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Which armies should be in Total War: WHFB

Discussion in 'The Necrarch Workshop' started by HERO, Sep 30, 2014.

  1. Micheal Valdros

    Micheal Valdros Black Knight

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    Depends on when its set. If its during the End times, obviously the TK and VC are must-haves. If not, probably Chaos, Empire, Elves and Orks.
     
  2. Sanai

    Sanai Stylish Deviant True Blood

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    Wait, am I to take it from what you are saying Hero, that you are actually someone within Creative Assembly working on the warhammer game? Or are you a modder working on a warhammer mod?
     
  3. Banat

    Banat Varghulf

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    I had the impression it was the latter :tongue:
     
  4. John Rainbow

    John Rainbow Vargheist

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    I might be wrong but doesn't Hero work for Blizzard?
     
  5. HERO

    HERO Wight King

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    You are correct. I'm just writing up a design doc for fun. We do that sometimes :)
     
  6. GDD

    GDD Grave Guard

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    I would perhaps pair up TK vs VC, with TK as Order. But I'd give TK a hard start in diplomatic relations to other Order factions. And I might give them a trait that gives them a negative modifier to diplomatic relations. Like "Rude" in shogun for example. Except it would be more like "I am talking to a fucking skeleton".

    @HERO I know it's off topic but do you have any game design related books, or must reads for a student? I am studying 3D graphics, and game design, hopefully getting my bachelor this year.

    I'd like to hear your ideas! Warhammer, and total war are my guilty pleasures. I am curious on how you'd do magic.
     
  7. HERO

    HERO Wight King

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    I think a good way to implement magic without making too complicated would be this:

    -Design magic just like skills. For example, in TW, you have skills like Rally and Inspire. Magic should either replace these or appear as a separate bar that allows those with magic to just "cast" spells similar to abilities. This would mean that magic spells would just cast and go on cooldown just like skills.
    -To further simplify things so it plays fluidily in an RTS, there will only be two power levels of magic, a lv.2 caster and a Lv.4. How this will translate to game will simply be a Mage, or Archmage. One will have 2 spells from a particular lore, and the other will have 4.
    -Let's use High Elves for example. If the High Elf player chooses Lore of High Magic on the Mage and the same lore on the Archmage, the Mage will have something like Drain Magic and Fury of Khaine. The Archmage will have Drain Magic, Hand of Glory, Tempest and Fiery Convocation.
    -There should be a cooldown system, or a mana system, whatever that will limit the casting of power spells repeatedly. I'm leaning towards the cooldown system because its more consistent with the current TW system. I'll draw an example: Fiery Convocation is the most powerful spell available to the High Elves lore. The Archmage who casts it will cast a global cooldown on the rest of his spells because he exerted so much powerful casting this powerful spell. Let's say this will put all the AM's spells on cooldown for 1m. Compare this to something like Drain Magic which might take 15s to cooldown. These numbers are simply there to demonstrate the logic behind the fantasy.
    -I don't think there should be a dispel system because stuff like this is always poorly implemented in RTS games. It's better in games that are turn-based or in card games where there's a window where an opponent can respond, but in RTS games where the combat is always fluid, any pauses only hinder the player experience. If you do put it in the game and make it a limited reaction window, this will disappoint more casual gamers where their reactions might not be as fast and they'll feel like they're being alienated against. TW is not like that, so that's why I don't think the dispel mechanic will work well. Besides, players like it when their spells go off and have an effect on the battlefield.
    -The winds of magic thing could be a battlefield setting that can increase or decrease global cooldowns of all magic spells. For a competiive game, winds will be average. Whether or not there will be a miscast mechanic is still up in the air. If there was one, it wouldn't be similar to the WHFB system where you can blow up your own units, but rather that if you cast any other spells during the cooldown of your caster, it will further delay your spells for casting. An example would be your Archmage going hard in a game: You lead with Fiery Convocation and it puts all your spells on cooldown for 1m. You decide that you can't wait anymore because the battle is going poorly and you cast Tempest 17s into your cooldown. Not only are you now locked out of Fiery and Tempest, but you now extend the cooldown for all your spells by +90s (Tempest is normally a 45s cooldown). This is literally a 2x penalty. Maybe even further casts give you a 3x or 4x penalty. Whatever it is, it will allow players to cast through the normal cooldown as player a battlefield option, kinda like overclocking your mage.

    This is all up in the air of course, but that's what I would do right now.

    Nah, I don't have any must-reads. I never went to design school. Just be creative and be familiar with different game systems. If you want, feel free to check out some of my "game design series" articles on my blog:
    http://lkhero.blogspot.com/search/label/game design

    There's one in there about Total War and Warhammer already. Funny.. I wrote that forever ago.
     
  8. GDD

    GDD Grave Guard

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    I have some thoughts on your magic mechanics! I think the way you described it would work for a TW game. I am not writing this in a dismissing manner on your design, it's just some of my thoughts, and constructive criticism.

    While I agree that would be a good way to not over complicate things, I feel there are some issues.

    The first issue is the difference between magics impact on WHFB and TW, and how it is handled. Giving cooldown penalties is an effective way to make a player realize that he has been penalized for his casting. However for the WHFB crowd that bought the game are likely to be disappointed by the way the winds of magic are presented. On the table top magic is extremely powerful, and because of dispelling (I'l get to that later) the powerhouse spells are only seen rarely, with the exception of when a miscast happens. Miscasts are there because it's a traditional dice game, but it is a really great aspect of warhammer. It represents how the winds of magic are unstable, and dangerous to control, establishing magic as a game turning factor. If you really wanted to get that PS off there are consequences for using six dice.

    That brings the question up: How is the impact of battle magic scaled in WHFB vs TW? Does "a small round spell" hit maximum of 10 guys, like in WHFB? Are the units as large as a usual TW game? If so dispelling might not be necessary, but the "game swinging powerful magic" that the WHFB demographic is used to is gone. Magic is now just a way to support your battle a little bit. But is the magic scaled up VS TW's large units? So a magical vortex might kill 40-70 people? Then I absolutely think magic SHOULD be a little more complicated part of the game. And that brings me to dispelling.

    Firstly though. Dwarfs. How would they work? You would be "the hero that dwarfkind needs, but not the one it deserves" if you gave them magic. And they would secretly love you for it, but hate you for messing with their lore.

    If you had these huge devastating spells there needs to be a way to weaken them. Not necessarily stop them. Let's say that when you try to cast a spell the wizard needs to "channel it" to cast it, or do an "incantation". When he does so a magic incantation graphic happens above the wizard casting, and the game might alert the opponent. "My lord! The archmage is channeling a boon!" This gives the opponent a chance to respond. Similarly to silencing a mage in World of Warcraft, or using EMP as Terran on a Protoss caster.

    At this point the design starts to want some sort of currency. Let me explain my thoughts.

    In WHFB dispelling is a limited ability due to the dispeler having fewer dice than the caster. If there was a currency, and you'd decide how much you put into dispelling, the results could vary. Let's say you have a UI element that tells you "how much wind" you have at the time. This fills up, but reaches random points after each casting depletes some of it. (To mimic the winds of magic). Let's say that I want to cast my PS. It costs me a score of 24 to do so. I click my PS button, hold down my space bar, and load the spell with magic. Over committing might make the spell harder to dispel, but it will increase the chance of a miscast. (Meaning I could choose to load the spell with more magic than necessary). My opponent clicks the graphic element over my archmage, and loads magic in to dispel. This barely takes a second to do. He nearly gets as much as me, but it is not enough. My spell comes out at half the intended size. The amount of magic spent also affects the cooldown, of both the spell, and dispelling. Also it may or may not use magic from the same UI element to do both actions.

    Casting values, and how much magic you have could benefit for being presented vaguely. Maybe not even in numbers.

    I don't think my example did my intended design justice, but I hope my points came across at least. But I think that could be a way to introduce WHFB's magic as a new mechanic into the game. It would add an element of figuring out when to cast, and when to dispel, as well as when to over commit, or when it would be too risky.

    I'l go have a read of your blog now ;)
     
  9. HERO

    HERO Wight King

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    Your points did come across well, and that's the most important aspect of design. A lot of people have ideas, but being able to articulate them well and provide examples is what will separate you from the others.

    Now, as for your point. The one thing you have to keep in mind that you're designing for Total War and RTS fans with the Warhammer IP first, and Table Top fans second. That demographic and target audience will control a lot of the design decisions. RTS at its core, while complex internally, is simple externally. The same that I will draw will be something like the High Templar casting Psionic Storm on a bunch of Marines in SC1/2. While in WHFB, this might look like a casting roll, that could be IF, that is also Miscast, then is then triggering a response from your opponent, who chooses to dispel, who then gambles dice, who either succeeds or fails, and then the spell goes off, that complexity is what separates TT design with RTS. The reason for this is simply how you convey time on the battlefield. Because an RTS is well, erm, real-time compared to a table-top game which can be played/argued/debated for ages, the choices are a lot more simple. Does the High Templar cast the spell? Yes. Does he have mana? Yes. Thus, the spell is cast and the effects are reaped.

    To touch briefly upon the Dwarfs for example, they are always known as a magical-resilience race who are also resilient to the effects of Chaos. Translate this into TW and your creative gears can go into overload. What does resilience even mean? To me, if I was to put them in the game, they would be be effected less by Hexes. If Miasma that is cast from my Vampire Lord decreases the weapon skill of a unit of Great Swords that I'm targeting by say, -20, it will only reduce Dwarfs by -10 (50% resilience towards hexes sound right). If Flames of the Phoenix (Fiery Convocation) manages to kill 40 Swordsman out of a unit of 120, it will only kill 20 Dwarfs.

    In short, think of everything from an RTS perspective first using WHFB elements to support the construction of your ideas. Think what will play better in the Total War engine first, and how it will react real-time, and what will be beneficial for the PC player experience. Take Dawn of War, Mark of Chaos, Dawn of War 2 for example and look what tried-and-true translations work. Did Smite (from the Libby in DoW1/2) require casting rolls and psychic tests? No, it just happened, and it played great. The complexity for RTS games comes in the numbers, and translating the fantasy from a table-top into real-time while simultaneously making it a positive player experience that both camps will enjoy. If not enjoy at first, then understand, accept and eventually appreciate.
     
  10. GDD

    GDD Grave Guard

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    I can't not agree with what you are saying there, but I still insist you could make such a system work in an RTS, or TW game. It has to work fast, and be presented simple, to work in real time. I agree with that. My point with talking about the Warhammer demographic boils down to the game doing WHFB magic justice. In game, but also considering the lore. In most RTS games my example would be too slow, but I dare say TW is a slow RTS game.

    When I was talking about "Casting values, and how much magic you have could benefit for being presented vaguely. Maybe not even in numbers." I am talking about wanting to keep the UI simple. Also when I am saying "I want things to barely take a second to do" I am talking about it being easy, and fast to execute.

    I am guilty of thinking backwards here, when I am trying to shoehorn the RTS into Warhammer, and not the other way around. But I insist you could make a mechanic that would work in a TW game.

    As for the execution of your design I am sure it would work. I am just going "what if, and what about?"

    Your last post made me think about buffs, and de-buffs.. They would be incredibly powerful in a TW game. Speaking of Dwarfs, I just realized how powerful siege weapons are in TW. I have never used siege catapults on castles. That would be a waste! They might not need anything else than innate magic resistances.. And the MR from smiths + the MRoGrugni.
     
  11. HERO

    HERO Wight King

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    Feel free to draw up a system for it then. Disagree all you like, but do draw up a proposal and examples when you disagree with someone in design :)

    You can insist all you want about it not being an RTS game first, but you would be wrong. Unless of course, you build the game from the ground up, not make it real time, and not in the total war engine.

    There's a reason why spells work the way they do in RTS games. A lot a lot of RTS games.
     
  12. GDD

    GDD Grave Guard

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    No I'm not disagreeing ;_: Perhaps it was badly worded, but I started my post by saying I cannot disagree with what you are saying, but in spite of that I think the design would work.

    Or I agree with you, but I still think it could work.


    EDIT: "I can't not agree with what you are saying" is Norwinglish... Sorry.
     
  13. Banat

    Banat Varghulf

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    Designing the campaign map elements will make sorting out the RTS battle elements look like childs play =P
     
  14. HERO

    HERO Wight King

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    Which is why I'm primarily focusing on multiplayer haha.
     
  15. Skittelz1981

    Skittelz1981 Varghulf

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    hey hero, great idea.

    My thought on this?
    Every army should be in it.
    everything released bh GW, and all the other ones as well. cathay, nippon, ind, amazons, araby, the italian and spanish ones (dont remember their names), norse, the british weird one that got discontinued in the early 90's.

    Every faction should ultimately be in it in my opinion.
    Just like the Rome: Total War mod; europa barbarorum. which features tons of extra playable factions on a huge map.

    I havent read the entire thread so i dont know what platform you will use, i just hope it will be Rome:Total War. Which is still the best. MedievalII: Total War would also be fine.
    just not all the new ones, Empire, ShogunII, RomeII all have serious flaws in both ai and in running smoothly latergame.

    Warhammer tends to be difficult since it combines both ranged warfare with guns and cannons and heavy melee + crazy tons of magic.

    Im curious to see how that will work out
     
  16. TheTrans

    TheTrans Ghoul

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    There is a medieval 2 mos out there called like call of warhammer, or rage of the dark gods, something to that effect. Anyway it is pretty well done, it is only based around the storm of chaos back in the day and you can play as VC...pretty baller!
     
  17. Draykorinee

    Draykorinee Grave Guard

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    I'd like to see all of them, I really can';t wait to see how this game turns out, RTW was out of this world (2..not so much)
     
  18. Blutsauger

    Blutsauger Vampire Count True Blood

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    Does anyone else remember Dark Omen? There's a simple magic system in that game that could be implemented for W:TW. You get random number of points every minute or so. You can use those points to cast spells. You can also use them to dispell things. Taking that simple principle, it wouldn't be hard to arrange a system whereby certain abilities (spells) become available after you have stockpiled the requisite number of points. Or, you can set any number of available points into a general 'dispell' pool. Whenever an opponent wishes to cast a spell, the effectiveness of the spell is reduced by the number of dispell points you have in your pool.

    So for example, you might have a fireball and flame cage spell. The fireball costs 1 point, and the flame cage costs 3. Every minute, you receive D3 spell points. After three minutes you have four points, so you decide to cast flame cage on an enemy unit, and then fireball it. To your surprise, the enemy has funneled all their points into their dispel pool, so your spells don't work like you wanted them to. The flame cage doesn't go off at all, and the fireball misses the target.

    You could have a dispelled spell either fail completely, or be less effective. You could make every two points put into the dispell pool count as one, thus making it impossible to completely shut down the enemy magic phase. There's lots of potential there for a dispell system, but I think it would need to be automatic. You couldn't just pause the real-time battles indefinitely while one player had to choose whether or not to dispell.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2015

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