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Advice on a SGK build

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#1
Here he is:

Strigoi Ghoul King
Red Fury
Winged Horror
The Fencer's Blades
Potion of Strength
The Staff of Damnation
The Dragonbane Gem

So, he has 6 attacks that hit on 3's with re-rolls, the option to go S8 for a round, and the potential to up that to 7 attacks and the ability to fly out of his unit and chop things up if need be.

Thoughts? I think he's a bit fragile, especially since I won't be running a Mortis Engine with him. Relying on his 5+ regen seems a bit risky.
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
875
#2
It might just be because of my regular opponents, but I always prefer Ogre Blade on my 'king (S5 seems to bounce off a lot) - which also leaves my Enchanted Item slot free for OTS. Still, maybe WS10 will be more useful (especially for defence) - I guess it depends what you plan to send him against.

How are you planning to use him? Is he going to sit in a unit most of the game, and just fly out to attack specific targets? Or, is the intent for him to spend most of the game flying around? If the latter, you could give him Skabscrath and make a mini-terrorgheist. ;) Is his flight a core part of your list's strategy, or is it just intended as a surprise to catch an opponent off-guard?

The one thing that puzzled me somewhat was Staff of Damnation. It's expensive and has a pretty short range so, especially with a flying ghoul, it seems like it won't be affecting much when you cast it. But then, I haven't seen your list, so I'm really just guessing. Still, I'm just wondering if Cursed Book might be more useful - especially since it usually takes more effort to dispel.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#3
Vipoid said:
It might just be because of my regular opponents, but I always prefer Ogre Blade on my 'king (S5 seems to bounce off a lot) - which also leaves my Enchanted Item slot free for OTS. Still, maybe WS10 will be more useful (especially for defence) - I guess it depends what you plan to send him against.

How are you planning to use him? Is he going to sit in a unit most of the game, and just fly out to attack specific targets? Or, is the intent for him to spend most of the game flying around? If the latter, you could give him Skabscrath and make a mini-terrorgheist. ;) Is his flight a core part of your list's strategy, or is it just intended as a surprise to catch an opponent off-guard?

The one thing that puzzled me somewhat was Staff of Damnation. It's expensive and has a pretty short range so, especially with a flying ghoul, it seems like it won't be affecting much when you cast it. But then, I haven't seen your list, so I'm really just guessing. Still, I'm just wondering if Cursed Book might be more useful - especially since it usually takes more effort to dispel.
It was really a case that I'd bought the items I wanted, and simply had an extra 40 points to spend on him.

I intended the flight to be more of a gimmick, enabling him to fly out of his unit to catch someone by surprise, and also to project a 22" threat zone from the unit he is in. To let my opponents know that just because they are ~15" away from my infantry, doesn't mean they are safe.

I've actually re-though him a bit, and now I prefer the following:

Red Fury
Winged Horror
Fencer's Blades
Talisman of Preservation
Potion of Strength

This gives him slightly better protection. I could squeeze in Beguile for an extra failsafe against enemy characters.

I have to admit, I am worried about him only being S5 most of the time. Against some armies, this will be a struggle but against those armies I'll probably swap out for an Ogre Blade/OTS. Against armies that are predominantly T3 though I think it should do fairly well.

The rest of the list can be seen here:

https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-2-000-points-Crypt-Lurkers-list?pid=389047#pid389047
 

eggsPR

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
1,139
#4
hmmmm....

Red Fury
Winged Horror
Fencer's Blades
Talisman of Preservation
Potion of Strength

For the 24pts less, you can have a Vampire Lord with the following:
Heavy Armor
Charmed Shield (for that cannonball/rock that hits you when you're flying around)
Talisman of Preservation
Sword of Swift Slaying (ASF giving you rerolls on everything bar Keepers, Dreadlords, and DPS)
Potion of Strength (S8, just like the SGK)
Red Fury
Flying Horror
Beguile (so big nasty things you don't kill in a single turn have a harder time hitting you back as opposed to just hitting you on 4s with Fencers blades)

All this with a higher Ld 10, and did I mention 24 less points?


My point is that as soon you go down the route of cancelling out the SGK 5+ regen with ward saves, you may as well go VL... and VLs having the ability to take charmed shield is to me essential for flying lords.
 

Larro

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
237
#5
/agree with Eggy. As usual.

I hate flying VC Lords to begin with. Take a foot Lord with Nightshroud, GW, 4+ Ward and OTS, or go true Blender w/ RF/QB, and the usual Ogre/4+/Charmed or OTS. Let's not reinvent the wheel here. Especially if you aren't running a Mortis Engine.

The only use I see for a SGK is if comp hammers the VL and you take a SGK with a ME to allow the option of taking a Level 4 Master Necro on Death.

- Larry
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
255
#6
If you're going to gamble on the flying lord, go as cheap as possible, which means the SGK. The ward save or charmed shield won't protect him, your only hope is that flying out of a unit into the back line is enough to mess with his strategy such that you can do your damage and he won't be ready to turn back and focus you down.

My build
SGK
RF + FH
Ogre Blade
Dragonbane Gem

Fly out of the back line as soon as you can start messing up the warmachine and shooting block line, start wrecking face, overrun to get out of charge distances. He may focus you down with shooting, but at that point you can hope you haven't lost too many points and you can follow up with the rest of your army while you're pulling huge amounts of fire away.
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
875
#7
eggsPR said:
My point is that as soon you go down the route of cancelling out the SGK 5+ regen with ward saves, you may as well go VL...
This is my thought too - especially since vampire lords can also have armour and (if desired) extra wizard levels. In fact, if your army has a BK unit, you could put a VL on a hellsteed - thus allowing you to have Quickblood (and a good save).
 

Demian

Vampire Count
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
1,248
#8
Since the SGK will fly, it would be unwise to have him charging something that can kill him on the front (like Khorne Chaos Warriors...), so I'd say WS 10 is a bit too much (not that it's an expensive weapon...)

Scabscrath is "kinda" better here since you can 1-turn kill an abomination for instance with the potion.

So... since you won't be making full use of Fencer's Blades (most warmachines - shooty guys have either too low WS or low Str to deal with a vampire) you might have him carry:

Sword of Striking, Sword of Strife / Bloodshed: better attacks and can in fact munch a whole unit from the flank, with Beguile reducing 1/3 of return attacks.

Rod of Flaming Death: just on turn 2, if you play your magic right, you can paralize an entire unit with it!

Standard Ogre Blade / Giant's Blade / Obsidian Blade, DBG, OTS: same as any blender SGK, but with flight to catch that... Greater Daemon?

Alternatively, have him carry a Dispel Scroll / Scroll of Shielding! he has the room, the skill and the spare points to save you a necro there!
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
875
#9
Blutsauger, if you have time, I'd be very interested to hear your experiences using a winged SGK (whichever build you settle on).

Specifically if/when you flew him out of his unit, and what units he went for (and if he survived).

I ask because for some time I've been using a winged SGK in a unit, but have only once had reason to actually fly him out of his unit. So, I'm just curious to see whether you have the same experience, or whether your SGK leaves his unit much more often.
 

Larro

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
237
#10
Vipoid said:
In fact, if your army has a BK unit, you could put a VL on a hellsteed - thus allowing you to have Quickblood (and a good save).
Hellsteeds are War Beasts, not Cavalry.

- Larry
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
875
#11
Larro said:
Hellsteeds are War Beasts, not Cavalry.

- Larry
So are Skeletal Steeds and Nightmares.

Characters mounted on war beasts use the rules for cavalry.
 

Larro

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
237
#12
Really??? Now I'm wondering why we haven't seen more flying BK Bus character builds. Odd.

- Larry
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
875
#13
Larro said:
Really??? Now I'm wondering why we haven't seen more flying BK Bus character builds. Odd.

- Larry
Well, I don't BK busses (flying or otherwise ;)), but if I had to guess:

- A Barded Nightmare allows a Vampire Lord to have a 1+ armour save, whilst a Hellsteed limits said save to 2+.

- Wings on a foot-vampire unit give a pretty big boost to threat range and manoeuvrability (especially if he's in an infantry unit). However, BK busses are already pretty fast and manoeuvrable, so the gain is considerably less.

- How often would you really want to leave your BK bus? Doing so makes your Vampire Lord much more vulnerable - he no longer gets LoS, and if he rolls badly, he can easily crumble to death from static-CR. Similarly, your BK bus has just lost both its primary caster and its strongest combat character. And, considering how many points you'll have invested in that Death Star, you're taking a considerable risk by dismantling it.

Basically, I just can't think of many situations where you'd actually want your Vampire Lord to abandon his BK unit. Especially since having this option is both more expensive (not by much, but still) and also denies your lord access to a 1+ armour save.
 

eggsPR

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
1,139
#14
Vipoid said:
Basically, I just can't think of many situations where you'd actually want your Vampire Lord to abandon his BK unit.
I can :)

Bottom of turn 6 when you have zero downside and ALL the upside? Where charging out of the unit over that crap chaff unit and into that unit with double or triple the VPs whereby you can also takeout steadfast, break and rundown (or just kill) in a single round of CC?

Or bottom of turn 5 where things are looking dicey, and you're pretty sure you can wipe out something close to the table edge, overrunning off the board and away from that thing that was gonna give you much harm in the top of turn 6, only to come back onto the board bottom of turn 6 safe and sound?

Larro you didn't know this??

From what I gather you can also still get a Look out Sir roll if your hellsteed vamp leaves his BK bus and into a unit of 5+ dire wolves... bc LoS is determined by footprint, not unit type if I'm not mistaken.
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
875
#15
eggsPR said:
I can :)

Bottom of turn 6 when you have zero downside and ALL the upside? Where charging out of the unit over that crap chaff unit and into that unit with double or triple the VPs whereby you can also takeout steadfast, break and rundown (or just kill) in a single round of CC?

Or bottom of turn 5 where things are looking dicey, and you're pretty sure you can wipe out something close to the table edge, overrunning off the board and away from that thing that was gonna give you much harm in the top of turn 6, only to come back onto the board bottom of turn 6 safe and sound?
Hmm, those are good points.

Do you think it's worth sacrificing the 1+ AS for those options?

eggsPR said:
From what I gather you can also still get a Look out Sir roll if your hellsteed vamp leaves his BK bus and into a unit of 5+ dire wolves... bc LoS is determined by footprint, not unit type if I'm not mistaken.
Other way round - it's unit type that determines LoS, not footprint.
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
1,244
#16
It is unit type for LoS! That's why I always run my Hellsteed Lord with multiple units of Hexwraiths. 4+ LoS + charmed shield + 4++ is pretty reliable in the early game getting your vamp where he needs to be. Aaaaand cannon balls don't hurt HW's.
 

eggsPR

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
1,139
#17
Vipoid said:
eggsPR said:
I can :)

Bottom of turn 6 when you have zero downside and ALL the upside? Where charging out of the unit over that crap chaff unit and into that unit with double or triple the VPs whereby you can also takeout steadfast, break and rundown (or just kill) in a single round of CC?

Or bottom of turn 5 where things are looking dicey, and you're pretty sure you can wipe out something close to the table edge, overrunning off the board and away from that thing that was gonna give you much harm in the top of turn 6, only to come back onto the board bottom of turn 6 safe and sound?
Hmm, those are good points.

Do you think it's worth sacrificing the 1+ AS for those options?

eggsPR said:
From what I gather you can also still get a Look out Sir roll if your hellsteed vamp leaves his BK bus and into a unit of 5+ dire wolves... bc LoS is determined by footprint, not unit type if I'm not mistaken.
Other way round - it's unit type that determines LoS, not footprint.
Is it worth the +1 AS? Depends on the list. If you have a flying circus with hexwraiths, vargheists, fell bats and TGs, then yeah that would be awesome. If I had big Manny mounted so I can fling PSuns down an enemy's armyline, then yeah that would be cool.

I don't usually run a hellsteed bc I'm cheap and don't want to pay the extra 6 points.

Though you can run a BK bus with +1 movement, a WK, Necro and a Vamp on hellsteed... and that unit would have 9" movement bc skeletal steeds don't suffer barding and the hellsteed, well, moves 10"... so that's 18" movement which can be scary not counting an extra 8" van hels!


Shame on the not joining dogs thingy!
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
255
#18
bigbadbat said:
It is unit type for LoS! That's why I always run my Hellsteed Lord with multiple units of Hexwraiths. 4+ LoS + charmed shield + 4++ is pretty reliable in the early game getting your vamp where he needs to be. Aaaaand cannon balls don't hurt HW's.
Non-Ethereals can't join ethereal units.
 

eggsPR

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
1,139
#19
RarerMonsters said:
bigbadbat said:
It is unit type for LoS! That's why I always run my Hellsteed Lord with multiple units of Hexwraiths. 4+ LoS + charmed shield + 4++ is pretty reliable in the early game getting your vamp where he needs to be. Aaaaand cannon balls don't hurt HW's.
Non-Ethereals can't join ethereal units.
That's why it's a 4+ look out sir. Same unit type can grant look out sir roll if within 3 inches of 5 or more r&f models.
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
1,244
#20
That's right Eggy! I've been pulling this trick for a long time. Surprised to see folks been missing out on this fun.
You can't chaff the Hellsteed vamps and HW list.
 

Demian

Vampire Count
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
1,248
#21
Yes there is a situation where it's in your best interest to leave any unit, be it Cavalry or Infantry:

You have your opponents deathstar / most numerous Unit right in front of your main line. He is turning about so that your Cavalry won't flank them. Then, you decide not to charge in that turn, but instead march-fly your Lord to the other side / flank of them and have him face 3 threats on 3 different sides. No charges yet (or you can just charge with something to keep them occupied, your call)

Then, for the next turn, he can reform... but how? 2/3 of your Units will be able to hit em on the flanks. Not even a White Lion deathstar can face that many attacks on the flank. Not even Khorne.. well those guys can, but all else can't!

So, once it's your turn again, you charge with whatever you please... and a V. Lord / SGK on the flank / rear IS going to make a whole mess, and will almost always survive any return attacks, even with a 2+ AS... or a 5+ Regen!

Splitting your resources! and Vampires are very very resoucefull on their own.
 
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
41
#22
Vipoid said:
Blutsauger, if you have time, I'd be very interested to hear your experiences using a winged SGK (whichever build you settle on).

Specifically if/when you flew him out of his unit, and what units he went for (and if he survived).

I ask because for some time I've been using a winged SGK in a unit, but have only once had reason to actually fly him out of his unit. So, I'm just curious to see whether you have the same experience, or whether your SGK leaves his unit much more often.
I did this with my SGK a few weeks back as I just wanted fun build with some surprise factor.

Loaded the SGK, with flying, Scabsath, Redfury, etc and put him in a Ghoul horde.

My opponent was Ogres and had 2 main Ogre blocks, one with all his characters and one just normal MI guys.

I positioned my horde in such a way that his main block had to charge the Ghouls but at the last minute charged the SGK out at his other Ogre block with no characters and left the Ghouls to receive the charge from the Gutstar on following turn.

What followed was hilarious. The SGK killed about 4 models between the Scabscsth scream and close combat, forced a break and ran them down, all 9 models gone.

The main Gutstar charged the Ghouls which I had Augmented both for rerolls to hit and wound. With the rerolls I rolled a sick number of wounds and forced his main unit to turn and run as well, also running them down. I think he forgot to put stubborn on them.

Unfortunately the positioning from the overrun put my SGK in the sights if his Chariot Cannon thing and it ripped the head off my Lord and my army fell apart.

It was definitely a fun play, but I think I would need Vargheists or something to hit the artillery early so the SGK isn't exposed after the surprise attack.

It is definitely a risky play, but I think if planned well with aggressive support it can really take an opponent by surprise. If not for the unlucky cannon to the face the game was pretty much over in that single play...
 
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Messages
708
#23
I had a sgk against o&g yesterday:

Red fury
flying horror
dreadknight
summon creatures of the night

OTS
Ogre blade
dragonbane gem
staff of damnation.

This gives him ws 8 which is already very high. an unwavering strength 7 with possibly 6 instead of 5 attack. the almighty OTS which he would need in those challenges he is forced to call.
He was backed by a mortis engine and i made sure it was close to him even when he flew out to get in cc.
I had him backed by 8 crypthorrors as well so that staff could be used on them as well. i have to say it worked really well. the horrors/mortis and sgk raped his savage orcs unit and trolls in one big showdown.
 
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