overall brute force. That said every army has some potent combat options, and whilst we can ensure the LoN is not based around them, we still need some options.

    - Ranged ability:
    I think we again look at the tactical use. I think basic ranged weaponry is fine, but we want to retain their uniqueness. If we perhaps give them some kind of tactical options it might be interesting.

    -Psychology:
    I think this area is fine. However we may want to reflect the subversive and manipulating nature of the LoN more.

    - Tactical flexibility:
    I agree we should concentrate on this as a strength.

    -Fancy Wargear:
    I agree that overall the whole army would not have potent wargear. Apart from elite troops / characters then most of the army should not have high value gear.

    -Movement
    At the moment I see us middle group, neither too weak and too strong. I am happy with that and think that our movement in the normal phase should remain that way, with some boosts in the magic phase.


    Overall I think we can come to an agreement on the overall direction of the army, it will be actually discussion the entries that may take some time xD
     
  13. The Dread King

    The Dread King Moderator Staff Member True Blood TVC II GM

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    What you said seems legit, DoN. Except perhaps Mannfred's ritual (metioned in VC army book) may give Nagash a serious power boost (i.e. GW fluff suggests some power is lost because he is split up from the claw and the crown and that other power is lost because he died, and is slowly being regained over time; perhaps Manny's sacrifice would give lots of Nagash's power lost in his deaths back to him instantly?) This may motivate him to launch an attack on the world once more, in combination with the finding of the warpstone in the mines, and a certain other event I have in mind that I'll post up soon. It would make no sense for Manny to do the ritual if, in the Legion's book, the ritual did next to nothing, as Kemmler, and Krell and Manny have worked very hard and think it will bring back part of Nagash's power into the world.
     
  14. Disciple of Nagash

    Disciple of Nagash The Perverted One Staff Member TVC II GM

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    I don't think we want to have the Legion's direction of Nagash launching an all out attack, otherwise I am reasonably sure that with such a threat most of the powers of "good" would put aside their differences to unite.

    Likewise whilst the fluff will reflect Nagash is immensely powerful, it would make sense that he is biding his time until he is at his peak strength rather than risk defeat again.
     
  15. The Dread King

    The Dread King Moderator Staff Member True Blood TVC II GM

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    Not an all out attack, but a "let's do this" moment, or so to speak. I.e. In fluff terms, Nagash's army has been neglected for some time, not fighting many battles (no important ones), it's not updated to meet the most modern developments in warfare, and wargear not fully repaired, legions not fully organised, etc. But after/some time before/at the time of Mannfred's ritual, Nagash decides to take on the world again, and feels lively enough to re-organise his forces, and it is after this "update" by Nagash that I think the current Legion should be set in.
     
  16. Uziel

    Uziel Vargheist

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    DoN:

    That want a long way towards clarifying a lot for me. :) Thank you.
    It seems you have taken a much more open view concerning any changes being made as far as the previous 7.ed material is concerned, which makes contributing as "new" member much easier, which will hopefully inspire others to join the project as well.
    Before it felt like we were just trying to update the 7.ed list, much more than creating a proper 8.ed army list from scratch, and that in itself was not very inspiring for someone who was not part of the 7.ed list I have to say, but now I see possibilities instead of rigorous limitations.

    DoN & D.K:

    Just a quick question. I am assuming that you are both familiar with the Nagash trilogy, as well as the Sigmar trilogy, but have you also had the time to read the Neferata novel?

    My thoughts on some topics:

    -Nagash: Nagash is stated as having come back to "life" after his death at the hands of Sigmar in 1681 (the Night of the Restless Dead) in the VC book, yet we have Arkhan on a mission to retrieve his Staff in sylvanaia in 2350 according to the T.K book, something which signifies to me that Nagash is not "up and about", even though he can obviously communicate with his dark lords somehow and get them to do his bidding.
    I personally favor the immobile on the throne angle to him. Heæd need a major source of new magical power to become truly active again, as he is too far from his black pyramid, and the skaven would have had all the time in the world to get the last bits of warpstone from beneath cripple peak.
    I don't think Nagash need be in the list as a character. First of, a crippled Nagash doesn't really do him justice, and secondly, it gives us a lot of leevay with bringing forth his Dark Lords.

    As far as Nagash's power goes, it is stated pretty clearly that he was "leaking" magic before he made his armour (and crown), and he has historically been dependant on the power from the black pyramid or warpstone. Withot any of these, he'd not even approach his formal power, and that's without factoring in the loss of the crown and his claw. He also seems content to let Arkhan have his staff (drawing on the power of the black pyramid), but then again, I guess that is the staff he used while still a "normal" human being, and not the walking monstrosity he later became..

    As to his motivations, he is quite obsessed with his crown, but also know that he needs to buy his time (which he has in abundance), since the Empire is now much stronger than it was, and his armies are not what they once were. He needs to be cunning, and manipulate others into weakening the empire (such as Kemmler and Krell) to such a degree, that he can safely make a move for his beloved crown. The empire now have powerful allies, the colleges of magic, their engineers etc..

    -Arkhan: Arkhan does not want to be Nagash's servant, but as in the new novels, he is all to familiar with what failing Nagash entails.. In the Neferata novel, he even seemed to seek out the answer as to how she could refuse to serve Nagash etc. This all makes Arkhan a very interesting character.

    -Nagashizzar:

    I don''t like the new source of warpstone angle to be honest.. The skaven would have ferreted out anything of that nature long ago.. It also sort of gives nagash everything he needs right at home, removing the need for his armies to be up and about (which sort of takes away the reasons for the LoN to be fighting other armies and so on on a smaller scale). There could be iron deposits found however. The skaven are not better than others at sniffing that out.. Iron is also vital for a war effort after all...

    -The Dark Lords:

    We have a lot of options here, but we also have to step carefully. Arkhan seems like a natural fit, but we can't ignore that he is an official character, already in the T.K book... This complicates matter a bit. The same goes for Krell as well. I love both characters, bu I'm not entirely sure we should bring them into the LoN, and if we do, we have to treat them very carefully.
    The number of Dark Lords is not really that important either, as they may very well have been nine officially at one time, the newer fluff really don't bother with this at all. This number has always varied, and the term itself has not really been used that much.
    The idea that I like best personally, is to bring back the "Immortals", the undying servants and slaves of Nagash made with the use of the original Elixir of Life. Arkahn has the know-how to make it for one thing, and Nagash has never been a fan of anything even resembling free-will amongst his servants.
    I also like the options this gives us, as Nagash's servants work to find worthy candidates to become his new Dark Lords, from all over the Old World..
    With a little bit of a flexible build option here, I think we can make the "Immortals" an interesting character choice, without undermining the VC and TK books.

    -Source Material:

    One of the reasons I want to base it on the newer material, is that it is simply so much more to work with for one thing, but also because this will be the "official" story for warhammer players for the next 10-20 years (and that's assuming they ever go into this material again, which I doubt). The army can't just be for the die hard old-timers like ourselves, but also something most players will be "familiar" with.. If people start raising questions because we field a LoN army, which is not at all what they expected based on what they've read, then this will go a very long way towards undermining the credibility of the list for most players.
    Personally I think we should base things on the new fluff, but we can also find inspiration in the older fluff, as long as it does not challenge the new fluff directly.

    -Mannfred:

    The VC book indeed states that Mannfred has made a pact with servants of Nagash to one again summon him back from the dead (which is a bit ironic as the same book claims he rose again in 1681), and while I loathe the fact that Mannfred has been made into a Nagash pawn (doesn't go all that well with his character from the trilogy for one thing), I can't really deny the fact that it is written there though.. I really disliked that GW had taken this angle in the last army book. a Vampire like Mannfred should be his own "man" I think, especially not a willing pawn of someone else, especially not someone with a bad track records as far as vampires go...

    -Tactical:

    I'm quite happy to see what you are writing here DoN. It seems I have finally been able to convince you that "more elite" undead army is not the way to go, and that you are starting to embrace the idea of the army differentiating itself tactically from the VC/TK ones based on tactical flexibility, and not just having higher stat/better gear undead (and thus ending up with a smaller than average undead army or "Legion"..
    Just to make things clear, I'm not against some powerful units in the list, because more powerful necromancy should have its advantages as well, but that we need to find a good balance and work hard to keep the list different from the VC/TK ones.

    Overall, I'm quite happy with what I've read here DoN & D.K. I'm positive that we can find enough common ground to continue the project after all. :)

    One point though DoN, I realize that you were quite hesitant about making changes to the established material for the LoN project in the first place, but I say that we make the 8.ed into OUR project. The 7.ed project is still here on site for those interested, and it will always be so, but that doesn't mean that the 8.ed project has to be built on top of the 7.ed one at all. There is no intended disrespect to the 7.ed makers for us to do our own thing after all, and I really don't think that doing an "update" is what anyone possibly getting involved in the project is looking forward to do... The 7.ed contributors are not involved either, so I don't really see a reason for us three to be restrained by what was made for 7.ed. Besides, things that were made for 7.ed, don't necessarily translate well to the 8.ed game either...
     
  17. Disciple of Nagash

    Disciple of Nagash The Perverted One Staff Member TVC II GM

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    I have read the Nagash trilogy, need to finish the Sigmar one (started to bore me xD ) but no I have not read the Neferata one.

    In regards to the comments made, my thoughts:

    Source Material / Other army books:
    I’m doing this one first as it relates to the other points. Yes I agree that we need to try and keep with the overall concept of WHFB. However that said I see no problem with making certain reasonable tweaks and changes, as does every armybook. I have lost count how many times one army book says the opposite to another.
    I am not saying we necessarily go to this extreme, but I see no problem adapting our fluff as long as we can justify why the rest of the Old World may have other ideas.
    In regards to fluff, I can’t necessary agree there is so much more to work with. Remember the BL stuff is normally not considered official fluff, only that written in army books. In that case the information on Nagash is very light. However I do like the fluff in some of the recent stuff and would be happy to work with it, however I do not want to base everything on that. As I said before I would prefer to work with an amalgamation of the two, making decisions on the discrepancies as and when they occur. I am not saying that it should be for just the older players like me, but it should keep both happy.


    Nagash
    In this case I think whatever we decide we can work into current fluff due to the various different sources, plus the fact that we can easily say Nagash has mislead the rest of the world.
    So yes I think Nagash should be “alive” for the better want of a word, on his throne in Nagashizzar. I don’t favour him being totally immobile (not fitting with his previous resurrections in my mind), but more the fact that this is a choice. He knows he has much less power / cannot remember some knowledge. The splitting of his soul in the claw and his crown is still the preferred reason for his actions at the moment, as he believes that being made whole again will at least restore his full memory, if not his power. He could also be searching for new warpstone deposits / powerful artefacts.
    So basically it is his choice to keep quiet, let the Old World think he is dead whilst he works to restore this power through his Dread Lords and the Cult.
    However that said I do want to involve Nagash in some way, I don’t want to totally relegate him to fluff entirely. As a compromise I had an idea along the lines of the following spell:

    [hr]

    The Dark Lord Rises- 30+
    Fluff – the concept is that the caster acts as a temporary vessel for Nagash, with the presence of Nagash causing a massive boost in Necromantic power.
    This spell may only be cast once per game, by a level 4 wizard. It must be the first spell cast at the start of the magic phase and remains in play until the start of the next friendly casting phase.
    If successfully case the power dice expended to cast the spell are reinstated as the arrival of Nagash causes a surge in the winds of magic. The caster retains all their physical characteristics and equipment, however they following changes are also affected:

    Nagash – Supreme Lord of Undeath
    Wizard level 5
    Knows all spells of Lore of Nagash (or whatever we call it) and the below unique spell Everlasting Death
    Benefits from the Ninth Book of Nagash special rule (as detailed below).
    Causes Terror

    Everlasting Death – 25+
    Uber spell fluff
    Immediately roll the following for each unit on the board:
    Core: D6+3
    Special: D6
    Rare: D3
    Characters: Do not roll, assume result of 1.
    Each unit immediately recovers the number of wounds equal to the number rolled. Characters inside units are counted separately and recover one wound.
    In addition all Undead units benefit from the regeneration special rule until the end of this turn.

    Ninth Book of Nagash
    Fluff
    Gives the combined effects of the previous Books of Nagash 1-8 to Nagash.

    Whilst Nagash is present he is the army’s general for all intents and purposes, and the army will suffer the normal effects should Nagash’s host be killed. However should this happen all unit’s with the Nagashi special rule will immediately take a panic test at -2 to their normal leadership value.
    When Nagash vacates the body at the start of the next magic phase, the caster immediately takes D3 automatic wounds, no saves of any kind allowed due to the stress of hosting such a potent being.

    [hr]

    This needs some work, but this still allows some element of Nagash to be involved whilst making it rare / difficult so it does not happen most of the time.


    Mannfred
    Mannfred being a pawn has pretty much been around for a while now. I don’t think necessarily that he has to be portrayed as an idiot who has being manipulated, but more that he discovered the truth of the return of Nagash and realises which side is likely to (hopefully) win in the future. As far as the LoN goes though Mannfred will not have any involvement as he is already in the VC book. Our background fluff however can expand more on his involvement.


    Tactical
    Yes I admit that I have seen things from a different angle. The main thing was your presentation of viable alternatives, as at the start there was a lot of discussion, but not so much a good alternative to look at. With the alternative skeleton units and their uniqueness I was interested to see how else things can work. I think the current route of the units being used “smartly” with tactical options is a good one.

    As for the final point, yes I am willing to discuss all elements and redo the Legion based on current input. However there are a lot of elements in the previous Legion which I designed / liked and I suppose like everyones favourites I will be sticking on certain elements or units. For clarity my main sticking points are:

    *Nagash have a presence in someway (such as the above spell)
    *The Nine Books of Nagash
    *Rituals in combination with Lore of Nagash (now TK doesn’t have incantations, makes the LoN even more unique)
    *Ancient Warrior (and two level mechanics)
    *Ensuring mortal elements are represented / work correctly.
    *Wraith assassin xD
    *Disciples of Nagash (who I have had more thoughts on)

    Not saying they can’t be tweaked perhaps, but in general I like their concepts. As for other things, I believe we should start with the previous version as a basis as some of the stuff is great, and then if decent viable alternatives can be presented then that’s good.
    One thing I do want to stay away from is going in the direction of big mutated creations etc or too many weird constructs like the TK.

    If we can agree on the general principles then we can get started on some elements.
     
  18. The Dread King

    The Dread King Moderator Staff Member True Blood TVC II GM

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    Nagash
    OK, if we agree that Nagash can be in the army in some way, then we don't have to decide on what way until we get to working on Nagash. Though I would say that if we are not going to include him as a moving char. in the Legion, then he should definitely feature as a character in the final battle of the campaign I plan on making (I could open a thread for the campaign now, if that's OK with you, DoN?)

    Fluff
    I would also go for a combination of old and new fluff (though I want Virion to be in the list!)

    Mannfred and the Dark Lords
    Sadly I have never read the Nagash trilogy, but know a lot of fluff on the dark lords (I tried to find all nine named ones once! I found most of them). The idea of creating immortals sounds cool, but I persist that some Dark Lords should be named (preferably 5 or 9).

    On the point of Mannfred, we are doing a char. for Arkhan (are we? I want to, at any rate) so why not one for him? This is the point where we decide which servants of Nagash are important enough to be involved in the Legion. I think that Arkhan and Krell should definitely be included; perhaps Kemmler and Mannfred too. I like the sound of Virion being involved, as he is not in any of the army books as a char. but is so important to the Legion.

    Tactics
    I for one want to make the Legion user-friendly, not something that can only be used successfully by the people who created it. Whilst other armies have tactical reviews and advice all over the web and amongst gaming groups, the Legion doesn't have any, and even if we open a tactical thread for it, and generate great advice, it will be far less than you can get for official GW armies. But I also think that the army shouldn't be overpowered, and that it should mostly lack "brute force"; it should convey Nagash's subtle schemes through powerful necromancy and brilliance if its options are used tactically. Big creations would be annoying in the legion, as they would just add to GW's theme of "WARHAMMER IS A MONSTER MASH!" but medium-sized creatures, such as flesh golems, with flexible tactical options, could be interesting.

    I agree, Uziel, that the Legion should be made "anew", but we would be wise to take some inspiration from the old Legion, and keep all the awesome stuff.


    I believe that if we want to get this done before 9th ed, we should begin work at once on the core section, and possibly another section at the same time, as having two threads open at once actually leads to quicker progress (without getting posts spread too far out between sections of the Legion, we are allowed to post twice in time slots when we are available to post, leading to faster post generation overall). I for one am happy with everything not above, and am willing to compromise or even give in on several of the points I've made, as it would be really selfish to do otherwise.

    It would be great fun to work on the Legion again,

    The Dread King.xD
     
  19. Uziel

    Uziel Vargheist

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    Back Again..

    -Hope you get the time to read the Neferata book soon DoN. It has a lot of good material in it, and it ties together the information from a lot of books very well.. It even features Nagashizzar, the Yaghur, Arkhan the Black, etc..

    -As far as source material and fluff goes, there must off course be room for us to develop our own unit fluff and so on, but I suggest that we try to do so within the confines of the newer fluff, or at least not work directly against it if it can be avoided. It will make the army much easier presentable I think.

    -As far as including Nagash in some way, I agree that his presence can be made manifest somehow in the list. I was thinking the same thing yesterday, but my thoughts were perhaps in a somewhat simpler fashion, perhaps using the Lore Attribute for our spell lore in some way to get this across.

    Btw, how about just calling our Lore "Necromancy"? After all, Nagash is the inventor of Necromancy, and the "necromancy" spells from the 7.ed VC book is gone now anyway, so there is nothing opposing this any longer...

    -I realize that you personally have made a lot of contributions to the 7.ed project DoN, and I understand that you want to bring the best ideas along with you into the 8.ed version. I have no problem with this, but I have a few small concerns as far as a few of them goes, but I'm sure we can come up with an agreeable solution to it. Here are my immediate thoughts:

    *In 8 ed, all the army books have a limit of ten unique magic items. Are we to have nine books on top of this?? Also, a number of Nagash's nine books are "stolen" (Arkhan has one as well). One was even stolen from Nagash's throne room in the Neferata novel btw.
    I'm all for having the Nine Books present somehow, but I think nine separate ones will give us too many options, and also go against the established fluff on many points. Just to make it clear, I want to see the nine books in the list somehow, but perhaps to have an Arcane Item option like Arkhan's one book.

    *I've said it before, but the rituals is something I have a bit of a problem with. "Rituals" are not really something I see having a place in the middle of a battle for one thing, and I think it takes focus away from the Necromancy as well. Also, the argument made earlier that it was not magic is far from airtight as far as the warhammer world goes. True, the TK don't have the incantations they used to have (their spells are called Incantations instead now), but there is a good reason as to why this was fixed, and I think its a bad idea to go down this path again, especially as an added bonus to the more powerful magic that our normal spell lore is supposed to be. It is perhaps the thing I'd react most to if I was presented with such a list and asked to play against it myself, aside from any obvious power trip special characters perhaps. There is also the fact that Nagash's Rituals were always great rituals with huge impact, and not just a little buff or hex here or there. That's what normal spells are for after all.. If you insist on rituals, at least make it a grand thing then, to do Nagash's legacy as far as Rituals go some justice, and not a list of easy to cast, stackable bonus spell-list of some kind..

    *I like the Idea of a Wraith Assassin of some kind, but I also imagine a regular wraith could very well do the same job. Not really much of a use for training for an ethereal after all. That said, I still think it is cool on many levels, but I'm not entirely sure it will be that easy to get the balance right.. Ethereal characters are very tricky to deal with, and can very easily become much too powerful. Just advising a bit of caution here. Not saying it is not doable though..


    I think you are right in shying away from the huge monster type rare section idea found in the TK list and so on as well DoN. We don't want to make too similar a list to the others, and we certainly have no models that we need to push to make money. Besides, huge monsters like this takes up a lot of points, thus reducing any feeling of a "legion" on the tabletop significantly as well.

    What are your thoughts D.K? Damn, it seems we posted at pretty much the same time...
     
  20. Uziel

    Uziel Vargheist

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    D.K:

    I strongly urge you to read the Nagash trilogy as fast as you can, as well as the Neferata novel. The Sigmar trilogy is also relevant, but I'd argue that there is not that much of use there material-wise as the two other sources.

    As far as special characters go, I'd not like to see Kemmler nor Mannfred in the list. They don't fit at all.
    I can understand the arguments of both Arkhan and Krell, but at the same time, you have to consider that if this is a present day list, then both Arkhan and Krell are doing Nagash's work right were they are, without the need of his armies (his resources), and what could be better than that as far as Nagash is concerned? Having battles where Krell 1.0 fights Krell 1.1 also becomes a bit of a let down.. hehe

    By not including any of them, we can instead make 2-3 special characters of our own instead.

    Btw, do you have the fluff on Virion somewhere?
     
  21. Disciple of Nagash

    Disciple of Nagash The Perverted One Staff Member TVC II GM

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    Ok, I don't want to drag this on forever, as we need to actual crack on with designing the army.

    Time to make some decisions then. Based on the discussions so far, I think we can all agree on the following:

    *Agreement to review all army to updated to 8th. Starting point will be previous version of the LoN, however there will be scope for new units / changes that fit in line with new concepts.
    *Nagash will not be a special character, however will be present in some form (in this instance unless there is a viable alternative, I will be digging in my heels for something along the lines of the spell I suggested. I am want him usable in some format, even if only for a short while, not just relegated to a distant influence)
    *Redo magic, renamed to Lore of Necromancy. This Lore will be potent, specifically designed to be a more powerful and stable version of undead magic. To counterbalance it will be very limited in destructive spells (I suggest we only have the Gaze of Nagash or equiv as direct damage).
    *Rituals will feature in some fashion, however they may be made more powerful, allowing the Lore of Necromancy to focus on supporting the dead.
    *The Nine Dreadlords of Nagash will be the primary leading character element of the army in Nagash's absence.
    *Nagash will be alive but pretending to still be dead whilst he focuses on restoring his power. Fluff to focus on his manipulation of the outside world, the tasks of his Dreadlords and the growing Cult of Nagash.
    *The main strength of the army will be based around superior Necromancy, reflected in Undead units have Tactical options, and also having mortal (Nagashi) elements. There will be some elite / potent troops and characters however there will be a limit on monsters / constructs / creations etc.
    *Therefore from that, the overall look and feel of the army on the board should also be like playing chess, giving them impression of an overall master plan delivered using tactics, misdirection and subtlety rather than brute force.
    *Arkhan will be in the army (only because it would not make sense not to have him). Otherwise any other characters who are in other army books will not be included in this book.


    I think this gives us excellent direction.

    To answer Uziel's points:

    Nine Books of Nagash: His books may have been taken at some point, but it is not a far stretch to assume that Nagash could have many new copies to replace the ones lost. As the main elements of the lore he created, it would also make perfect sense that they would base the teachings of those in his army.
    In short, this is probably one of my favourite elements of the previous LoN, and one I will be wanting to keep. I see the books more of the LoN equivalent of vampire powers, with the casters requiring to take a book, and then having their magic allowance on top (the book does not count as an arcane item).

    Ten unique magic items: Yes I concur we will have to scale back our expansive list. I think we should pick the choice elements out of it (there are many good ones), however as said the Books of Nagash should not be part of this as per my previous comment.

    Rituals: As per above, I am willing to discuss the variation of perhaps scaling them upwards you mentioned in the relevant thread.

    Wraith Assassin: To my mind this is a very fun character, quite different and adds a dangerous edge to the Legion. Especially if we are scaling back in other offensive areas I would like to keep this character. I personally like the current rules and think with some tweaks that they could still work. From a fluff perspective it also makes sense - if you have a creature you who could pass through walls, drains the very life from your enemies and so on - wouldn't you turn them into a potent assassin? I would. Admittedly I may be influenced by a chapter in the TVC where these were included, coming out of thin air to wreak havoc to the vampire Council, stopping them from effectively deploying to meet Nagash's Legion.


    So if we can agree on these last couple of points I think we can make a start. I do think we can work on two threads at one point without issues.

    As for the campaign DK, I think that should wait for now. We need to create the army before thinking of campaigns for it.
     
  22. Uziel

    Uziel Vargheist

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    DoN:

    Ok, we seem to be getting somewhere. :)

    Some quick points and brief ideas:

    -I don't think we should use the Gaze of Nagash spell even, as that is in the VC book already. Our casters could also possibly have access to Lore of Death, in which case we have access to limited range magic misile type spells in any case.

    -I just had an idea as far as the rituals go. How about tying those to the living element of the army? How about a pre-battle sacrifice to gain some sort of effect that is resolved before the battle start? The secrets of these rituals could even be tied into the nine books of nagash, as I imagine that is where his most powerful rituals would be found after all...

    -I get including Arkhan, but we must be subtle regarding him. He can't be that different from the one in the T.K book after all...

    -I don't think nagash having many copies of his nine legendary books is the way to go from fluff perspective (it sort of cheapens their meaning), but he will still have more than enough of the nine left for us to make something of it as you suggest. I'd suggest only the General of the army may have a book of Nagash with him as an option. To lackey would ever get to carry one after all... I like the idea of treating them a bit like Vampiric Powers though. Makes for a cool general option.

    -Wraith Assassin: Not really sure how "trainable" a Wraith would be (the dead tend to be set in their ways), but if the fluff can be made to make sense, I think it is a cool idea to work with.

    Shall we start with the Lore of Necromancy thread? Getting this right is crucial for our army after all, as it will have a huge impact.
     
  23. The Dread King

    The Dread King Moderator Staff Member True Blood TVC II GM

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    I would rather have Krell in the list, but I am OK with him not being there.

    I agree with the rest, except for this:

    -I think we should have access to lore of death and possibly lore of shadow (an option for our more powerful wizards, perhaps) as if the Lore of Nagash has barely any damage spells, it will become quite bad; if a army's lores is completely unbalanced spellwise, then the army's magic is usually not good, and one of the main points of the Legion was that it had good magic.

    -We should keep the idea of a Nagash special char. open until we deal with him. There is a thread for him, and when we decide it's time to talk about how we're going to include him - now that we've decided that he's actively going to be included - we can discuss this in that thread. Even if he is immobile, he can empower his throne with dark magics and put it on the tip/a piece of the black pyramid. Then that can fly around like an epic version of a black shard, and Nagash can blast people from on high, whilst being vulnerable to the dreaded thing known as cannonfire. It would keep those who like an immobile Nagash happy, as he himself would not move (except perhaps in combat) and it would also keep the "active Nagash" fans happy because he could move on his own (because he was on something a bit like a supercharged, maybe small mortis engine that he powered with his magic to move around).

    Uziel, there is a link I put out earlier in this thread to a page with good fluff on Virion. Alternatively, look up "Virion" in the German Lexicanum and use google translate on the text. You get quite a bit of good fluff out of it on him. Some of the TK army books also talk about him, or about someone who was inhabiting/guarding the Black Pyramid for Nagash, and that is a reference to him. If you search him on google, no doubt you're bound to get some more stuff on him, or you can just ask me, as I know a lot about him.
     
  24. Disciple of Nagash

    Disciple of Nagash The Perverted One Staff Member TVC II GM

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    Looks like we are just about ready to wrap this up. Last few points:

    Gaze of Nagash – Yes I agree on this, it was just an example.

    Access to other Lores – Yes I fully agree our casters should have access to other lores. Death and Shadow certainly, as Nagash learnt Dark Magic from the elves it may be interesting to look at an option of giving some option to access this. We can discuss this in the magic thread.

    Rituals – Sounds interesting. As we have agreed on using Rituals in some kind of concept then we can discuss this more in the magic thread.

    Arkhan – I’m not sure how we are going to do this, it’s very irritating for him to be in the TK book as it really does not make sense. It’s like including Sigmar in a Chaos army book. We’ll have to discuss this and other special characters more indepth when we get to them. I imagine they will be one of the last things we do anyway, it’s more important to get the main armylist sorted.

    Books of Nagash – I have to disagree here, and I think it will likely be one point we may not agree on xD I am not exactly saying that every person has one of the powerful books of Nagash. I am saying that each Book focuses on a certain element, progressing in power as the caster advances. Therefore the caster can basically use this knowledge (which we implement in the format of a power) to enhance certain abilities. I fully agree that everyone carrying one of the ancient books into battle would be a bit odd. I will clarify more on the concept in the magic thread.

    Wraith Assassin – I think we are coming close to splitting hairs here xD Yes I imagine to a normal person they would not be able to train a wraith, but to someone like Nagash with his skills he could pretty much force and warp the spirit into what he wanted.

    Nagash – I am in agreement of the fact of Nagash not being a easily usable special character. Mainly because he would either have to be scaled down which would not justify him, or he we would be OP. We could perhaps create a special edition campaign version once we have finished the list, however for the meantime I am quite set on the spell / possession option I mentioned earlier. As I said, this still gives a lot of fun and the coolness factor of Nagash popping on to wreak some havoc. However we can at least ensure it is limited and balanced to some extent by the casting values so every battle does not become “Nagash and gang”.
    I have to admit that if and when we do come to designing an actual Nagash special character, the zooming around throne concept really doesn’t strike me……we don’t want to be a big bloated frog wannabe xD We can discuss this at that time.

    Right then. I think we have wrapped pretty much everything up here, and I have to admit it was a good idea. We at least have a clearer concept to work on, which may make some things easier.

    I have noted that sometimes the threads go all over the place, become hard to read etc. So as well as starting a new discussion thread (I agree magic should be the first area) I am also going to sticky a thread about the process I would like everyone to follow, so at least everything should become relatively easier to read.
     
  25. Uziel

    Uziel Vargheist

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    I think we're in agreement on most things guys, not it is more a matter of how we wish to implement things (a.k.a the fun part) :)

    I agree that it is irritation in some way to have Arkhan in the T.K book, but as he has technically been leading that kind of an Army for centuries now, so it sort of makes sense. That's where his tower is located after all, and it it probably a very good long term investment for Nagash to have someone located in the midst of his most ancient of foes as well.
    I suggest we not do all that much. Give him access to Necromancy goes without saying, and maybe some now options, to show that he is once again in Nagash's Favor. His chariot for instance, might not be so cool an idea in a non-chariot type army, and some of the special rules should be looked at as well. We don't need to do that much with him in fact, but he is very important from a fluff perspective.

    As far as spells and rituals go, I think the Incantation of Reaping needs to be present somewhere in some form, as it was basically the building block for Nagash's magical ascendancy.

    Lets keep the assassin wraith idea. I agree. Just not sure how best to implement him/it/them. I'm thinking that it might not even be best used as a character. It becomes sort of odd if normal wraith is not a hero choice in this list, and there is a very good reasons as to why GW removed the magical items option from them as well, so I#m not convinced a better wraith with access to magical items is the way to go for balance reasons.
    Do you remember the "Herald of Nagash" as mentioned in the old Undead book DoN? The one that was sent to intimidate Sigmar and his allies into giving Nagash his crown? Could this be a piece of fluff and a source of inspiration for "it"?
    If used as a character, and not as some sort of Rare choice, I'm actually leaning towards making it a special character, to balance the ethereal and magical items option out, to keep it from getting too powerfull. Also, it makes sense that an ethereal don#t have the ability to "carry" much...

    Don't like the flying throne Nagash idea either. If he can do that, you bet he can will his limbs into moving as well for one thing, and also it sort of beats the whole idea of him being cunning and not taking any uneccessary risks this time around. If Nagash was observed flying around on his throne, I#m pretty sure more than one alarm would be raised and the council of Light would see a new gathering pretty soon..

    D.K:

    I found this on Virion the Grim btw:
    http://hem.passagen.se/robbe1/undead/plagcart.html
    http://www.angelfire.com/co2/BattleLadder/Virion.html

    I have to say, I didn't find it all that inspiring for a Dark Lord, even though I have an old undead chariot with a wraith mounted on it myself. :) He sort of doesn't do a major Dark Lord justice. As a hero special character choice he might be interesting though. :) His fluff never made it past the Citadel Journal it seems, which is not a good indication that it is all that much as a source material to stick too though, so I don't consider him a "must" in any way or form myself.

    Lets get the magic section sorted out guys, and I suggest we keep this thread open just for more general ideas and so on.
     

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