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A Note on High Elves ASF And Hellish Vigour

Lord Fear

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#1
One of the reasons I was most concerned about High Elves ASF was that it would essentially render Hellish Vigour and the Staff of Damnation useless against High Elves. However, I've re-read the rules for Great Weapons and ASF, and have found that actually, Hellish Vigour and the Staff of Damnation might actually be very useful against High Elves- specifically, against their many troops and characters armed with great weapons.

When 2 opposing units both have ASF, you revert to I order, which the High Elves will almost always win, but if one of them is armed with a great weapon, then he will strike last. So, if you can get Hellish Vigour off on a unit of Black Knights, Grave Guard, etc. then they wil lactually be able to tear through Swordmasters and White Lions with remarkable efficiency!

Just picture the scene, an arrogant High Elf general moving his Swordmasters right in front of your Black Knights, begging you to charge... and so you do, and manage to cast Hellish Vigour on your Knights. Suddenly, where the Swordmasters would have wiped out most the unit before they got a chance to attack, instead you will have wiped out most his front rank, and will probably break them (Maybe even autobreak if the Swordmasters are a small unit).

Now the High Elf player might dispel HellishVigour, but I'm sure many will not give a damn... make them pay :mrgreen:
 

N.I.B

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#2
Good info, could you quote the part of the rules you refer to?
 
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#3
Sounds great, but are you sure that it works that way? I mean swordmasters have both ASF and their do-not-strike-last-with-gw rule.
 

Lord Fear

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#4
I don't think Swordmasters have their "do-not-strike-last-with-great-weapon" rule any more.

Rules citations for the win:
P94: "If fighting another model with the same special rule (ASF), use the models' Initiative to determine who strikes first"
P35: "Troops armed with a weapon that strikes last will always strike last during close combat where they would otherwise strike in Initiative order."
As they are striking in initiative order, that means that the great weapon-armed troops will always strike last. Hehehe.
 
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#5
You are almost correct.

Go to your local GW store and take a quick look at the new High Elf Book (usually the stores have a copy on display, as it is not released untill the 10th). Under the SoA rule, the High Elves strike first ability allows them to attack before any ability or item that would normally allow them to always strike first.

This means that in the case of Hellish Vigor, you still will attack after a elf.

The only Item or ability in the game at this moment that allows a unit or character to supersede the HE always strike first ability is the Wood Elf item, the Amber Pendant.

I know I wasn't too thrilled to find that out either, but when the new VC book comes out, there will be many issues like this addressed and mended.
 

Lord Fear

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#6
What, they even still strike first before an Initiative 10 Lahmian Lord with Always Strike First? That I cannot believe until I see the book for myself (Everybody has so far told me that it is exactly the same as the ASF rule in the main rulebook).
 

N.I.B

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#8
Silas Gravedigger said:
The only Item or ability in the game at this moment that allows a unit or character to supersede the HE always strike first ability is the Wood Elf item, the Amber Pendant.
By your own description of the wording of the SoA rule, it would come down to a roll-off, as both SoA and Amber Pendant negates other items/abilites. Kind of like Banner of the Barrows vs (the undercosted) Annoyance of Netlings.
 

Arion

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#9
The amber pendant supersedes all others but from that wording i expect it would come to initiative as the BRB says so the woodelf lord would win.

'Any enemy models in base contact with the bearer of the amber pendant automaticlly strike last-even if they are charged or have an ability that would allow them to normally strike first.'
 

N.I.B

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#10
Then again
the High Elves strike first ability allows them to attack before any ability or item that would normally allow them (opponent) to always strike first.
 
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#11
N.I.B The arguement he is using is that the Amber Pendant does not allow it's bearer to 'strike first', instead, it causes the opponents to 'strike last'.
 

Lord Fear

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#12
The Amber Pendant will indeed supercede ASF, as it is written so that it specifically forces even models with ASF to strike last. To be honest I think Silas Gravedigger just butchered a bit of the rules he was paraphrasing.
 
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#13
Silas Gravedigger lied.

Elves just have the "Always strike first" rule, as specified in the rulebook. Nothing more than that.

To be super nice, I will even quote it;)

Special Rule - Speed of Asuryan
...fluff...
...fluff...
All high Elves have the special rule "Always strikes first", regardless of the weapon they are wielding. See the main rule book for details of this special rule.

Note that this special rule applies only to the High elves, and not to any mounts they are riding or creatures pulling chariots - which will strike in the usual order.
 

Lord Fear

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#14
Yes indeed, I managed to take a look at the new army book tonight, and after reading it, I do have to wonder which bodily orifice Silas pulled his post from.
 

Skaramak von Carstein

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#15
Looking at the various rules, I would say that it will come down to a comparison of initiative (with roll-off if a draw). My reasoning is as follows:

All high Elves have the special rule "Always strikes first", regardless of the weapon they are wielding. See the main rule book for details of this special rule.
(HE book p43)

Under tha ASF rule, it states "If fighting another model with the same rule, use the models' initiative to determine who strikes first (roll a dice in case of the same initiative)." (BRB p94)

So, under ASF, you compare initiatives, not ignore the ASF rule and revert to normal (so charging and other bonus'/detriments do not apply). So, EvC's Initiative 10 Lahmian Lord would get in first.

Also, as stated under the Speed of Asuryan rule, the weapon is not relevant in the as it applies to High Elves and ASF.

I would also agree with EvC in that the Amber Pendany would cause those in btb to strike last, as the effect of the ASF rule is specifically quoted.
 

N.I.B

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#16
Skaramak von Carstein said:
Also, as stated under the Speed of Asuryan rule, the weapon is not relevant in the as it applies to High Elves and ASF.
I think GW just put the wording in there to underline that they still get the 'Always Strike First' rule, regardless of the weapon they hold. The great weapon would then still cause them to strike after other units with 'Always Strike First', as previously mentioned.
 

Lord Fear

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#17
Yes, that's my interpretation: they're just trying to make sure people don't get confused and think that the rules for great weapons cancel out the rules for ASF (ASF doesn't cancel out the rules for great weapons either, mind)... and thus causes more confusion. Most statements of ASF state that it applies regardless of weapons (Hellish Vigour certainly does).

Still, I've seen a fair few intelligent people argue against my interpretation, so I can tell this is going to cause conflict. Guess I'll have to wait for an FAQ, I'm sure it's on the way ;)
 

Skaramak von Carstein

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#18
EvC said:
Still, I've seen a fair few intelligent people argue against my interpretation, so I can tell this is going to cause conflict. Guess I'll have to wait for an FAQ, I'm sure it's on the way ;)
I can see both sides to this one, I have to admit.

Given how long the High Elf book has been out, I am surprised that GW have not released an FAQ already ;)
 

Kaz

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#19
Actually, this is not the reason that hellish vigor is a incredible good spell against HE

One of the important parts about our army is that most of our troops can't fight, and they are pretty easy to kill too. Having a vamp (pretty much any kind) has been the standard way to make sure the enemy do not kill 3-5 models before, but the ASF spoils this.

Now, our vamps has pretty high initative, so casting hellish vigor on their unit will mean that the vampire gets to clean out their front rank, gaining us the CR that the HE would have gained on those models attacking.

If it's swordmasters, that's 4-5 models.
 

Skaramak von Carstein

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#20
Even if he doesn't manage to clear the front rank (which is unlikely in most cases), he can likely avoid any attacks back against him, which is a start.
 

Lord Fear

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#21
Kaz said:
Now, our vamps has pretty high initative, so casting hellish vigor on their unit will mean that the vampire gets to clean out their front rank, gaining us the CR that the HE would have gained on those models attacking.

If it's swordmasters, that's 4-5 models.
Lol, yeah, if you're running a Blood Dragon Lord. In my experience I'm lucky to kill 3 models a turn maximum. My Lady does strike first, but re-rolling those frequent misses will surely help :D
 

N.I.B

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#22
If you use a Lady, she'll do 4-5 wounds a turn on average with Hellish Vigour. Like he said.
 

Lord Fear

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#23
I was talking generally about with a typical Vampire Count with 4 attacks that many use. But with my Lady, sure, I could get up to 4 or 5 kills with re-rolls, as I then noted!
 

N.I.B

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#24
Well, the always popular Strigoi Count has 5 attacks, likewise most BD Counts. So it's not so far-fetched. Not that those usually need Hellish Vigour anyway ;)
 
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#25
Yeah, High Elves... what cha gonna do?
For the Empire, it's Gunline all the way. It's sad, it's terrible, but we basically have no choice with them.

Nuke them till they glow, then shoot them in the dark. :(
 
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