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Sunny & Najo’s Vampire Counts Handbook (2014)

Discussion in 'The Teachings of Abhorash' started by The Sun King, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. The Sun King

    The Sun King Imperator Staff Member True Blood

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  2. Demian

    Demian Vampire Count True Blood

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    Hi!

    About the Summoning Guide, perhaps we should use white as a color to the spell's titles, so that it is not mistaken with the Rating colors?

    :D excellent work, by the way, keep it up!
     
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  3. Adam_Barrow

    Adam_Barrow Sleepless Knight True Blood

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    Word. Pretty much only interested in one box. I may still do Archai for the can opener job they do. A lot of Chaos armor, Gromril armor, and 2+ Ithilmar around these parts.
     
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  4. The Sun King

    The Sun King Imperator Staff Member True Blood

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    Sure thing @Demian - and thank you :)
     
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  5. Pirate Robot Ninja of Death

    Pirate Robot Ninja of Death Vampire Thrall

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    I think Mortis Engines deserve a better rating on the raising chart than yellow. Yeah they're underwhelming in early turns, but raising them up turn 4 or 5 will net you a pulse of S5 or 6 hits. Depending on the board position that may well be more damaging than a terrorgheist scream.

    Not to mention that (unlike a terrorgheist) they will deal all of that damage even if they die. Raising one up as chaff top of 6 means that, should your opponent decide to charge it, he's looking at an 18" bubble of 2d6 S6. That can be devastating.
     
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  6. Adam_Barrow

    Adam_Barrow Sleepless Knight True Blood

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    That's a slick trick. "Excuse me while I summon a bomb."
     
  7. najo

    najo Mortarch of the Dark Soul Staff Member True Blood

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    Yeah, that is solid. We will get things tweaked shortly.
     
  8. The Sun King

    The Sun King Imperator Staff Member True Blood

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    I agree with Pirate :)
     
  9. Pirate Robot Ninja of Death

    Pirate Robot Ninja of Death Vampire Thrall

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    Can't take credit for it myself. Apparently these were a key strategy used by Jacob Brandon (sp?) with his Tomb Kings summoning engine at the masters. Was quite impressed with the notion of late-game Mortis Engine bombs. Especially since terrorgheists are quite underwhelming in certain matchups (wood elves, for instance, with their high LD and general lack of any sort of armour).
     
  10. The Sun King

    The Sun King Imperator Staff Member True Blood

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    The Mortis Engine as a late-game cruiser missile is by no means a new idea as Johnny Crass and myself has been big proponents for this tactic for years, but summoning them gives them even more flexibility as they can get BEHIND enemy lines :)
     
  11. The Sun King

    The Sun King Imperator Staff Member True Blood

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    The long awaited expansion is up! :)
     
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  12. der vued

    der vued Ghoul

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    Hey guys. Great job! :)
    After reviewing some beginner's lists and thinking about sunnies newest challenge to make the worst list, i got to the idea that the unit size is an important factor for the rating scale. Could you add recommended unit sizes? This especially helps, if there are different unit sizes that work but serve different purposes.

    As an additional input i got from a skaven forum, you could add army list guidelines. For example for skaven those guidelines were 1body/10points, 1slave/20 points, 1hammer/1200 points (+ what unit a hammer is).
    For vampires, guidelines could be #redirectors/points #tarpits/points #hammers/points. I`m really interested, what your guidelines will look like! :)
     
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  13. The Sun King

    The Sun King Imperator Staff Member True Blood

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    @der vued Thank you very much! Recommended sizes is a both a good and a bad idea. With this handbook we wanted to present each unit and it's abilities, not in a vacuum but considering the synergies that you can bring to the table. This also means that the handbook avoids leaning towards certain builds, which is why recommended sizes would be contrary to our goal since they don't take the armylist of the player into account. In other words we wanted to keep the unit entries flexible so what we wrote could be used in different builds. If we then use recommended sizes we lean towards the cookie cutter way of making a certain list. BUT there are many veteran generals here on the forum that will be happy to oblige with recommended unit sizes. You could start a thread with that and try to collect all the information in the OP?

    I am not sure I understand your army list guidelines, could you explain further?
     
  14. der vued

    der vued Ghoul

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    Maybe I can start a thread this weakend. As I'm more the assembling-and-only-play-sometimes-in-the-garage-type of player, I will need to check some more professional army lists before starting the thread.

    one guidelines i can imagine is: ~1-1.5 units of redirector per 1000 points of army. redirectors are: wolves, fellbats, and spirit hosts.
    does this sound like a useful guideline?
     
  15. The Sun King

    The Sun King Imperator Staff Member True Blood

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    @der vued : Ahh I understand now. Well those kind of guidelines does not make sense i broad terms as VC/UL can field many very different builds and each has its own guidelines.
     
  16. der vued

    der vued Ghoul

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    You can play vampires indeed very differently, but you will have hard times if you don`t bring redirectors - especially as a beginner. After looking at your "challenges" lists I feel even more convinced that this kind of guideline makes sense. You usally use 3-4 redirectors and nearly always 2-5 (in ~2.4k lists). Also note that they are guidelines for beginners and not rules for everyone. ;)

    But I will postpone the guidrlines for now until the unit sizes are done.
     
  17. najo

    najo Mortarch of the Dark Soul Staff Member True Blood

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    Speaking as a 25 year veteran, I agree with @The Sun King. Redirectors are very useful, but deployment and movement is even more useful. So, certain armies don't need redirectors. Likewise, if you get technical about it, there are ways to use non-redirectors as redirectors AND their main role (be it anvil, hammer, tarpit, etc). Plus, since we have raise dead, redirectors are optional in VC armies. It real comes down to your meta, level of experience and preferred play style.

    With that all said, a new player should take at least 2-4 units of redirectors in a 2000-3000 point game. It will more often than not help them control the game and execute their tactics more successfully. But there is no hard and fast rule like you are looking for. Army construction is both a science and an art. There is an instinct you trust when building your army, and hard rules to follow takes that instinct away. If you need those guidelines, you need more experience and to hon that instinct
     
  18. der vued

    der vued Ghoul

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    @najo thanks for your reply. I wanted to work on this topic tomorrow, but since AoS is released and it is really round bases, I'm afraid this would be wasted energy. :/

    @The Sun King Here is a challenge for you, I have been struggling with (for fluff reasons) for some time now: Make the best list with following restrictions and tell me what your tactic with list would be:
    - No Blenders. Your Vamps should focus on manipulative abilities.
    - No "unestetic" units (ghouls, zombies, crypt horrors, vargheists, varghouls, terror gheists) and no bloodknights.
    - No specials characters.
    + Ethereal is a plus.

    Have fun :)
     
  19. LordTobiothan

    LordTobiothan Crypt Horror

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    :)
    So ghost wall skeleton units. Under those restrictions you basically play really stupid lists.

    Dual mortis engine, big skeleton units with a wall of 4 wraiths and a banshee at the front, and maybe a ghoul king with scabscraith to hunt down things with magic attacks.

    Tactic is basically just to fight things that cant hurt you, seeing as youve removed every heavy hitter we have.

    That exercise seemed pointless, ive run this vs a friend before, he asked me never to do it again and he won a minor victory
     
  20. der vued

    der vued Ghoul

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    @LordTobiothan indeed a valid solution to the problem. :)
    Please note that these restrictions are given by fluff and not to invented to make list building hard. It is true that you miss most of the heavy hitters (GG still possible) and this makes it necessary to adopt your playstyle. you can no longer punch, you have to squeeze your enemy. This makes it more challenging and in my opinion interesting.

    I just noticed that this is the wrong thread. Can an admin please move this to sunny's challenge thread?
     
  21. LordTobiothan

    LordTobiothan Crypt Horror

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    You left out every heavy hitter, grave guard at best punch through small heavily armored units, as soon as the unit in question has more then 10 models, grave guard have trouble putting them down with only ws 3 and 10 attacks.

    Under those building restrictions, the only way to give yourself a chance to make it past turn 3 is to annoy the hell out of your opponent, because you wont have the damage to actually kill them, you'll either get a draw, a major loss, or a minor victory.
     
  22. Firelupus

    Firelupus Zombie

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    Really found this a useful resource for my breathless host.
    Thank you very much guys and girls.
    Cheers
    Lupus
     
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  23. The Sun King

    The Sun King Imperator Staff Member True Blood

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