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2000 points List + Alternatives

Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
187
#51
RE: 2000 points List + Alternatives Hybrid Lord

Mikael.K said:
Have you tried the comp system yet? I´ve made a couple of lists with it. Another reply that I got is that even with a level 4, I still dont have MotBA and spreading my dice thin through out my magic phase. I can either try the beast spells or spam vanhels/raise. Any take on that? Do you miss your MotBA?
Mikael.K said:
Have you tried the comp system yet? I’ve made a couple of lists with it. Another reply that I got is that even with a level 4, I still don’t have MotBA and spreading my dice thin through out my magic phase. I can either try the beast spells or spam vanhels/raise. Any take on that? Do you miss your MotBA?
Hi Michael,

Yes I have looked at the comp system, and calculated the comp score for my Hybrid list; It was about 84... Compared to you list I get additional reductions on the Periapt, Necromancer and the 2nd rare selection.

It's quit surprising system, and I might not fully agree with some of the slots/reductions. It doesn't surprise me that the GW GG are in the top 3 costly horde (30) units, together with Lion and BloodLetters (with a Herald). It also doesn’t surprise me that infantry units with GW and T4 make up the majority of the other high entries (Bestigors, Hammers). Daemons are really screwed.

I think you made some 'comp' decisions with your lists, leaving the Periapt and back-up necro at home; That's fine by me. In the second list you have given the BSB the IronCuse Icon. I would reconsider giving this item to another WK, and give the BSB the flaming banner; This would seriously increase the punch of your unit. Enemy characters with a 2+ ward vs flaming can be KB by the non-flaming Sword of Kings guy. Against Dragon Princes and the like, you could even consider not to deploy the BSB in the knights.

Using the comp system I do think the ghouls are punished rather hard: Vampires need bigger units (at least 20) to be efficient. We cannot use small units for fleeing, shooting etc. For the points value we need to spent on Core, there’s a rather harsh points reduction. We are now forced to spent 25% on core and our choices are really limited. But on the other hand it’s fine; in reality, ghouls are currently the only core unit that is worth its points and taking 2 units, with a bunker is ok (especially as the bunker doesn’t reduce the points costs).

Now for the last question: yes I miss MotBA. A VC army with motBA is way more powerful then a army without. I therefore also rate the Caster lord higher then the Hybrid, the caster Lord is just better!
The Hybrid lord is a nice change/alternative for the usual (boring after a while) and although it’s only a change in items/powers on the 2 VC characters (and the rest of the army is roughly the same), it is a list that play differently. The dice you have available for the Hybrid are usually spent on spamming VDM. As soon as the dispel is failed/run out, and you have gotten the final VDM off, you could turn to the Lore of Beasts. This lore is especially useful against tough opponents, to boost your lord even further, but you need 3 or 4 dice to do it. SO it will only work if you have a big difference in dice, or the enemy fails early in dispelling 9and loosing the +4 dispell bonus for their lord).
But when you get it off, it’s party time! The main focus is still VDM, and if you get it off the beasts. You might want to consider changing the Charmed shield on the beast vamp in list 1 to power stones?

Good luck!
 

Mikael.K

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
2,643
#52
It's quit surprising system, and I might not fully agree with some of the slots/reductions. It doesn't surprise me that the GW GG are in the top 3 costly horde (30) units, together with Lion and BloodLetters (with a Herald). It also doesn’t surprise me that infantry units with GW and T4 make up the majority of the other high entries (Bestigors, Hammers). Daemons are really screwed.
Indeed, all those things are what you usually find in competative lists and so gets hit hard by comp. It´s not always the T4 and GW, its usually that and having big units of them tham really takes the hit. Still, GG are our best unit and worth the comp they get.

think you made some 'comp' decisions with your lists, leaving the Periapt and back-up necro at home; That's fine by me. In the second list you have given the BSB the IronCuse Icon. I would reconsider giving this item to another WK, and give the BSB the flaming banner; This would seriously increase the punch of your unit. Enemy characters with a 2+ ward vs flaming can be KB by the non-flaming Sword of Kings guy. Against Dragon Princes and the like, you could even consider not to deploy the BSB in the knights.
Good find, I will deffinely make those changes. Very good vs hydras/abombs/other things with regen.

Using the comp system I do think the ghouls are punished rather hard: Vampires need bigger units (at least 20) to be efficient. We cannot use small units for fleeing, shooting etc. For the points value we need to spent on Core, there’s a rather harsh points reduction. We are now forced to spent 25% on core and our choices are really limited. But on the other hand it’s fine; in reality, ghouls are currently the only core unit that is worth its points and taking 2 units, with a bunker is ok (especially as the bunker doesn’t reduce the points costs).
Well, the whole idea of comp is to get friendlier lists and ghouls are our most effective core choice. You can take huge units of skellie with almost no penalty at all. This also leads to something people here in sweden call "comp opting". That means that you take something rather medioker, like skellies in order to get something really hard, like big units of GG/wraiths and still get a pretty good comp. Still, you dont get everything that you find in a more cookie-cutter type list. You have to give some to get some xD. And as you say, we usually have a skellie bunker anyway and it give plus, something that is pretty rare in this compsystem.

You might want to consider changing the Charmed shield on the beast vamp in list 1 to power stones?
I´ll look into this, should be a good trade. I´m also thinking of changing the spirit hosts for a coach. At -15 its pretty cheap. My comp would drop by just one point. I´d exchange the fell bats, but I´d need another 100pts to make the change, something that I dont seem to find in this list.
 
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
187
#53
well, let's regenerate this tread ;-) It's only 6 months ago since my last post in this tread, and I did play several games in the mean time without updating you in this tread. Mainly to test our new White-Dwarf toys, (wraith heroes and the TerrorGeist):

Yesterday afternoon I played another game against a friend of mine, who plays a rather efficient daemon list (build by me).

I decided to give the 'caster-lord without bunker build' another shot.

this list normally conisist of:
* Vamp Lord, +1 lvl, Hellsteed, Acolyte, Avatar of Death (shield), Helm, Periapt, Sword of striking - 485p
* Wight King BSB -225
* 36 Ghouls, ghast -296
* 37 Ghouls, ghast - 304
* 30 GG, FC, barrows - 465
* 1 Terror Gheist - 225
* 1 Coach - 200

Normally, to make it a 2,4 k list, I would add 2x wraith hero and a necromancer with a scroll. Other players prefer to exchange the Gheist or coach with some knights, in order to get a Look Out Sir on the Lord. But I'm curious to see how he will do without the LOS. The list varies from the normal caster list as the lord is normally put inside a bunker (skellies). Now I've put him on a Hellsteed, and the points saved on skellies are now spent on more ghouls.

For this time, I tried my expensive vampire hero build:
* Vampire, fury, other Trickser shard, Quirass, dragon bane gem and sword of battle - 200p
Expensive, but fun to use in the GG (and hopefully killing the herald with flaming attacks). In addition, he should be able to kill a lot of Bloodletters with 4A, higher WS I and wounding on a 2+, forcing re-rolls on successful ward saves. He is also relatively well protected. Mind that he should be deployed inside the regen unit and also benefit from that.

The List I was about to Face:
- Thirster, re-rolls, armour, scroll
- khorne Herald,, BSB -2ld banner, armour, flaming
- khorne Herald, armour
- Tzeentch Herald, lore of Life, scroll
- 29 Letters FCm Icon
- 18 Letters, Mu Ba
- 32 Horrs, Mu Ba, +1 cast banner
- 2*5 Harpies
- 5 Flamers
The table was covered with 3 woods, 1 hill and 1 impassable terrain. The impassable terrain was just outside my deployment zone, roughly in the middle of the table.
I deployed my army on the right flank of the impassable terrain while the daemon army got ‘split’into two parts: His horrors and BloodLetter horde were on the left (and not a direct thread) while the rest of his army was opposite mine. I gave the daemons first turn to benefit from my better deployment. He moved his flamers forward into one of the woods, and deployed them a little-bit diagonal opposite (17inches) one of the ghoul hordes. He wanted to stay out of charge range of my coach which was deployed ion the left of my ghouls, so therefore he had wheeled his flamers a bit. The shots killed about 4 ghouls, while other magic was stopped (his horrors were out of range). The Thirster had moved to the far end of the impassable terrain.

My opponent made a mistake: The flamers where diagonal, so one of the ends (the right) was easily within 16 inches of my grave guard horde…. Yummy yummy! I had to make a decision, move my Terrorogeist to the left of the impassable terrain to target the Thirster, but become subject to magic missiles from the horrors… I chose to go for it, but was disappointed when I only managed to cause 2 wounds (I rolled a 5) of which one was ward-saved. The Van Helse dance was more succesfull. He used 3+2 dice to stop the first two castings and used two scrolls for the 3rd and 4th casting and luckily I managed to roll a 3+ on my fifth attempt with my last die. I heard him grumbling on how nasty my +2 power dice are, while he is currently painting up a new Slann mage… The flamers all died in combat due to KBs, and my GG reformed to receive a frontal charge from the 18 letters which included the 2 heralds) and Thirster!

In order to have my Lord within VDM and helm range of my GG, I had move the lord out of the ghouls onto my right flank, behind the wood, my GG were now in. Unfortunately I then made a mistake myself with the placement of my Lord, just 1mm within LOS of his furies. Not that I fear the furies, but I hate not being able to use my helm! So the letters and Thirster charged my GG and the furies my lord.

I then again realized I was ‘sloppy’ when I had reformed my GG, it was the vampire who I had put on the far end, and he was only in combat with the Thirster (not with letters… shit, T6!). I couldn’t challenge the heralds with my vampire as either the non-flaming helard or the thirster would accept. The only thing I could do, was try to have some models around after the first round and kill the flaming attacks using my return attacks to stay alive in the 2nd round. He killed a lot (about 12-13?) and I caused 2 wounds on the hirster (thanks to re-rolls of his ward, but my vampire did nothing), put a wound on both heralds (his flaming BSB took 4 of which he saved 3 on 6+ As and 5+ ward ouch) and I guess I killed 4 more letters. I lost another 7 or 8 models and had only 6 + 2 characters remaining. My lord killed 2 furies but he stayed in place as his Thirster was in range. His magic had caused only 1 or 2 wounds on the Terror Gheist.

In my turn it was time to restore the ranks. The 2nd unit of furies was used a turn breaker and deployed between my ghouls and his thirster. The ghouls charged in anyways. Now it was time to restore my ranks of my GG. Summon Horde and several ION later, I only managed to restore 8. Reason was he managed to dispel my Horde spell with less dispel bonus and less dice... lucky git! ;-)
That was not enough… and after combat only 4 models remained (command + BSB). But luckily this meant that in his turn, his Thirster and letters were still locked in combat. My 2nd ghoul horde charged the furies locking my lord, and the reformed to threaten the letters. The other ghoul horde killed the blocking furies and were now threatening the Thirster. He killed the last GG and my bsb and then got charged by both hordes. I managed to kill his letters (his BSB remained on 1 wound) and got really lucky 9due to VDM) when my ghouls managed 6 poisoned wound on the Thirster… he failed to save 2 and the big beast was slain!

His big letter horde charged into the ghouls who had killed the Thirster, but due to terrain, only 7 models of him were engaged. The 22 attacks killed about 7 (these hordes of letters are less scary when there’s no herald inside!) and my return attacks decimated his horde.
His Herald of Tzeentch got killed when it moved out of the unit to get in range to my troops, and I countered that by landing my Terror Gheist next to him and using my scream.

Did you know, you do not get a LOS for a unit within 3’ against magic?

We called it a day, when all he had left was his Horrors. All I lost were my GG, BSB and Vampire hero.

A rather successful first attempt without a bunker.
 
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