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Playing with the new Points Values

Discussion in 'Summoning the Deathrattlers' started by Malisteen, Jul 5, 2016.

  1. Malisteen

    Malisteen Master Necromancer True Blood

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    I'm working on a few lists to try out the new point system. These are mostly based on what units I happen to have already started pointing, so they're a bit disjointed, but here we go:


    Vanguard - Death Allegiance
    - Wight King with Black Axe (general, Ruler of the Night, Tomb Blade)
    - Necromancer
    - 20 skeleton warriors (spears & crypt shields)
    - 3 skeleton chariots
    - 20 skeleton archers
    - 15 grave guard (hand weapons & crypt shields)
    Leaders: 2
    Battleline: 2
    Behemoths: 0
    Artillery: 0
    Total Points: 980

    Battlehost - Death Allegiance
    - Arkhan
    - Wight King with Black Axe (general, RotN, TB
    - Necromancer
    - 30 skeleton warriors (spears & crypt shields)
    - 3 skeleton chariots
    - 10 zombies
    - 10 zombies
    - 10 zombies
    - 30 skeleton archers
    - 20 grave guard (hand weapons & crypt shields)
    Leaders: 3
    Battleline: 5
    Behemoths: 1
    Artillery: 0
    Total Points: 1760
    Reserve Points: 240 (6 spirit hosts, 10 black knights, or 2 archai)

    Warhost - Death Allegiance
    - Arkhan
    - Wight King with Black Axe (general, RotN, TB)
    - Necromancer
    - 30 skeleton warriors (spears & crypt shields)
    - 3 skeleton chariots
    - 10 zombies
    - 10 zombies
    - 10 zombies
    - 30 skeleton archers
    - 20 grave guard (crypt shields and hand weapons)
    - mortis engine
    - terrorgheist
    Leaders: 3
    Battleline: 5
    Behemoths: 3
    Artillery: 0
    Total Points: 2260
    Reserve Points: 240 (6 spirit hosts, 10 black knights, or 2 archai)
    2500 Total


    There are units I'd like to add or swap out in the above, such as getting the archai into the main list, or fitting some necropolis knights, a royal warsphinx, or a necrosphinx in there to give the list more punch and arkhan something to heal. Or a couple catapults & a necrotect for long range threat. Most of that stuff I haven't even started painting, though, so while it might be better for my army, I'd rather finish what I've already started first. I'd also like to get a third caster in there - maybe a lich priest or basic vampire lord; or heck, maybe even count manfred or kemmler if points could be found.

    The battleline requirement is a pain, especially as the archers, which I quite like, don't count towards it. I might end up dropping them in the long run. As long as my reserve pool is at least 200, arkhan can always opt to summon a squad if there's a good reason to do so. Also, I went with 30 zombies since I have a hard time seeing them as useful at anything less, but if they're just there to pay the core tax I can drop them down to 20. Between that and the archers, I could nab 360 points that way. Enough to add those catapults & tect, or swap the wight king out for a royal warsphinx and get a lich priest, or I could keep 20 archers and add a unit of necropolis knights.

    Losts to think about. As I get more of my massive pile of undead painted, I can start separating units into more focused theme lists, which I imagine would work better than the current hodge podge.

    Still, I like big games, with lots of units, so hopefully I can sell the local scene on some 3,000 point games with the same unit type requirements as the Warhost.
     
  2. Demian

    Demian Vampire Count True Blood

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    I too was starting to plan some sort of guide or semblance of how our army would look at various game points, such as minimum combos, how much should we reserve for summoning, etc.

    These are fine guidelines and should net you strong presence in the battlefield. I will attempt to write a Summoning Guide for AoS, where we can review what best to summon and at what cost, so that we use it as the tactical advantage they are!
     
  3. Demian

    Demian Vampire Count True Blood

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    Double posting here:

    I saw your list over in BOLS, and it seems a lot similar to this one.

    I would just give warning about the gameplay itself:

    Ruler of the Night and Deathless Minions have a 10'' effect zone, shared by all Heroes in the army. That means you're going to march your Wight King and Tomb Herald closely by, thus making your army have to march clustered itself, because you won't be able to distribute all your Heroes to cover more than 10'' round.

    I hope you have considered this and practice some formations and how to move so that you have the whole army protected by Deathless Minions when it matters (Necropolis Knights could be out of range if you are forced to divide your troops to engage)!

    EDIT: 10'' zone
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  4. Malisteen

    Malisteen Master Necromancer True Blood

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    Actually, in that list the herald is there for his actual standard, and unless the opponent has a lot of ranged fire, I'm happy to let the wight king take his own wounds in order to benefit from his wound-halving armor. As long as there's not tons of shooting, then the opponent shouldn't be able to put enough wounds on him at once to kill him outright, allowing him to heal up with his sword. Well, monsters could, but he'll be avoiding those.

    If there is a lot of shooting, then yeah, the list needs to cluster to get the most out of everyone, at least until the ranged units can be charged by faster chariots & necroknights.


    For reference, the list discussed was the same as the last one I suggested in the deathrattle army thread:

    - Wight King with Black Axe (general, rotn, tomb blade)
    - tomb herald
    - 3 chariots
    - 30 spears
    - 15 guard
    - 3 necroknights
     
  5. Demian

    Demian Vampire Count True Blood

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    Ah I see! so the Herald can take command of a flankif you need to split up.

    But what about spells? are you not concerned you will have no way to Dispel / buff the Deathrattles? They are by far the easiest faction to buff from us!

    As a wild idea, if you can spare the points or switch the least desireable unit, you can include a Casket of Souls to Dispel and also cause ranged threat to enemies, so that they want to march towards you as well, and you can prepare and receive the charge with a barrier of Skeletons + Necropolis Knights, then move to counter with your general
     
  6. Malisteen

    Malisteen Master Necromancer True Blood

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    I would love to fit a necromancer in, but it's more expensive than the herald, so I don't see how I would fit it in apart from replacing the wight king. The necro is, if anything, even more resiliant than the king due to its look out sir rule, but I'd rather have the reliable buff from the king's command ability than the unreliable contribution of a necromancer's spellcasting, given that the army at this points size doesn't have any casting bonuses. Plus the wight king is a not-inconsiderable melee threat in its own right in small games. Even a single attack slipping through from his black axe has a good chance of one-shotting an enemy 5-wound hero.

    Even if I could replace the herald with a cater by fidgeting with the rest, I think given the presence of both necroknights and chariots in the army - two units that can both restore entire 5 wound models from the herald's banner ability - make the extra recursion worth more than the necromancer's again limited casting support at this points value.

    Leaving enemy spells unchallenged is an iffy move, admittedly, though.

    Switching from skeleton warriors and chariots to zombies, a corpse cart, and a necromancer might indeed be stronger, though it loses some thematic consistency
     
    Count michael likes this.
  7. Demian

    Demian Vampire Count True Blood

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    Yeah, plus Skeletons can benefit a lot from the Wight King better.

    If anything, you could lose the Grave Guard in favor of a Necromancer and a 10-man unit of Skeletons (with Swords) to protect the wizard, or form in front of the other 30 to absorb a charge... or make a full-sized skeleton spearmen unit altogether.

    Alternatively, you could also reserve those 120-ish points for summoning.

    Perhaps trying to squeeze a wizard in isn't that good at so low points game...
     
  8. Malisteen

    Malisteen Master Necromancer True Blood

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    Oh, a wizard's great. I just don't think you're going to fit a general, wizard, AND BSB separately while still fleshing out as many units as you like. Not without using zombies to scrip on battleline investment.
     
  9. Demian

    Demian Vampire Count True Blood

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    I realized something about the Herald:

    If you plant his banner to heal the Deathrattlers, he cannot move (he is not as the Wight King, who has a smaller area o effect, but still applies his properties, and if he plants it, the radius increases), so you'll have to be careful when to heal and when to draw him closer so he can split up if needed to cover his troops with Deathless Minions, since the whole point of taking Ruler of the Night is to take the most advantage of wound negation over all the troops.


    Also, I do not seek to discourage taking one unit or another, haha. I'm just picturing the game scenario and realizing potential threats to the army, such as not having enough room to ressurrect slain models if you get surrounded (Necro Knights and Chariots beware!) or having to spread your troops too much and not being able to cover them properly, or also, facing too many ranged attacks and not having magic to counter (arcane bolt can target crew members and kill them easily, reducing the war machine's efficiency). Or, at the very last, since Lord of Bones can only affect a single unit at a time, not having a second buff for when you engage with both Necro Knights and Grave Guard could leave you at a disadvantage.

    Is this list meant to participate in the big Season of War?

    And while we're on the subject... should we not make a Carpe Noctem banner, or disctintive or something, so that we can praise our victories for Nagash in the name of the forum? :D that would be awesome!
     
  10. Malisteen

    Malisteen Master Necromancer True Blood

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    I'm not exactly sure there are enough of us here to really warrant a banner, though it could be fun regardless.

    Every list has trade offs. In a 1,000 point game, the opponent will have difficulty surrounding these chariot-based units, anyway, as they're huge, and the pile in move doesn't really allow much lapping around, since the model has to end the move closer to the enemy model it was nearest to when it started the move.

    And while the herald can't move when it uses its banner, the area of effect is quite large, and he only has to use it on turns when the units in question have been reduced to a single model - if they're still at three models no healing is needed, and if they're reduced to two their own banner is enough to fully restore them.

    As for buffs, necropolis knights love vanhels, but don't technically need it, as they already hit like a train, and can grind out anything not capable of killing the entire unit in a couple battle rounds through attrition.

    I don't see dropping the herald as ideal, but you're right, dropping the grave guard could be a good call. 15 just isn't a lot of wounds. While I imagine the chariots and necroknights would be able to draw a lot of attention away, even one round of attacks against the guard is likely to reduce them to a relatively insignificant size.

    They're currently eating 240 points, and while I wouldn't bother with a minimum skeleton unit, that could be used to pick up a necromancer and 3 spirit hosts, maybe. Or 20 zombies.

    Or I could drop them and the skeletons, pick up some 20 zombies, a corpse cart, a necro, and 3 more necroknights...

    But I haven't even purchased my first unit of demigryphs to convert necroknights from (a trio of stalkers are playing stand in for now), nor do I have a corpse cart at the moment, so... *shrug*.


    Anyway, yeah, this will be my campaign list, at least to start. I'll be expanding it into a larger force with Arkhan and a royal warsphinx leading it at higher point values.

    Alright, lets say drop the grave guard, get the caster in there. Then the plan looks like:

    - 1k list:
    Wight King with Black Axe (general, RotN, tomb blade)
    necromancer
    herald
    30 skeletons
    2x10 zombies (they merge up in game)
    3 chariots
    3 necroknights
    purchased & painted for event: 3 necroknights

    - 2k list
    arkhan
    royal sphinx (general, RotN, tomb blade)
    necromancer
    herald
    30 skeletons
    3x10 zombies
    corpse cart
    6 chariots
    6 necroknights
    purchased & painted for event: +3 necroknights, corpse cart


    I'm not sure what to add for the 2.5k point list. A necrosphinx and a second herald? +10 skeletons, +20 zombies, a liche priest, and a mortis engine? 20 grave/tomb guard plus a mortis engine? 2 catapults, a necrotect, and two scorpions? +40 archers, drop 10 of the zombies, and add those two scorpions? Maybe some black knights somewhere - not because they're any good, just because I like the models?

    I don't know. Nor can I really think of something I'd want to add at that point that I don't already have the models for, so no more campaign points that way. Well, apart from maybe a zombie dragon or coven throne, as I don't have one of those yet? And I guess I only have 2 mortarchs, so I could always grab the third.... I'm also lacking in flesh eaters, but that's a whole separate army, not units I could easily slot into this one.

    *shrug*


    Model-wise, I love both the grave guard and the mortis engine, but I play a lot of games against other death players, so that probably isn't the best answer, at least not right away.

    Not that it matters too much, I have a ways to go still just to get through the 1,000 point list, let alone the 2k one. Worrying about 2.5k for this three week event is probably a case of eyes-bigger-than-my-paintbrush. Not to mention my wallet.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
  11. Demian

    Demian Vampire Count True Blood

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    I see, haha.

    As for the Mortis Engine, as I understand, we must play against other factions in the campagin, otherwise our score results in 0 points for Death vs Death, so you should be good there.

    I will also make some lists, if time permits, to tackle the 1000 and 2000 points brackets, and maybe come up with something for 2500, although I'm pretty sure I'll just field Neferata + Cursed Book for that one, and big stuff.

    Will post when I can haha!
     
  12. Malisteen

    Malisteen Master Necromancer True Blood

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    Actually, I need to put the zombies in the 1k list, as the first week scenario requires 3 units of 10+ models, so that makes me feel better about that list.


    Things I'm considering for the last 500 points:

    - 20 grave guard, mortis engine
    - 20 archers (summoned?), liche priest, mortis engine
    - necrosphinx, second herald
    - Necrosphinx, 2 tomb scorpions, -10 zombies
    - necrotect, 2 screaming skull catapults, 2 scorpions
    - necrotect, 2 catapults, 20 archers, -10 zombies
    - 30 archers, +10 spearletons, +20 zombies
    - 2 archai, 20 archers (summoned?), +10 zombies
    - terrorgheist, mortis engine
    - terrorgheist, 2nd herald, +10 spearletons
    - terrorgheist, 2 scorpionts

    In short, there are a lot of nice packages to choose from for a 500 or near-500 point supplement to this list.

    500 points is also enough to fit a second unit of 6 necroknights, plus some other stuff (maybe a mortis engine, maybe a 2nd herald and 10 more spearletons), but that's probably too spammy for my taste, plus I doubt i'd have money or time for a second unit of them before the event's over anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
  13. Demian

    Demian Vampire Count True Blood

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    I assume you'll be playing Terrorgheist from the Beasts of the Grave... since the Flesh-Eaters can't heal without a Ghoul King.

    The Necrotect + 2 Catapults + Archers sounds terrifying hehe, will put a lot of pressure on other shooty lists. I'd go for that!
     
  14. Malisteen

    Malisteen Master Necromancer True Blood

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    Ah, that's right, the terrorgheist WAS overwritten, and the preferable version lacks a points value... hrm. Unfortunate. I was thinking of the terrorgheist to go with the week three campaign scenario, but I'm not sure, now.
     
  15. Demian

    Demian Vampire Count True Blood

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    Unless we get a FAQ where we can ask if TG/ZD can be used in both versions (because a VL on ZD still uses his "old" stats anyways)
     

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