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The 9th Age version 1.0

Discussion in 'The World That Was' started by Mad 'At, May 1, 2016.

  1. Leithel

    Leithel Grave Guard

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    Thanks @Mad 'At , I'll be sure to do so. I've got more KoW podcasts thank 9th at the moment so that'll help me balance it out, awkward name aside.

    BTW, in regards to @Irisado and Deamons, VC has the Deamon's number in this edition. We are strong at defending all the skills that Demons bring to the board. I haven't lost to them in 9th yet using simple run up the middle and kill em strategies, even with their strong use of fire. 5 for 5 so far. The hardest thing they have is the flaming monster thingy that has a flame thrower. Flame throwers are just crazy in this ed being ultra reliable and super strong and when you chuck it on a T6 boss it's crazy! That said, Varkolak is the answer, it can't flame if it's dead.

    Funny how the answer to so many question in the VC army is "Varkolak". They should have called it the Whip, "When a problem comes along, you must Varkolak it" just doesn't have the right ring to it.
     
  2. Quinten

    Quinten Grave Guard

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    The rules look really clean and balanced, mush better than anything GW put out. I haven't tried it yet (hoping to soon) but it looks like the magic phase kinda got butchered. I understand that super spells needed to be nerfed (purple sun I'm looking at you), and that casting high level spells needed to be more risky. I don't understand why magic in general got a huge debuff. It is now almost impossible to focus on the magic phase and have that phase be the strength of your army. You can't get more than two dice from any sources, and you can't have more than plus three on any one role. In eighth I enjoyed taking manfred, a mortis engine with BT, and killing my opponent with massively favourable dice ratios and +6 bonus casting. I don't understand why it is balanced for people to take a combat deathstar but you must nerf destroy anyone who attempts to dominate the magic phase. I am not agruing for super-spells; I disliked them as much as anyone. I just think that it is a fantasy game and dominating the magic phase should be a viable method to winning.
     
  3. TheTrans

    TheTrans Ghoul

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    Because it is made by the ETC people mate and they loathed randomness.... And monsters...
     
  4. Irisado

    Irisado Ancient Vampire Lord Staff Member True Blood

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    I've only just begun to read the core rules. It has taken me a while just to read through the charge phase. I was hoping that they would have simplified this a bit, but it's still such a laborious just to sort charges out. The diagrams are excellent and very helpful, but it's all still very time consuming compared to, for example, Kings of War. I think that they missed an opportunity to simplify charging a bit.
     
  5. Leithel

    Leithel Grave Guard

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    Well that part isn't true. Monsters are the best part of our list. Sure our Terrorgheist isn't the silly glass cannon it used to be and now it's just glass, but the Varkolak, man that thing rocks. I know it's a monsterous beast, but look at the goblin giant spider thing, 16 attacks, that thing is fantastic and you don't see many goblin lists without one. Of course when you take two of them in a 1200 point game, don't expect many complements from your opponents on your list building skills, yep I'm bitter about that one. Oh and Giants? Man am I glad to see those things back. The chaos demon flame thrower beast thing is scary as hell... and speaking of hell, the Hell Cannon is nasty cool.

    The game is still often won in the list building phase. Screaming Horrors are still great if your opponent doesn't take cannons or other shooting anti fliers, but if they do then they are so much expensive stale bread. That's always been the nature of warhammer though really.

    But yeah, the trick now with magic is to remember you're only going to get so many dice and you need more to cast each spell. You cannot rely on them going off either, because, well that's magic in 9th. Lots of cheap repeatable spells (like invocation) is the trick to a successful magic phase. Don't bother with the massive spells, the one time you're going to have enough dice to cast it is the time your opp is going to use his dispell scroll. Is that a shame? Maybe a little, but there's nothing worse than losing the game turn 1 because of a dwellers irresistible force sucking all your characters into the warp, yes... I'm still bitter about that happening to me also.
     
  6. Quinten

    Quinten Grave Guard

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    I'm not complaining about the lack of nuke spells merely the artificial caps on everything to do with magic preventing you from (effectively) investing too many points into it. You want to get more dice? Sorry can't get more than two. You want to cast with a big bonus? Sorry can't go over three. Plus magic still doesn't scale to game size. This was a problem for eighth as magic was a much bigger part of the game at 1500pts than at 3000pts because it didn't scale with game size. I was hoping they would add a mechanism that would change that.
     
  7. Mad 'At

    Mad 'At Dumb enough to work Staff Member True Blood

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    I've found magic to be very powerful in 9th Age, if you are willing to invest in it. You certainly can't get quite as powerful magic phase as in 8th, but certainly not shabby. Also to note is that while there are limits to how powerful you can make your own magic phase, there are also limits to how well the opponent can defend against it. While you could have a +6 to cast in 8th, the opponent would most likely have +4 or more to dispel. In 9th you can get +3 to cast, and the opponent is most likely going to have +2 to dispel. It is roughly the same, only the absolute extremes are removed.

    The same can also be said about just about anything. Monsters and deathstars included. With a maximum number of models put on all units you simply cannot get those super ridiculous deathstars anymore. Sure you can stuff a lot of characters in there, but in most armies those quickly become very expensive if mounted (which is the worst kind of deathstars).

    On monsters I agree with @Leithel, there are some very powerful ones out there, some might even be too powerful if you ask me (Varkolak included I'll have you all you ;) ). Monsters even got a rank now (unless flying) so they can break units more easily.
     
  8. Leithel

    Leithel Grave Guard

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    I do agree with @Mad 'At in some ways, magic is still useful. I find it much better than 8th, by a long long way. Just be careful not to over invest. Magic users are EXPENSIVE. If you have 8 spells, there's a good chance you're not going to use 2 of them at all in the game in my experience and 2 more you will only use to draw out dispel dice.

    That's ok, but you need to get value out of the spells you can cast. Lucky for us, Necro is great at low casting costs. Increasing unit sizes and buffing units is great for us. My most aggro successful list only had 5 levels of magic. A strigoi lord, strigoi hero and a level 2 necro. Using ghouls, ghasts and monsters the raise spells are just brutal and with 3 of them cast every turn with 1-2 dice each my opponents were just reeling at the number of times they had to kill my ghoul unit down to 10 models only to have to have it get back to 30 next turn.

    My worst magic list was an empire one. I took a level 4 and 2 level 2's. I had so many spells that when I rolled less than 7 I could only cast 2 of them, 1 would be dispelled. That's a lot of points for 1 spell per phase for 6 phases. I even had great spells, lots of great buffs and attack spells, I just couldn't get enough of them away to warrant the points. I lost badly that game.
     
  9. Quinten

    Quinten Grave Guard

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    After playing a bit I retract my statements. I spoke prematurely. Still don't like artificial caps.
     
  10. Kol Saresk

    Kol Saresk Zombie

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    Hmm, do the Vampires have to have bloodlines like this? Seems like a step backwards in the wrong direction.
     
  11. Borgnine

    Borgnine Moderator Staff Member True Blood

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    Bloodlines are optional. Using them gives you various bonuses and makes certain upgrades available, but it's no way obligatory. I also thought so when reading the rules first time ;)
     
  12. Quinten

    Quinten Grave Guard

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    Bloodlines just give the option of playing themed lists and for you to focus on certain aspects. If you want generalist vampires having a non-orientated list is an option and the von carstien bloodline does everything fairly well.
     
  13. Kol Saresk

    Kol Saresk Zombie

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    I fully understand that the bloodlines are optional. But here are your two choices: 1.)pick a bloodline and have all of your vampires be carbon copies of each other, or 2.)have an independent army, but only have one or two vampies in the army because you can only take each blood power once in the whole army when you're independent.

    Restrictive I name thee. That's why I think it's a step backwards.
     
  14. Leithel

    Leithel Grave Guard

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    So you can have may bloodlines, if I understand it correctly.

    If you choose one bloodline, then all your vampires must choose powers from that line. If you don't choose a bloodline, then you can't choose ancient blood powers.

    Theoretically, this is build into the cost. If you're a nosferatu bloodline, you don't have access to Goul Lord from the strigoi bloodline but you can take Blood Magic. But you can have a Ghoul Lord and another vampire with Forbidden Path if you don't choose a bloodline.

    I guess the idea is you can an increase in available power with a reduction in options, so far I've seen very little bad feedback from anyone as to that structure. I have seen some bad feed back on some of the blood powers, and to be honest some of them are just poor for their points where as others are no brainers, but I like the thematic impact on the army and it's really fun to build a list.
     
  15. Von Calyptra

    Von Calyptra Black Knight

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    I can have bloodlines again. Everything else is irrelevant to me.
     
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  16. Kol Saresk

    Kol Saresk Zombie

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    They're trying to do "best of both worlds" to get both the creativity and freedom 8th edition had while adding the supposedly thematic element of the bloodlines. Even though as you just pointed out, the theme could still be met without restricting yourself to a Cookie Cutter Bloodline army that is presented here.

    My problem is that while it's obvious they tried to allow the freedom of choice 8th edition had to be present, it got restricted a ridiculous degree so it wouldn't be chosen over the bloodlines. Simply because while an independent can mix and match, points will limit him/her, while the "One of a kind" rules ensures that you can't use the same power twice in the same army, unless it's a Grand Army.

    Of course, I imagine the reasoning is that it prevents people from creating a bloodline themed list while skipping the bloodline tax.

    But hey, everyone wants bloodlines and they don't care if they have to play a cookie cutter army to get them.

    Personally, I do. Variety is the spice of life and if I want to make some Ghoulkin von (C)Karsteins, then I should be allowed to. But my choices are to either go Strigoi or von Karstein. If I go independent, sure I can make one, but only one.
     
  17. Leithel

    Leithel Grave Guard

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    That's a really good point, and it's a shame that it's more restrictive for you really. I think that there is a large number of people who have expressed their desire to have the bloodlines back, @Von Calyptra for example, and the 9th age have catered to those to keep the player base alive. I hope you still get enjoyment out of playing the list though, I find it quite good fun.
     
  18. Borgnine

    Borgnine Moderator Staff Member True Blood

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    I still think that one can restrict themselves to use only certain blood powers, certain units and use only thematic models and achieve a bloodline army even with 8th edition rules. It doesn't have to be enforced through the rules, just made possible.

    One can argue that there are only a few fitting blood powers, but 9th age doesn't have that much of them too.

    Expanding the amount of blood powers, making the customization easier would be more beneficial to people who want to have traditional bloodlines and to those who want to have their own unique vampires.

    Still, I understand that it may be difficult to balance and organize...
     
  19. Kol Saresk

    Kol Saresk Zombie

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    Well, I'm not saying there shouldn't be Bloodlines, just that I think this is the wrong way to go about it.

    First, you never had to pay for Bloodlines in 5th and 6th Editions when they existed as explicit traits. In fact, in 5th Edition, Bloodlines didn't even affect your stats. All picking one of the four bloodlines did, was determine which nine blood powers(that's right, nine per bloodline) you had access to.

    6th Edition is when both the Strigoi and the Bloodline Stat Changes were introduced as well as the downside of each Bloodline only being downsized to six Blood Powers each.

    In 7th Edition, the Blood Powers were organized into similar categories with a total of six categories with three powers each. At this point we've gone from 36 to 30 to 18 powers. But, while we have lost the Bloodline stats, we're basically back at 5th Edition where a Bloodline is just a name. On the bright side however, the Bloodline of your choice does nothing to restrict what powers you choose. You want a magic slinging Blood Dragon murder machine? Go for it. After all, the whole "not good at necromancy" comes from most Blood Dragons simply not practicing it, not that they're less capable as a Bloodline.

    Heck, I'd wager the von Carsteins seemed to be the most adept after the Necrarchs and one of the most infamous of their number couldn't even use Necromancy because everything is dependent on individual capability, not bloodline.

    So 7th Edition gave us a metric crap ton of freedom while returning the Bloodlines to being arbitrary dictations that the player chooses.

    8th Edition still had the freedom to mix and match, but most of the powers are geared towards cc so it became harder to actually represent some of the Bloodlines.

    To me, the ideal would be a mixture between 6th and 7th Edition, mostly the freedom of 7th with the sheer number of possibilities of 6th. 30 different Blood Powers is more than enough room for creativity while not going overboard with the 36+x(x being the number Strigoi Blood Powers that get added since the Strigoi didn't exist in 5th) that 5th Edition had.

    Personally I'm kind of "eh" on the stat changes because they seem kind arbitrary but they could act as a balancing factor to make up for the number of choices by forcing some bloodlines to be unable to pick certain choices or have to certain powers in order to make certain customizations.

    Which still kind of disagrees with me since Master of Death has W'Soran and Melkhior using swords and wearing armor into battle and every vampire needs necromancy to raise their armies, although some like Konrad von Carstein and the Red Duke have to use necromancers to make up for their lack of magic.

    So my biggest issues I would say are the Bloodline taxes, the limiting of powers both with and without a Bloodline, and the stat changes since we've seen examples in the background that disagree with them.

    At the very least I'd argue that the Bloodline tax needs to go.
     
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  20. Quinten

    Quinten Grave Guard

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    I'd say the basic system is okay they just need to let you choose two powers (so you can actually have combinations), add one more power for each bloodline, and remove the cap on powers. If someone is spamming a power, and this spam is overpowered, it is because it is not balanced with the rest; imposing an artificial cap on it is not a good solution.
     
  21. Kol Saresk

    Kol Saresk Zombie

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    Yeah, I'd say my main priority would be the bloodline tax because it goes against precedent.

    After that, there shouldn't be a need for independents or them having a cap since von Carsteins were originally designed to be the "jack-of-all-trades" bloodline.

    And then my last priority would be adding more powers for variety.
     
  22. Leithel

    Leithel Grave Guard

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    Mmm I like it as it is, but my priority would be to consider that some of the bloodlines are a 0 take. Beastial bulk, which I'll admit was overpowered in some ways before 1.0, is really just not going to be taken. For 55 points you get an extra wound. Then to counter balance that you have paired weapons but can't take a magic weapon, then you can't take a mount because you're now large infantry and on top of that you have a 40mm base so you can't hide well in a unit of infantry and have a bigger frontage. To be honest, I'm not sure I'd take that for 0 points.

    There are others in there too that are just so much of a waste, that one's just the most disappointing to me as I was going to model a beastial vampire but now it's just not worth bothering.

    But I don't want to turn this into a complaint thread, there have been bad units, items and rules in every edition of every game, and by and large I love the new vampires. I think my next army is going to be a mounted strike force with a voncastein storm caller mounted on a terror with 3 varkolaks with flying for support riding behind mounted black guard and vampire knights. skirmished ghouls for support in core.
     
  23. Kol Saresk

    Kol Saresk Zombie

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    Oh I'm talking about how you have to pay to pick your bloodlines. I fully agree the powers should cost points.

    But with the exception of the von Karstein bloodline, they are all carbon copies of the 6th Edition Bloodlines. Which were free in 6th Edition. That's kind of my point. The precedent is that only in one edition was having a bloodline an actual stat change, and when it was a stat change, it was free.

    The Ancient Blood Powers seem to be relatively balanced in my opinion because they're basically the "Lord only" powers of each Bloodline.

    And I don't want to turn this into a complaint thread either. But, I should still be allowed to offer constructive criticism, which while it can be delivered in a positive tone, its content will still be negative.

    And if the critique is based on well-founded concerns and precedents(or lack thereof), then it should at least be considered. Especially in what is a house-ruling environment.
     
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  24. Mad 'At

    Mad 'At Dumb enough to work Staff Member True Blood

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    @Leithel & @Kol Saresk I wouldn't worry too much about turning this into a complaint thread, this is still a long way from the complaint threads of the 9th Age forums, and even those are very much manageable ;)

    I do agree partly with what has been said about Bloodlines. It is a very tricky subject because opinions on it vary quite a lot. In the abc team we were all in agreement that we wanted bloodlines back (as was the RT member who supported us at the start, it was even he who re-introduced them in the TAC). We were a bit torn on all the details though, as I am sure you can imagine.

    We also had to compromise with the RT about major design, like limiting the vampires to taking a single power. That one in particular I am hoping that we can lift in coming versions, because it is very restrictive. It has also resulted in some quite silly blood powers that have just been stuffed with different abilities to make vampire taking it feel powerful enough. Would be much better if you could reach the same amount of power by taking several different powers.

    One thing we did all pretty much agree on very early on was to keep a pointcost on the bloodlines, and for a very simple reason, balance. I realise that 6th didn't have it and it was quite balanced, but we agreed that making sure the disadvantages and advantages of each bloodlines evened out perfectly. Much easier to make them a little bit on the plus and then putting an appropriate cost on it. It is also easier to adjust if something is found unbalanced, just change the pointcost instead of being forced to redesign. I admit that no pointcost would be neat but I do think it is worth it.
     
  25. Kol Saresk

    Kol Saresk Zombie

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    Fair enough. It'd be like getting a Mark of Chaos in the Chaos armies then, just with bloodlines instead.

    And it explains the limit of "One of a Kind" on the independents.

    Knowing that, my opinion is that I'd still prefer some more variety. But that could just be something to keep in mind for 2.0.
     

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