4e Faction Focus: Soulblight Gravelords

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soulblight article looks alright. No mechanics for bloodlines expected but sad. faction traits alright, mostly the expected stuff changed in expected ways. gravesites gone. battle formations for skeletons, zombies, vampires, and necromancers seems about right, if far from inspired. The skeleton ability requires outnumbering to trigger, which really has my fingers crossed that skeletons jump up to unit size 20 to match their box. Unfortunately it also requires charging, and skeleton & grave guard units are both slow enough to make that iffy, while black knights are fast enough to reliably get to charge, but are unlikely to outnumber their opponents. Bleh, skeleton formation looking kind of iffy.

Only one spell lore is unfortunate, I was sure vamps would be one of the few factions to get two. And from the sample spell this lore is drawing more from the terrible vampire lore and less from the good necromancer lore. That's really unfortunate. I'm not a fan of the unlimited spell.

Radukar looks beaty but not too much else, I miss his ability to summon wolves. Lauka looks good, though whether she's playable will depend not just on points but on how she compares to the generic vengorian. Bloodknights look fantastic as dedicated anti-infantry, though without no ability to retreat and charge they're going to lose a lot of their impact after the first hit, and if they get charged by a non-infantry unit they'll have a hard time hitting back.

Vargheists on the other hand look terrible. they either needed a much better melee profile or for their teleport ability to be any movement phase instead of just your movement phase. As is... I don't know, if they're cheap enough maybe you take one unit just to force your opponent to babysit their objectives? Then again, Vargheists are already kind of iffy, so if they stay bad or even get worse it's not exactly a huge loss compared to now, just a missed opportunity, and the soulblight range is more than deep enough to weather a few dud units.

My big question about skeletons (are they a unit of 10, or is their unit size increasing to 20 to match their box size?) wasn't answered, and my other big question (do they keep some version of their auto-healing ability) was only answered for their spearhead entry.

All in all, the spite gourds focus looks ok to me. I'm not unhappy with it, but there's nothing here that excites me the way obr did with their faction traits and vokmortian, or nighthaunt did with reikenor or dreadblade harrows. I feel kind of like I did with FEC - this feels like the same already strong army, just a little streamlined and toned town in ways that I've come to expect from 4e - not bad, but not exciting, since all of the good bits on display were slightly less good versions of the good stuff we already have. Except the FEC focus still had Ushoran, and didn't have anything disappointed me like vile transference or vargheists.

So yeah, probably the least exciting undead faction focus, but I can't call it bad or disappointing really. Even if the traits are lesser versions of current abilities, they're still /good/, lauka and blood knights look good, radukar doesn't look bad. I'll be playing Soulblight for the first chunk of 4e at least just because that's what I have most painted, and I'm not coming out of this faction focus feeling bad about that at all.
 
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Something I forgot to mention: one of my (less popular) wishes for SBGL, that cursed city stuff gets kicked to legends, does NOT seem to be happening. Radubeast's scroll specifically mentions units of Vykos Blood-Borne, and Raduwolf, his Nightguard, and Gorslav are all shown in the above army shot.
 
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soulblight article looks alright. No mechanics for bloodlines expected but sad. faction traits alright, mostly the expected stuff changed in expected ways. gravesites gone. battle formations for skeletons, zombies, vampires, and necromancers seems about right, if far from inspired. The skeleton ability requires outnumbering to trigger, which really has my fingers crossed that skeletons jump up to unit size 20 to match their box. Unfortunately it also requires charging, and skeleton & grave guard units are both slow enough to make that iffy, while black knights are fast enough to reliably get to charge, but are unlikely to outnumber their opponents. Bleh, skeleton formation looking kind of iffy.

Only one spell lore is unfortunate, I was sure vamps would be one of the few factions to get two. And from the sample spell this lore is drawing more from the terrible vampire lore and less from the good necromancer lore. That's really unfortunate. I'm not a fan of the unlimited spell.

Radukar looks beaty but not too much else, I miss his ability to summon wolves. Lauka looks good, though whether she's playable will depend not just on points but on how she compares to the generic vengorian. Bloodknights look fantastic as dedicated anti-infantry, though without no ability to retreat and charge they're going to lose a lot of their impact after the first hit, and if they get charged by a non-infantry unit they'll have a hard time hitting back.

Vargheists on the other hand look terrible. they either needed a much better melee profile or for their teleport ability to be any movement phase instead of just your movement phase. As is... I don't know, if they're cheap enough maybe you take one unit just to force your opponent to babysit their objectives? Then again, Vargheists are already kind of iffy, so if they stay bad or even get worse it's not exactly a huge loss compared to now, just a missed opportunity, and the soulblight range is more than deep enough to weather a few dud units.

My big question about skeletons (are they a unit of 10, or is their unit size increasing to 20 to match their box size?) wasn't answered, and my other big question (do they keep some version of their auto-healing ability) was only answered for their spearhead entry.

All in all, the spite gourds focus looks ok to me. I'm not unhappy with it, but there's nothing here that excites me the way obr did with their faction traits and vokmortian, or nighthaunt did with reikenor or dreadblade harrows. I feel kind of like I did with FEC - this feels like the same already strong army, just a little streamlined and toned town in ways that I've come to expect from 4e - not bad, but not exciting, since all of the good bits on display were slightly less good versions of the good stuff we already have. Except the FEC focus still had Ushoran, and didn't have anything disappointed me like vile transference or vargheists.

So yeah, probably the least exciting undead faction focus, but I can't call it bad or disappointing really. Even if the traits are lesser versions of current abilities, they're still /good/, lauka and blood knights look good, radukar doesn't look bad. I'll be playing Soulblight for the first chunk of 4e at least just because that's what I have most painted, and I'm not coming out of this faction focus feeling bad about that at all.
I have to say I was very disappointed with the faction focus, obviously we don’t have the full picture but blood knights seem terrible and as you say everything just seems worse than it’s 3rd Ed counterpart. For the record I think blood knights are reasonably good if slightly over costed currently. Nothing has made me feel I need to preorder the core book and faction cards on release, which is a shame as up until today I was going to do just that. Now I may wait until we have a proper battletome or maybe skip the edition entirely. :(
 
Vhargheists seem terrible you mean? Because that I agree with. Blood Knights actually look pretty good to me. specialized - they want to be charging, and they want to be charging infantry specifically - but very good in that role.

Otherwise, I'm really surprised to hear negative sentaments about this one. Like, yeah, it's not exciting, because the good stuff isn't new, it's just streamlined and 4eified versions of our current stuff. But it's still good stuff, within the context of what we've seen of 4e so far. 3 points of healing for 3 different units each of our hero phases, d3 healing for every vampire unit at the end of any turn they fought in combat, half a unit back for any deathrattle or deadwalkers for a command point, which, yeah, is more costly in 4e, but also it's not dependent on a die roll like now. That's a lot of recursion in the faction rules alone, especially in the context of 4e.

Unless people are only looking at this faction focus, and comparing it directly to 3e rules, without considering all the other faction focus articles we've seen so far? If that's so, you're missing some pretty critical context. 4e is a very different beast from 3e, or at least the indexes are, I'm holding onto hope that the actual battletomes are allowed an increase in complexity, if hopefully not in power.
 
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Vhargheists seem terrible you mean? Because that I agree with. Blood Knights actually look pretty good to me. specialized - they want to be charging, and they want to be charging infantry specifically - but very good in that role.

Otherwise, I'm really surprised to hear negative sentaments about this one. Like, yeah, it's not exciting, because the good stuff isn't new, it's just streamlined and 4eified versions of our current stuff. But it's still good stuff, within the context of what we've seen of 4e so far. 3 points of healing for 3 different units each of our hero phases, d3 healing for every vampire unit at the end of any turn they fought in combat, half a unit back for any deathrattle or deadwalkers for a command point, which, yeah, is more costly in 4e, but also it's not dependent on a die roll like now. That's a lot of recursion in the faction rules alone, especially in the context of 4e.

Unless people are only looking at this faction focus, and comparing it directly to 3e rules, without considering all the other faction focus articles we've seen so far? If that's so, you're missing some pretty critical context. 4e is a very different beast from 3e, or at least the indexes are, I'm holding onto hope that the actual battletomes are allowed an increase in complexity, if hopefully not in power.
I’ll reread it over the weekend and have watched honest wargamers take on it. Just feels very off to me as it stands.
 
As I posted over on tga, I especially have to push back on the idea that blood knights look bad here. They've honestly barely changed at all, less so than I would have expected, especially when you consider that armor saves across the board in 4e are likely to be lower due to generally reduced availability of buffs to armor. Most of the time you should be looking at the same saves as now against non infantry, or better against infantry. riders of ruin is slightly downgraded, but it wasn't where most of their damage is coming from, and it's nowhere near the nerf it already got in 3e when they took away the ability to effectively retreat & charge.

On the subject of mobility, the +2" movement speed is a notable and unexpected improvement to them.
 
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I guess, I’m probably just not overly keen on everything being “nichehammer” now.

I’m coming to the conclusion 4th might not be for me as a whole. One of my biggest gripes since the inception of AoS is lack of customization compared to oldhammer and 4th seems to be doubling down on that.
 
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Yeah, I feel the same. Nothing about this new edition seems better, mostly just the same or changed for the sake of change. I'm probably going to stick with 3e or more likely just not play AoS unless friends bring it up first and stick to The Old World for now.
 
I will admit that the chaos knights in the slaves to darkness preview do make blood knights look a lot more disappointing by comparison. :p
It just feels like since wfb went bang they’ve lost sight of what vampires and arguably the wider army should be. Unless there’s some big changes based on the blood knights warscroll they aren’t better than chaos worshipping humans and only slightly better than cities of sigmar humans.

Others said it last edition before our tome came out but I’d happily pay double what the points were previously for a vl to have something more akin to what we used too.
Same with blood knights; in wfb I think a unit of 5 was 425 points (with flag of blood keep and and 25p magic item on the Kastellan) I happily paid that because they wrecked almost anything. Just seems vampires are almost no stronger really than a standard human yet again unless they are mounted on a dread abysal or zombie dragon or are Radukar.
 
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Chaos warriors/knights aren't just chaos worshiping humans, though. They weren't in fantasy, but they ~especially~ aren't in AoS. Marauders/cultists/darkoath are chaos worshipping humans - and blood knights are way toughter/deadlier than they are. Chaos warriors though aren't just Marauders in full plate, they're the champions of the dark gods, blessed and empowered by what is at least supposed to still be the ascendant divine power within the mortal realms. Like chaos marines in 40k.

Blood knights should be more or less on par with them, so I am a bit annoyed by the difference between new chaos knights and blood knights, but still.

As for the heroes thing, that just isn't and hasn't and won't be what aos is about. AoS foot heroes lead and support their troops, the troops aren't just ablative wounds for heroes who outfight entire enemy units on their own. Heroes who are stand alone hammers are still a thing, but they're big heroes. Fitting with that, Vampire Lords can and have been among those heroes in AoS that can wreck units on their own, but only when they're riding a zombie dragon. Or when they just are a monster themselves, as with radukar or lauka vai, both of which got a nice boost in the preview, if admittedly nothing like Yndrasta saw.


That's all preference stuff though, not a right wrong thing, so I'm really not trying to argue or disagree with your feeling there. And sadly the Old World is a bit less of an out to your complaint there. Vampire Counts are bad dudes in that game, but nowhere near as strong as Vampire Lords were in past versions of Warhammer Fantasy. And, like in AoS, if you really want a vampire to wreck face then the best way to do that is to put them on a zombie dragon.
 
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Chaos warriors/knights aren't just chaos worshiping humans, though. They weren't in fantasy, but they ~especially~ aren't in AoS. Marauders/cultists/darkoath are chaos worshipping humans - and blood knights are way toughter/deadlier than they are. Chaos warriors though aren't just Marauders in full plate, they're the champions of the dark gods, blessed and empowered by what is at least supposed to still be the ascendant divine power within the mortal realms. Like chaos marines in 40k.

Blood knights should be more or less on par with them, so I am a bit annoyed by the difference between new chaos knights and blood knights, but still.

As for the heroes thing, that just isn't and hasn't and won't be what aos is about. AoS foot heroes lead and support their troops, the troops aren't just ablative wounds for heroes who outfight entire enemy units on their own. Heroes who are stand alone hammers are still a thing, but they're big heroes. Fitting with that, Vampire Lords can and have been among those heroes in AoS that can wreck units on their own, but only when they're riding a zombie dragon. Or when they just are a monster themselves, as with radukar or lauka vai, both of which got a nice boost in the preview, if admittedly nothing like Yndrasta saw.


That's all preference stuff though, not a right wrong thing, so I'm really not trying to argue or disagree with your feeling there. And sadly the Old World is a bit less of an out to your complaint there. Vampire Counts are bad dudes in that game, but nowhere near as strong as Vampire Lords were in past versions of Warhammer Fantasy. And, like in AoS, if you really want a vampire to wreck face then the best way to do that is to put them on a zombie dragon.
I agree you entirely, just having a hard time that the army has changed way more than I would like. Although I was probably in a minority of people that thought the legions of Nagash book and 1.5/ 2nd Ed was great.
 
I loved legions of nagash, I guess I just don't see a huge amount of daylight between the faction rules of LoN and that of the Soulblight Gravelords rules that followed, either the 2e or 3e battletomes or the preview of the index. The battlefield rolls of the units in the faction have stayed more or less the same, the core mechanical identity built around recursion has remained even as recursion itself has been toned down across the game from edition to edition. IMO the main thing that's changed isn't the faction rules, but the faction lore - going from Nagash's core nihilist apocalypse faction, a role now championed by OBR, basically all the way back to the Vampire Counts, with fractious courts of vampire aristocrats divided by back stabbing and infighting ruling over hoards lesser undead that they can assert their dominion over, complete even with distinct bloodlines. That's a shift that to my mind fit well with the advancing narrative of 2e (sadly something we didn't really see in 3e, but I'm willing to cut GW some slack there due to covid & such), and as much as I like Nagash's apocalyptic ambition and scope, I love the intrigue and self-defeating political shenanigans of the vampires, and I like that they have a faction to themselves to make room for it.

Sadly the bloodline rules are lost in the coming index to the standardization of subfaction rules and their de-coupling from subfactions in the lore - a decision I don't agree with but that I understand the reasoning behind. It's also another design sensibility thing that swings back and forth in GW games so I'm willing to wait it out so long as my army still plays ok on the table - something that's easier to satisfy me on since I collect all the undead factions. If Soulblight does end up sucking in a bad way then the devs still have three other chances to satisfy me, a privilege I know doesn't apply to everybody.

At least the AoS team seems to be taking pains to emphasize that the Soulblight Dynasties are still a key part of their lore, even if they don't have in game mechanics attached currently.

Then again, Chaos still get their marks and IMO soulblight could and should have done something similar - a single 'soulblight dynasties' faction traits with a set of 5 different minor traits affecting vampire units. Our faction traits card is already a bit overstuffed, but they could have made room by making invocation the signature spell of the lore, as in old times, which I would have preferred over the life drain regardless. They probably also would have needed to either leave 'the hunger' on the warscrolls of vampire units or delete the last paragraph of endless legions. Honestly, I'd be inclined to drop that bit anyway. The ability is less good without that part, but would still very good anyway, so it probably isn't worth the extra paragraph of complications and conditions.

But how I would have done things is neither here nor there.

As is, to me the gravelords, including the index preview, are still fundamentally the same faction of weak, fragile, and slow hoards of undead chaff who compensate for their weakness with force-multiplying support heroes, their fragility with a variety of recursion mechanics, and their slowness with access to deployment shenanigans plus a handful of speedy exceptions, with a sprinkling of hammer units (some glass, some steel) to tip the balance of the grindy battles of attrition that slow recursive hoards of chaff naturally lend themselves to. In this sense they are very little changed from legions of nagash, or, going back even further, the Vampire Counts compendium pdf. Honestly, this is how I saw the faction even back in the old Warhammer Fantasy days, red fury vampire lords chewing through entire units at a time or Mannfred blasting purple suns not withstanding. IMO remarkable overall continuity of faction rules & play style all things considered, especially accross major changes & even a complete re-write of the underlying core rule system. A continuity well reflected in their updated model range, most of which still looks equally at home in the Old World as it does in AoS.
 
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As someone who took all of 3rd ed off, I know what you mean. It feels like 9th-10th ed 40k as far as the "look" but after finishing the honest wargamer review (listened to it while I did work orders) I think I have an overall positive outlook from how I remember stuff. I do miss the Legion/Dynasties and hope they return as detachments for the actual book/tome.

Kastelai was my preference and it looks like to run something similar now would be Bacchanal of Blood - Prince Vhordrai with 1-2 units of Blood Knights and then go from there your preference of additional vampires or chaff. He sort of gives the BK similar-ish abilities IIRC and he himself looks like a powerhouse.

Alternatively a Mannfred legion of night-esque build with him, a big brick of grave guard and a necromancer as the core looks like it will hit like a truck

I'm also liking the look of combat manipulation with our plethora of strike first/last abilities, and manifestations as well as our spell lore look solid enough although I will need to reread some of them a few times.
 
I recommend that we "calm thy titties". This is nothing but an index reset for AoS 4.0. Once we get our official Battletome, then we can pass informed judgements.
 
I'm still working on painting my spearhead. The Elden Ring DLC derailed my hobby progress hard, but now that I've put kindly Miquella and his promised consort in the ground, I should hopefully be able to get back on track? Maybe? I'm not super feeling it, but we'll see.

Once I get the spearhead done I'll work on expanding up to 2k - focusing on stuff I already have painted more than on optimization. Here's the current hypothetical list for that:

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (general, Shard of Night)
  • 5 Blood Knights
  • 3 Vargheists
  • 3 Vyrkos Bloodborn
  • 10 Dire Wolves
Vampire Lord (Unhinged Rampager, to threaten cheeky teleport charges)
  • 20 Deathrattle Skeletons
  • 40 Deadwalker Zombies
  • Vargskyr
Battle Formation: Bacchanal of Blood
Spell Lore: Lore of Undeath
Manifestation Lore: Morbid Conjurations
Points: 1920 / 2000

There's enough points left over to trade the VLoZD for Vhordrai, which would Certainly be better, but this is a more casual fluffy thing, and I do get the underpoint bonus plus some insurance against shooting this way so it's not just ~objectively~ worse. The 80 point buffer also gives me some insurance against any points hikes in the expected early balance patch. Soulbight is performing above the target zone in early events, albeit not by nearly as much as nighthaunt, so I wouldn't be at all suprised to see a few increases in the next month or so.

This gets me up to a playable - if admittedly not optimal - point value pretty quickly. Not counting the handful of models I already have to finish for the spearhead I'll only have to paint 20 more zombies, though there will be some assorted touch-ups on the rest. Oh, and the manifestations, but I'm saving them for last as at this point I half expect the entire manifestation rules module to be removed outright, with a completely rewritten version introduced at some point in the future.

After that I'd like to get at least one solid piece of terrain and a display board painted, then I can move onto OBR.
 

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