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HERO

Wight King
Mar 25, 2009
434
One of my other armies is Skaven and I've got some experiences to share with you guys:

1. As a VC player, there's very little things that can answer a unit of Storm Fiends with Rattling Cannons. Warpstone weapons are magical and 3 of these dudes puts out 9D6 S5 AP shots at BS3, ignoring long range, moving or multiple shots while re-rolling wounds. The only thing that penalizes them is cover mechanics. I've had a unit of 3 put 19 wounds on a unit of knights the other day, leaving him with the champion and 2 chars, before a WLC erased them all.

2. VC have no shooting to answer these guys, while Terrorgheists can be answered by WLCs, Doomwheels or just shooting from the Storm Fiends. The best solution to a knight-bus now is to pure units of Dire Wolves in front of them and hope that enough chaff die while still providing the knights with cover.

3. The Storm Fiends are not very durable, and are very expensive to field. Three of them runs you 255 points and that's pretty expensive for T4 4W models with virtually no save (light armor 6+). Ghouls are the obvious hard counter to these guys, for the cheap, but honestly so is anything else that can touch and wound them. My rare setup for Skaven right now looks like a unit of 3x Storm Fiends with Ratting Cannons, 2x WLC and a Doomwheel.

What do you guys think about these new fat rats?
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Dec 23, 2012
2,046
Oregon
Gaze of Nagash and Death Snipe them ;) A 50+ zombie or skeleton delivery bus with a vampire on foot make short work too.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Apr 10, 2013
1,089
Using wolves for cover sounds like the only solid tactic. Vargs behind cover will need a 7+ to hit, and won't be penalised by the intervening cover when it comes time to charge.
 
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LordTobiothan

Crypt Horror
May 6, 2014
582
Have you thought to add one more to the unit with grinder fists?

Having all those shots appear behind whatever answer your opponent has for them quickly removes that answer.
 

HERO

Wight King
Mar 25, 2009
434
Have you thought to add one more to the unit with grinder fists?

Having all those shots appear behind whatever answer your opponent has for them quickly removes that answer.

I don't like having so many points off the board. If I'm paying 255+ for them, they need to be doing work on T1.
 

Atrophus

Grave Guard
Feb 14, 2014
214
I don't like having so many points off the board. If I'm paying 255+ for them, they need to be doing work on T1.

There is that, but they are pretty much guaranteed to turn up turn 2 and then you can choose the best target.
Plus your opponent will have to keep reserves in place aswell guessing when and where they will appear, the psychological factor by itself is probably worth a turn of missed shooting, just my thoughts though :)

To counter them, vargheists seem a pretty good choice, maybe even the blackcoach? That can certainly soak up some fire and still deal out nice damage on the charge.
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
They're killy, but expensive and fragile. I'm not overly concerned about the guns, but the ability to reliably show up anywhere on turn two, then charge before I can react, is troubling. A gun unit is dangerous but manageable. A tunneling melee unit, though? That will remove my casket, or slaughter bunkered wizards, and there seems to be very little I can do about it.
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Dec 23, 2012
2,046
Oregon
So, basically storm fiends are likely to absolutely remove one element in an army and then get destroyed themselves. The best way to react to them still seems bait them with a juicy target and then reform your bunker and magic missile them to death.
 

Steapa

Ghoul
Feb 8, 2014
103
They're killy, but expensive and fragile. I'm not overly concerned about the guns, but the ability to reliably show up anywhere on turn two, then charge before I can react, is troubling. A gun unit is dangerous but manageable. A tunneling melee unit, though? That will remove my casket, or slaughter bunkered wizards, and there seems to be very little I can do about it.
Well being that I'm a minority vc player an love my coven throne I don't fear them shooting at me terribly. What's their leadership? 6? Battle of wills. Add doom and darkness and they aren't shooting much. That and my war kitty is t8 so protected for the most part. I do however worry about them going full melee and tunnelling. That is much more of a threat. That and d3 wounds right? That and they are an answer to my large block of crypt horrors. They are much harder to maintain than rank and file
 

The Sun King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Aug 22, 2012
4,989
Copenhagen
They are Ld 7.

Since they will likely be out of the enemy's IP and Hold your Ground! range you can easily terror test them off the board.
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
By the time you do, the melee kind has already done its job. Thw shooty kind is, imo, better off w/ the battleline in ip and hyg range anyway, though ip isn't as good for skaven as most others.
 

LordTobiothan

Crypt Horror
May 6, 2014
582
They are Ld 7.

Since they will likely be out of the enemy's IP and Hold your Ground! range you can easily terror test them off the board.

With their 18" range I can't imagine you'd drop them anywhere but somewhere next to your Grey seer bunker.

Anything trying to get in charge range will be shot at and then shot at again with stand and shoot. Very very few units can survive that.

Same reason I consider varghiests a bad answer. The stand and shoot will wipe them with wounds to spare. Something as unbelievably tough as a war sphinx could survive a couple volleys but it is so slow I fear it would never quite make it.

Honestly outside of magic missile spam I haven't found a good way to abuse there relative squishyness, and even then the lores we have access to are short range (meaning you get pew pew dead) or don't hit them very hard.

3 d6 per model with s5 armor piercing magic shots is just obscene. There are of course crazy inefficient was to kill them, like throwing 2 combat units at them (they can only obliterate 1 with s&s), but you’re devoting a lot to one minor portion of their army and that's assuming you can get two units past the hordes of slaves.
 

HERO

Wight King
Mar 25, 2009
434
It seems that some of these suggestions are made in a vacuum. Have you guys played against them yet? Ld.7 is there, absolutely, but there's no way a Skaven player is going to let you Ld.bomb them off the field with Terror, Death or screams. They have 24" threat and I always have them close enough to my bell and Grey Seer so they're within his area of influence.

The best solution for VC is to bubble wrap threats and send them up his life, Terrorgheists next to your knight bus, with layers of Dire Wolves and Hexwraiths running in front of the bus itself, but not too close, with Vargheists either behind the bus, or behind some cover itself as well. When it comes to game time, charge and all and grind down the bell/seer with the lord. You basically fight these new Skaven elements the same way as you would Dwarf gunlines, bubble wrap your forces and pray you go first :P
 

Adam_Barrow

Sleepless Knight
True Blood
Dec 25, 2010
3,068
Nashville, TN
I feel like I'm missing something. Their rules don't change how you fight Skaven. Kill the General, kill the bsb, shake hands. They're like the Abomb, too scary, so it sounds like folks are focusing on them--just like the Abomb. Don't let a red herring freak you out.

Skaven targets, in order:
General
BSB
Whatever is poised to take the most points running away with it when you break it.
 

Steapa

Ghoul
Feb 8, 2014
103
O
I feel like I'm missing something. Their rules don't change how you fight Skaven. Kill the General, kill the bsb, shake hands. They're like the Abomb, too scary, so it sounds like folks are focusing on them--just like the Abomb. Don't let a red herring freak you out.

Skaven targets, in order:
General
BSB
Whatever is poised to take the most points running away with it when you break it.

Doom and darkness + Screaming skull catapult w/skulls of the fallen. Who says we have to commit units? There is a reasonably high chance of dealing with them right there. (if he doesn't cannon your screamer off right away)
 

LordTobiothan

Crypt Horror
May 6, 2014
582
I feel like I'm missing something. Their rules don't change how you fight Skaven. Kill the General, kill the bsb, shake hands. They're like the Abomb, too scary, so it sounds like folks are focusing on them--just like the Abomb. Don't let a red herring freak you out.

Skaven targets, in order:
General
BSB
Whatever is poised to take the most points running away with it when you break it.

Skaven is my regular opponent, his general and bsb sit in a bunker behind a wall of rats. I tried death sniping him but those spells are too short range to ever be in range especially now with stormfiends shooting anything that threatens.

You are far better of protecting your units by grinding through clan rats and hoping you make it through them before turn 6
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Apr 10, 2013
1,089
Rules question time. When exactly do you resolve a Stand and Shoot? Do you move the chargers beforehand? If the chargers are in hard cover at the time that they declare the charge, do they keep that bonus for the stand and shoot? That would put Vargs charging from behind some Dire Wolves or a wall at -4 to hit. Are the Storm Fiends QTF?
 

The Sun King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Aug 22, 2012
4,989
Copenhagen
Sure my comments are made in a vacuum since they are really new and my skaven opponents haven't bought them yet so all my comments are just thought experiments. Should have made that clear, sorry. With my current list I think I would throw my Harbingers at them from a flank, that way that cannot stand and should. Sure the SF's will get a turn or two of shooting something else (which hurts) but he will lose them turn 3.
 

LordTobiothan

Crypt Horror
May 6, 2014
582
Sure my comments are made in a vacuum since they are really new and my skaven opponents haven't bought them yet so all my comments are just thought experiments. Should have made that clear, sorry. With my current list I think I would throw my Harbingers at them from a flank, that way that cannot stand and should. Sure the SF's will get a turn or two of shooting something else (which hurts) but he will lose them turn 3.

They are skirmish and can move and fire, the moment you reach their flank they turn and shoot you. Then they are facing you and can stand and shoot. Morghasts wouldn't survive that even if he never shot at you until you actually reached a charging position in the flank.

Rules question time. When exactly do you resolve a Stand and Shoot? Do you move the chargers beforehand? If the chargers are in hard cover at the time that they declare the charge, do they keep that bonus for the stand and shoot? That would put Vargs charging from behind some Dire Wolves or a wall at -4 to hit. Are the Storm Fiends QTF?

The only thing the rulebook says on the matter is if out of range you shoot the moment they are assumed to be in range. If already in range I suppose you shoot the moment they are in range which is before they move at all. Unless you are starting more then 18 away then you may not get cover from the wolves.

The problem is, how would the wolves survive long enough for the Vargs to charge from behind them?
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Apr 10, 2013
1,089
The problem is, how would the wolves survive long enough for the Vargs to charge from behind them?

Well, most lists take several units of wolves for just this kind of situation. I know most of my lists have about 30 wolves over at least four units. Apart from that, there should still be other obstacles around to take cover behind. Walls, hedges, forests etc.
 

LordTobiothan

Crypt Horror
May 6, 2014
582
Well, most lists take several units of wolves for just this kind of situation. I know most of my lists have about 30 wolves over at least four units. Apart from that, there should still be other obstacles around to take cover behind. Walls, hedges, forests etc.

Even then you're relying on there being a straight path of space to line up a giant multi unit bus of wolves which makes it extremely susceptible to all of them being blown away by one warp lightning cannon shot. That is a really unwieldy solution.

As far as other obstacles go it might be possible. I prefer not to plan based on what might be on the board though. Especially when the skaven player also knows to avoid letting me do that, I don't like relying on my opponents stupidity either.

It just seems the solutions are very resource intensive and unwieldy, and the defense against those solutions are obvious and take nearly no effort from a unit that can run around 6 inches every turn and still wipe a unit.
 

Atrophus

Grave Guard
Feb 14, 2014
214
Well a couple of big units zombies then with a banshee or two in them, can scream at them safe from shooting and aslong as they don't have any of the melee variants she's safe in combat with them too.

Plus they'll still be useful in an all comers list and the zombies can be raised back up easy.
 

LordTobiothan

Crypt Horror
May 6, 2014
582
Well a couple of big units zombies then with a banshee or two in them, can scream at them safe from shooting and aslong as they don't have any of the melee variants she's safe in combat with them too.

Plus they'll still be useful in an all comers list and the zombies can be raised back up easy.

This was my thought as well but 2d6+2 vs their ld 7 averages 2 wounds per scream and you have to catch them. They move 6 per turn, you at best march 8 and have issues turning. They could dodge and ignore that unit.

You'd be better off without the banshees and just parking a mass of zombies as close to them as you can and just use those zombies as hard cover all game.

Actually you could use a fat zombie unit the same way we were trying to use dire wolves and just screen your varghiests with a unit the stormfiends simply can't shoot through in one round.
 

Atrophus

Grave Guard
Feb 14, 2014
214
So we're saying vargheists with a big zombie screen, backed by the obligatory book of Arkhan to keep the zombies moving to deal with the shooting variety?

But what for the combat variety? Especially the deep striking variant?
 

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