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A Fluffy Hypothetical.

ironlord

Black Knight
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Oct 11, 2008
Messages
397
#1
[Im not sure if this is in the right area, but then again, even if I am sure I'm never right...]

Hi guys, I was pondering the meaning of life (on the john of course) when I decided to can those thoughts and focus on the more important, "What would happen if GW pushed the timeline forward in the warhammer world?"
Who would rise to power? What artifacts of great power would be uncovered or lost to the wilds?
Oh yeah and the most important question, who would get PWNED!!!!!!!!?

Since I am a major fluff bunny I am always interested in the stories that GW churns out (you people have NO idea how close I was to buying the audiobook about Colonel Straken from the Catachen Imperial Guard!) But despite the story quality it seems that GW are happy to let their universes stagnante in the same time so that roughly every race is about equal and it could go any way, while giving the players a few hundred years to mess around in to ensure they can expand as much as possible on the "current" era to add variety too the game. That is the main reason that it remains hypothertical, it would never happen, not even if I managed too sneak into the GW HQ and scribble a note into the lead developers books saying "advance the plot of everything".

So if the timeline were to advance by a few hundred years, what would happen?
 

Sanai

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#2
Actually, they have advanced the plot of 40k recently. They advanced it from the age of imperium to the time of ending.
Its looking like the emperor will die in a few thousand years (or less) as his golden throne has an irreperable fault in it.
Heres what I feel are the probable outcomes of that
1# Civil war is a definite. The imperium will be split asunder.
2# The imperium will be overrun, as will most of the galaxy, as the emperor no longer holds back the forces of chaos with his psychic might
3# The emperor is reborn, as in avatar theory (the theory held by some inquisitorial factions that the emperor will one day inhabit a new body, an avatar and will rule the imperium once again)
4# The emperors spirit is unchained by his bodies death, and he now fights the chaos gods more freely in the warp.

Dont know so much about fantasy, sorry.
 

Zanos

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#3
Armies/races to die out - the Tau, they're far too young and naive to survive, the Eldar are too few and will eventually die out, and the Imperium will, of course, break down in a civil war and be wiped out.
 

uga bug

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302
#4
ironlord said:
So if the timeline were to advance by a few hundred years, what would happen?
In 40k the tyranids would devour the galaxy and everythign in it-consumnig the tau for suer over a few hundred years.

In fantasy the Empire should fall...with so many forces besieging it theres can only be so many fertile men left to repopulate the Empre-eventually they will all be killed fighting the Empries enemies, or each other!
 

Sanai

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#5
The Imperium will not fall, the emperor will be reborn as the star child, and wtfpwn everyone.
 

Dreadgrass

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#6
well, I'm more into the fantasy backstory, so I'd have to say, in the old world at least (can't speak for Cathay etc.) that either Daemons or Skaven or Undead seen best poised to take over,

Daemons because there's so many and theres no wizard in existance that can permanently plug the rifts.

Skaven because there's so damn many and they breed so prolifically, plus they bend the powers of Chaos to their whim.

and Undead as, well, all it takes is 1 mage with some necromatic ability to get it going... they're a team that will never truly go away unless daemons completely overrun the world as there'll always be someone after eternal-life or more power, or both lol
 

Zephyr

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#7
In 40K the Imperium will torn asunder and only a few bastions of defenders will be left; some SM chapters refusing to die and the Mechanicus still holding control over their Forge Worlds but otherwise staying put.

In Warhammer I also see the Empire breaking up into factions; each Province will probably become its own small country; warring with others, some completely wiped out and/or overrun with Greenskins, Chaos, Skaven, Undead or whatever. I think Kislev will also disappear in the end.
What I don't know is which big bad would dominate in the end.
I love Dark Elves but I think they will slowly die out in a drawn out war with their, also almost extinct, other cousins the High Elves and battle with Chaos to their North.
Wood Elves will probably either get overrun by Beastmen or make a firm alliance with Bretonnia and go on as one kingdom. I think the latter option is the only viable way for them both to survive although I can see the peasantry going all communist on their nobles...

Dwarfs and Lizardmen are just too few to really matter. They are strong but they will ultimately get overwhelmed.
I see a glorious future for my beloved Skaven and Undead, obviously they will fight eachother for years to come but I think (if the Skaven do not mindlessly use up all resources) they will be major players in the new Empire.
Chaos will be following shortly however and after all the good guys are either wiped out or just too few left and scattered it will soon envelop the whole world. What that would mean for the Ratmen and Undead depends on how the factions deal with one another and in the past they've all been both allies and enemies.
 

Swissdictator

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#8
The problem in fantasy is I see the "evil races" fighting themselves too much. One of the greatest exterminators of Beastmen is probably the Greenskin, and vice versa. Greenskins are also good at keeping themselves in check. Similar story with the Skaven (especially fighting themselves and the undead). Chaos is easily fractured with the different gods, and it is only a matter of time before Archaon bites it... and that will see Chaos collapse in upon itself for a couple centuries at least.

The Empire is reaching a point where a Napoleon or Bismark type figure will rise and probably finally solidify a sense of nationalism, as that's what they are approaching culturally. With industrial technology, true nationalism will be achieved most likely. They may have skirmishes with Bretonnia, but I see them becoming friendlier in the future much like Britain and France eventually did... especially if the Empire's new era gives greater understanding of the threats around them.

I do see the Wood Elves and Bretonnians having more of a working relationship in the future. Perhaps not unity, but they already have the equivalent of a non-aggression pact. They're fast approaching an alliance.

The Dark Elves greatest problem in ever taking Ulthuan is they're to busy with other affairs: raiding Lustria and elsewhere, internal strife and conflict. They're not likely to take over any time soon and are breeding no faster than the High Elves. That's an eternal struggle, and the High Elves have the advantage of amazing interior lines so they can defend with less forces essentially. Defending their home is not hard to achieve, especially if they maintain good look outs. It's easy enough where they can lend some support against the forces of Chaos.

The Tomb Kings have the advantage of never really going away and, despite clashes with a lot of people (mostly defending their territory) and although Settra is slightly expansionist... I don't see them having any love for Chaos (quite the opposite I suspect), as the Chaos are probably at least as guilty of raiding their lands as anyone else. While they'll probably never be on friendly terms with the Empire, they benefit from the stalemate of Old World vs Chaos... as Chaos is probably the one thing that could truly destroy them.

The Vampire Counts/other undead have their owns conflicts and divisions that keep them relatively in check, Mannfred doesn't have the charisma Vlad did so he would have a much harder time reuniting (a second time).

Ogres, well, Ogres are hungry. Short of total overwhelming the world in a tide of Chaos, Skaven, or Undead they'll probably keep on doing their thing thing... hiring themselves out as mercenaries.

Lizards, again, with the smaller territory they have an easier time holding out at this point probably. They've still got at least a millenia or two left I think. I suspect they can still shift some weight around...
 

ironlord

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Oct 11, 2008
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397
#9
Thats a fairly comprehensive list Swissdicator and it makes sense, but no one gets wiped out...
Who do you think would be the first to go?
My vote would be for Ogres.
Maybe individual ogres would survive, but I think that the "Ogre Kingdoms" could be destroyed, maybe through the corrupting influence of chaos (mutant ogres!) or maybe they could be badly hurt in a war. It would give GW an excuse too get rid of the Ogre Kingdoms book and usher in something new.

Congratulations to everyone in the thread for not resorting to doomsaying about GW's marketing plans like other forums I have posted this on.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#10
Nagash would finally get back his claw and crown at regain his full power, then go on to beat the snot out of everyone.........what? I can hope can't I?

I think the dwarves don't have too long left in them. The I do still have a soft spot for the moaning old gits, everything I have read suggests they are dying out quite fast, especially as their holds are major targets for O&G and Skaven, and they don't seem to have a fast reproductive cycle. If the fluff continued on its current path I would see them dying out first.
 

Onikaigo

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#11
And that makes me incredibly sad, DoN. There are very few constants in our world, make believe or realistic. In our real lives, Taxes, breathing, dying and some other things I can't mention directly are guarantees in life. In Warhammer there's War, undead plagues, skaven hellholes, and Dwarves standing in the face of everything that comes their way and smacking it down. What would Warhammer be without Dwarves? Boring, I say!


But honestly, I'd go against Ogres going out first. They have the most ability to go nomad and move if their territory is invaded by something they can't beat. If Archaon comes and knocks three or four tyrants to the ground in one go, the rest would get the hint and clear out. An Ogre Migration of that magnitude would destroy entire sections of the world, and they'd honestly probably still live through it.

I see Dwarves dying out, as sad as it makes me. No race can survive under the attentions of so many evil races and survive. OnG, Skaven, and Chaos are all gunning for the stunties (Chaos by opportunity, but the other two as a matter of principal). I see their holds being overrun, or....

If GW wants to keep them in the game, they can have some long lost Dwarven Civilization that's from X continent break through the Goblins and scatter them again, and come to the aid of the stunties. Surely the warhammer world isn't just the one continent we're on.

After Dwarves, if/when they die out, i'd see the Empire fracture. They're too loosely allied at the moment, it'd take a single lit political match and the entire structure would topple. Unless, as previously mentioned, they get some sort of figurehead to inspire the Czar like fanatical patriotism. Then they'd prolly clear out most of the critters that annoyed them and have an age of prosperity.


But for damn sure Skaven, OnG, Beastmen, General undead, and Chaos aren't going to die. Their reproduction rate is simply too high, coupled with the fact that they're the bad guys. Bad guys never die out, they always come back later.

It'd be nice to see some major flux in the GW worlds though. Static timelines annoy me.
 

Sanai

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#12
Dwarves are a definite loss. Not a race I would be too cut up about dying out.
The Lizardmen will probably be overrun by skaven
The empire will probably have a civil war and then the skaven, orcs, chaos, vampires, beastmen, etc will all see that as their chance to invade. The empire then degenerates into a huge apocalyptic warzone.
The ogres should do fine. They are the biggest, toughest, hungriest species. Top of the food chain. Also, they are often mercenaries, and everyone needs mercenaries.
I can easily see Tilea, Estalia and the border princes being completely overrun by various evil factions.
As the world descends into anarchy, chaos will grow more powerful, and a potential alliance between the dark elves and a chaos everchosen will probably result in the ruin of ulthuan, and of the stone circles there. That would result in Ulthuan becoming a new, smaller chaos waste, and a base for the new, and final everchosen. Then Sigmar reincarnates again (like valten) and reunites the last of the armies of the empire, and leading the remnants of empire, bretonian, elvish and dwarvish refugees, he has a awesome last stand against chaos, which is devouring the old world en mass. Nagash and the Council of Thirteen have both revealed themselves also, sweeping across the old world, and fighting against everyone. The last army of Sigmar heroicly fights, aided now by the lizardmen who have teleported over en mass to try and save the world. This is to no avail, as the chaos wastes are now overtaking parts of the old world, having spread rapidly out of control. The light fades, and the world is a dark and terrible place, where daemons and undead fight eternally, and even the skaven are struggling to survive.
 

ironlord

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Oct 11, 2008
Messages
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#13
Wow there is no love for the beardy folk here at all!
I think I should bring in the folks from The Herdstone and we can have a big arguement about the fate of the dwarves haha.

Oh yeah I've been posting this question on all the forums im on and it is getting a few responces.
Check out bugmans, the herdstone and dogs of war online for the other threads and see what they have too say about the fluff.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#14
You hussy! Cheating on us with the Herdstone, even saying the same things to them. I thought this was special *runs of crying eyes out, waving arms in the air hysterically*

I do agree with one sentiment. I would love it if the next edition show the dwarves kicking some arse, and claiming some of their holds back such as Karak Eight Peaks. The poor stunties seemed to get picked on in the fluff, and it's about time they got some of their empire back.
 

Ghouly

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#15
A few hundred years down the line only Chaos, Skaven, Greenskins and Undead will be left to duke it out
 

Aegis

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#16
You are assuming someone will be able to beat back nagash again when he decides to quit being emo and leave his fortress. =p
 

Sanai

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#17
Nagash is in a permanent state of emoness. He is upset about having no skin on his wrists to cut.
 

Swissdictator

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#18
I can see the Dwarfs, especially as they get closer to the end, merging with the Empire more and more falling back on the historical ties the two have. There already plenty living in the Empire. This would probably strengthen the Empire too.

I just don't see the Empire splitting up, but the opposite. Someone will come along and unite them, be it a Garibaldi figure (like with Italy), Bismark (Germany), Qin Shi Huang (China) or countless others. Industrial technology goes a long ways to enabling these kinds of people, and the sense of Nationalism. With more advanced tech, comes easier and (in time safer due to escort capabilities) travel over longer distances. This ties these people together.
 
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#19
Disciple of Nagash said:
You hussy! Cheating on us with the Herdstone, even saying the same things to them. I thought this was special *runs of crying eyes out, waving arms in the air hysterically*

I do agree with one sentiment. I would love it if the next edition show the dwarves kicking some arse, and claiming some of their holds back such as Karak Eight Peaks. The poor stunties seemed to get picked on in the fluff, and it's about time they got some of their empire back.
This i hinted at in their latest Army Book. The High King and other like minded Kings and Rune Smiths are taking the fight to their enemies and reclaiming some fallen holds and finding lost runes and artifacts. I couldn't see them dying out. They are too stubborn for that.
 
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#20
I just don't see the Empire splitting up, but the opposite. Someone will come along and unite them
I agree with you. The Empire will stay together, if for no other reason than mutual protection from the other provinces. The people of the Empire share a strong culture, religion and ways of thinking. If the Empire where to start fighting amongst itself it would be overrun, which it very nearly was (on several occasions) in the time of three Emperors. Sigmar, Magnus and Franz have also gone a long way to pulling the state together.
The fact there hasn't been any civil war inside the Empire since then probably shows that they have learned their lesson. To quote Ben. Frank. "We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Industrial technology goes a long ways to enabling these kinds of people, and the sense of Nationalism. With more advanced tech, comes easier and (in time safer due to escort capabilities) travel over longer distances. This ties these people together.
Does the Empire really have Industrial level tech? I'm not positive on when they first started using handguns, but they must have had their Arquebus' for at least a thousand years by now and they haven't shown much variation on them.

That's one of the things I would like not to see in the future; an Empire with more advanced tech. I want to have knights and sword fights in Fantasy, but if the Empire suddenly starts advancing in tech., we might see what happened historically; the gun will supplant the sword. I don't want to see that.
If I wanted battles decided by the gun, I would play 40K.
 

Sanai

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#21
I dont see any technological advance likely, as the tone of the warhammer world at the moment is one of things getting worse, not of progress.
 

Swissdictator

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#23
Technology advancing can occur even in the most horrific circumstances, and warfare often encourages technological advancement too, as well as the development of new concepts and ideas. Meanwhile other technologies, which have either been used in rare circumstances, in low numbers, or not taken seriously might also be expanded, brought into the fold, and/or proven/improved.

Nor does it mean that technological advances will have a positive effect in all ways, or at least in the near future.

Off the top of my head:

English Civil War: New Model Army

American Civil War: Too many to list, but to name a few.
The Ironclad (despite the French Glorie and British Warrior) was shown to be a serious tool of war and effective.
Tied into the above, the turret was shown to be effective, especially on a durable ship.
Gatling gun took the tinkering with rapid fire weapons, and turned it into a ferocious weapon of war. Self contaned cartridges that were developed during the war would eventually make the Gatling gun far more effective.
Trench Warfare in the modern sense.
Some of the modern concepts of Total War were developed.

World War 2:
Saw true investment into research into several technologies/scientific concepts such as Jets, rockets, atomic technologies, certain production methods, artificial fuels, and much more. In the case of rockets and the atom bomb, these were horrific things during the war (just ask the Brits about the V2!), but these (and others) would later prove essential in creating the world we know today in more benign methods (putting satellites/people into orbit, atomic energy, jet airlines, etc).


My point being, just because the world is going to Hell in a handbasket, does not mean nothing will be developed or improved...
 
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#24
But will it? Like I said, the Empire have had the same basic gun design for a thousand years and havent shown any inclination of improving upon it.
Personaly, let them stay in the tech. era their in.

Advancement, to me, would signal the end of Warhammer Fantasy and the begining of...something else. (what I dont know. Steam Punk? High Fantasy Victorian Era? I dont know, but it will kill what I love about the game.)
 

ironlord

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#25
If we get propper steam punk armies out there I am tossing my square bases in the bin.

Sure there is the steam tank but that is just 1 piece (and a very rare one despite what empire hardcore players will have you believe).
 
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