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Najo ideas for End Times Magic - Feedback wanted

Discussion in 'The Necrarch Workshop' started by najo, Jan 3, 2015.

  1. najo

    najo Mortarch of the Dark Soul Staff Member True Blood

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    The End Times Magic was a cool idea but has three things that cause it to break. 1) the d6 rolled before you cast or dispel ruins the interactive exchange between the two players. Magic went from a game of baiting dice and poker to the players becoming isolated whenever one player rolls high and the other low. 2) the recasting even if dispelled is where broken combos happen, and it was a mistake to go that far. 3) Loremaster for every Wizard creates disparity between wizards with only access to one lore and those with multiple lores. No Wizard should have 64 spells, seriously.

    What I think End Times magic should have done:
    1) 4d6 winds. Highest two for dispel pool. Highest+lowest for reign of chaos.
    2) no broken concentration.
    3) miscast based on number of dice rolled.
    • 1-3 dice = as normal.
    • 4-5 dice = d3 wounds from hits and +1 to effects like instant kill and lose a spell.
    • 6+ dice = d6 wounds and +2 to negative effect chance.
    4) wizards all generate spells normally, except they know the signature spell in addition to their spells AND level 3+ wizards know their end times spells. Wizards can have duplicate spells or choose to replace a duplicated spell with any spell from the lore.
    5) revise OP end time spells. 2++ is too much. 3++ is about right.
    6) recast any spell casting value of less than 15 if not dispelled.

    Then, this segues into 9th.
    1) winds go back to 2d6.
    2) no broken concentration.
    3) use new miscast table as above
    4) all wizards know Sig spell + their level. No duplicate spells.
    5) no end times or recasting
    6) clean up nuke spells and other trouble maker with revision of brb lores.

    I think this gives us a more tactical, storm of magic feel. Keeps the interacting between the players. Punishes six dicing and discourages 15+ spells. Then nicely cleans up magic for 9th.

    So I like to hear everyone's feedback. What works and what doesn't. If you try these rules out, I like to know about it too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
  2. LordTobiothan

    LordTobiothan Crypt Horror

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    I think the issue here is d3 wounds and D6 wounds is literally the same as far as the wizard is concerned so if you ever want to cast anything with more then 3 dice you may as well 6 dice it because 4-5 doesn't remove enough risk to miss out on that extra die.
     
  3. Demian

    Demian Vampire Count True Blood

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    Hmmmm I liked the idea of having all spells for a wizard because it allowed you to reliably have a strategy with magic (regardless of if it was successfully cast or not), so that you could incorporate that element to the game.

    However, I see your point in having a gazillion choices for each magic phase, plus recasts, that ruin the game.

    I'd like that every Wizard (aside from knowing all Signature spells, plus End Time Spells for Lv 3 wiz, that are also Signature Spells according to WH:K) could choose 1 spell, instead of generating it randomly (or... choose as many spells as his wiz level).

    To mitigate the Big Bad fulminating spells from being chosen and frequently cast, a dice limit could be implemented, but not as arbitrary as "D6 roll" but something a bit more suited to the skill (level) of the Wizard that is casting (as in... D3 + Wizard level of Max power / dispel dice on each attempt). And so, while casting with more than 6 PD, miscasts would happen on the roll of any double (which would be a guaranteed miscast for 7+ dice), coupled with harsher miscast results as you suggest :D

    Anyways, my beef is with preparation, magic-wise, and the fact that normal magic is generated randomly, instead of carefully planned. (I would not enlist a Necromancer who only knew Hellish Vigour in most my battles, but one with IoN and also VDM, Curse of Years, Wind of Death or whatever my strategy called for).
     
  4. najo

    najo Mortarch of the Dark Soul Staff Member True Blood

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    Magic isn't as random as it appears. If you bring a level 4 and a level 2 of the same lore, you will get every spell not counting the signature spells. With the rules I put up above, you would get every spell across two casters. Spells being 100% reliable means players don't have to be creative with the lore, which is bad and makes the magic phase predictable as players just do the same thing each turn or with each situation. One of the strategies with magic in warhammer is bringing the right Wizards to gain a certain amount of control over your spell selection. Losing that compromises an area of mastery within the game.

    I could see allowing players to swap one of the spells for a spell and you can't swap out the signature spell. But that conflicts somewhat with the choose spells when you roll a double. Something else, double actually occur more likely on your second wizard from the same lore because the first wizard is not having to swap out a spell for a signature. SO the next wizard is rolling in a pool that is 1 spell fewer. I really think the spell selection would be better than it is now with what I am suggesting.

    Think this way. If you bring a level 2 you're getting 3 out of 7 spells. If you bring a 4, you get 5 out of 7 spells. You bring a 2 and 4, you get all spells and the signature spell twice.

    The other option is to let end times Wizards choose their spells and get the signature spell for free.
     
  5. Malisteen

    Malisteen Vampire Count True Blood

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    Sounds right to me, although I'd consider just rolling separately for reign of chaos. Highest and lowest of 2d6 pretty dramatically cuts down on its swinginess.

    Yeah, I don't think broken concentration is a necessary game effect. It pushes 6 dicing things even more than other effects already to. I'd drop it, or maybe put it in as a miscast result.

    As an alternative, rearrange the miscast table such that the least negative effects are on the bottom, while the worst effects are on the top. Then, if you roll two or more sixes, then you roll that many dice on the miscast table and either add them all up or add the two highest. Or leave the table as is, roll as many dice as you got sixes, and take the two lowest. That way more dice risks more dangerous miscasts without having an extra chart w/ additional wounds.

    On top of that, I would ditch the irresistible force mechanic. Forcing a spell through will almost always be worth the risk of miscasts, and a spell that cannot be resisted is one where the interactivity between the players is gone. Why did you bother saving dispel dice for the opponents important spell if it was just going to be unstoppable anyway?

    Instead, I suggest: for every six rolled on casting or dispelling attempts, the player may (must?) roll and add an additional die to the casting attempt. This die doesn't add additional dice on further sixes, but can cause or worsen a miscast, as described above.

    I would not allow the same wizard to have two of the same spell. I'm not sure allowing multiples of non-signature spells in general is a good idea, either. Spell spam is not a great thing, and the poker game dissolves if players can keep trying to cast their best spell.

    Instead, maybe borrow a 40k mechanic (one of the few from the new psychic phase that I like). A wizard may roll their spells individually from any lore they know like mortarchs do, trading spells for sigs if they like as normal. Or a wizard may commit to rolling all their spells from one lore, in which case they get the sig spell for free (and just keep re-rolling until they get different spells otherwise). Wizards of level 3+ may trade rolled spells for end times spells instead of sig if they choose, but each end times spell can still only be known by one wizard in the army, unlike sig spells.

    Wizards who generate spells by non-standard methods follow their own rules instead, but may trade generated spells for end times spells from the same lore if they're level 3+. Multiple wizards on the same side may not have the same non-sig spells (not counting loremasters or other non-standard spell generation, such as nagash or whatever)

    You should consider revising some of the OP regular spells while you're at it.

    IMO, no. spell spam for most spells is bad and boring. At the same time, some signature spells were meant to be cast multiple times in the same phase (from multiple wizards), and letting a single dispel shut down the spell no matter how many wizards know it is problematic.

    I'd stick to the current rules of casters may attempt any of their spells once, but mostly cannot know the same spells apart from signature spells.
     
  6. najo

    najo Mortarch of the Dark Soul Staff Member True Blood

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    I can't reply right now, have to be somewhere. Good points! Congrats on reaching true blood too!
     
  7. Malisteen

    Malisteen Vampire Count True Blood

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    Oh, hell, I did that? Darn, I was going to, like, make a note when that happened. Guess I got carried away with the whole rumor business. Bwop.
     
    najo likes this.
  8. Quinten

    Quinten Grave Guard

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    Think a wizard should be able to cast as many times as his caster level (eg. level 3 wizard casts 3 spells). Also I feel that magic should be scaled up for larger battles. Currently, with the 2d6 system, 1500-2500 games work well but in a low point game magic gets way too powerful and in a really large game magic becomes less important. Therefore I think you should roll a d6 for every 1000pts you are playing, to a minimum of 1d6 dispeler gets the d3 of the dice. You round normaly (not always up) (eg. playing a 1500 point game you roll 2d6 however in a 1450 point game it is still only one). Surprisingly this does not actually impact the ratio of dispel to power dice significantly. Do the math on 2d6 and you quickly see that you usually get the same amount of dispel and power dice using 2d6 and dispeler gets the highest d6 versus the d3 for dispelers; it occasionally varies by one dice but never by more than that. I like most of the changes you suggested except the dice one. I feel that one needs a re-vamp.
     
  9. Malisteen

    Malisteen Vampire Count True Blood

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    The d3 vs d6 doesn't work too well. Favors casters too much in the ratio (always about double casting to dispel, instead of that being the best possible ratio, but usually getting less than that), unless you mean for the dispeller to roll separately from the caster? But then the dispeller might end up with more dice than the caster, which probably shouldn't happn and the current system doesn't allow. And by 'can cast as many spells as level', that's already normally the casy, in that casters normally know spells = level, and can cast each once. Unless you mean can cast the same spell caster level times? But then you're back yo recasting destroying the interplay of yhe magic phase by letting players just cast the spell they want over and over until it gets through instead of baiting and bluffing.
     
  10. Quinten

    Quinten Grave Guard

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    Although it may initially seem that way when you do the mathammer it works out to very similar to the current system because the d3 is rounded up. A roll of 3 for the caster results in 2 dispel dice. The dispelled gets well over half of the casters dice on average.
     

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