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Shooting and LOS

Discussion in 'Ethereal Edicts' started by Unas the slayer, Mar 1, 2017.

  1. Unas the slayer

    Unas the slayer Ghoul

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    I recall to have read something on the matter of Line of Sight regarding units with multiple models, maybe on GW facebook page, but I'm not able to find anything.

    The question is: if a model in a unit doesn't see the target, can it shoot to it?

    The immediate answer would be "no", but what I remember (and the related reasoning) is: yes.

    If you have LOS on a single model of a unit, you can see and target the whole unit.
    SO
    if a model has LOS on you, its unit has LOS on you (the model that sees you, inform the rest of the unit where you are)

    The objection was: a model behind a wall, simply cannot shoot.
    BUT
    a cannon that shoots a double salve to a unit of 10 models, with 9 of them behind a building and only one visible, is hitting also the models on which it doesn't have LOS.

    (basically, it goes both ways)

    Now, the questions:

    Do you remember to have read something similar?
    What is your take on the matter?
    if you don't think that all the unit in partial cover can shoot, how do you explain that the opposite works?
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  2. Alabaster427

    Alabaster427 Minister of Thriftiness True Blood

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    In the main rules (4 page) for shooting, it says, "Pick one of your units... Each MODEL in the unit attacks with all of the missile weapons it is armed with (SEE ATTACKING)." So then when you go to attacking, it says, "...In order to attack an enemy unit, and enemy model from that unit must be in range of the attacking weapon (not unit), and visible to the attacker (model, not unit)..."

    So each model making a shooting attack must be in range and be able to see its target. However, "For the purposes of determining visibility, an attacking model can see through other models in its unit." So anything other than its own unit, including other friendly units, can block line of sight.

    Think of like in the combat phase. If only one model is range of enemy attacks, you can lose more than that one model from damage. Depending on how you remove models, only that one model might get to swing back. Similarly, an enemy unit only needs one model to be seen and in range (see above) in order to attack and potentially destroy the whole unit.
     
  3. Unas the slayer

    Unas the slayer Ghoul

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    yeah, but dont you find weird, that cannons (for example) can only shoot to things in their LOS... but suddenly, if they see just one orc (the other 19 are behind a building), they can shoot also to the ones out of sight?

    If you can shoot at me, I can shoot at you.

    By rules, you shouldn't (IIRC, reading about the Pestilen plagueclaw, it says "this model does not need to see an enemy to shoot" or something like that. So it's an exception that confirms the rule).

    But I saw many players using a different approach: if some of the models can see one or more of the target models, then all models of that unit in range can attack.
    The reasoning behind it is that many people do not want to check the LOS for each model in a unit of 20+ models. They rather check for if the unit has LOS.
     
  4. Oppenheimer

    Oppenheimer Crypt Horror

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    I bought a laser pointer which speeds up checking LOS for each model.
    My GW has a house rule where you have to be able to see 50% of the model so that we can bunker our heroes a bit which is nice.
     
  5. Alabaster427

    Alabaster427 Minister of Thriftiness True Blood

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    I don't find it weird. Let's say that 19/20 models are hiding behind a building and an enemy cannon can see the 20th model. The cannon isn't shooting at the model; it's shooting at the unit. It still has to roll to hit, wound, and see how much damage that wound does (could still just be one model). Maybe it's hitting whatever it is they are hiding behind and several models are killed by the blast. But that kind of thing is just an example of how complicated 8th edition was.

    As for your argument "If you can shoot at me, I can shoot at you." Are you just ignoring range? Generally, a cannon is going to be able to shoot much farther than an archer. Additionally, you choose which models are removed, so you can still shoot back with that one model (pending it doesn't die before it gets to shoot. If an archer is standing at the only window of a building, the other 19 archers aren't going to be able to simultaneously shoot through that one window, but a cannonball coming through said window would be able to potentially kill several archers.

    Those other players are doing it "wrong," but GW says that if both players agree, then whatever. If you plan on playing competitively, then I wouldn't get in the habit of doing it that way as it might cause problems in a tournament.
     
  6. Unas the slayer

    Unas the slayer Ghoul

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    Well, first of all, we don't ignore range, that part we all agree it's fair.
    Your reasoning works if we're talking about a cannon (blast and so on), a little less if we're talking about a unit of thunderers against a unit of handgunners, when there's no difference between shooters and targets.

    That said, in our gaming group there's not a unique opinion about this (i don't have a precise idea myself!), but the shop's owner tends toward the "check if the unit has LOS".
    And yeah, any house rule stops at tournaments, so if a player is too much used to a certain thing, it can create some drawbacks. ;)
     
  7. Menkeroth

    Menkeroth A Knight of Blood

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    Your shop's owner is right - it's an old GW problem in their games, but we still field mostly units, not individuals like in Malifaux or Infinity, so it's better and more logical to appeal to units rather than models. And easier too.
     

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