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Alamo Indy GT 2.5k refinement

Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
342
#1
Hello all! I am venturing to San Antonio in November for the Alamo Indy GT.(Not that far from Houston :) ) It is pretty much un-comped, no restrictions, no lord special chars.. you can see the rules n such here you can also find the scenarios there too.

I posted a list not tooooo long ago and with yalls feedback had tweaked it to a good point... I have further tweaked it and like it, a bit iffy on my vamp hero build though, and would like to polish my list.

Total Points:2494
Lords:625

Strigoi Ghoul King
lv 1 Vamps(ION)
Red Fury
Dread Knight
Ogre Blade
Dispel Scroll
Dragonbane Gem
Other Tricksters shard
(in Ghoul Horde)

Master Necromancer
lv 4 Death
Power Stone
(in Ghoul Horde)

Heroes:280

Vampire
BSB
Barded Nightmare
lv 2 Vamps
warrior bane
enchanted shield
cursed book
ironcurse icon
beguile
quickblood
(in the black knights)

Core:630

Ghouls
37 + 1 Ghast
(Horde)

6 Units of 5 Dire Wolves
(3 in front 2 behind)

Special:509

Spirit Host

Black Knights
10 + 1 Hell Knight and full cmd
Barding + Lances
Banner of Eternal Flame

Varghiests
2 in front one behind?

Rare:450

Terrorghiest

Terrorghiest


So I have used this list at least 6 games, won them all except a tie with dwarves and a loss to dwarves. I plan to use the knights as anti-hydra/abombs, but is the banner of swiftness better in my list?

So what do yall think?
Any advice is much apreciated!
 

Gokamok

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
260
#2
List is generally awesome, but like you, I'm not sold on the BSB.
Also, I think you could benefit from a zombie unit to act as an emergency bunker for the Necro (and SGK if things get rough).

If you feel that the Cursed Book is absolutely vital to your build, then I'd go for a Lance and Red Fury insted of the current powers. Warrior Bane isn't all that hot when you're not exactly guaranteed to wound an enemy character, and against regen monsters, it would be better to benefit from flaming.

Off the top of my head, here are two other BSB builds that might be interesting, or at least different:

The Tank
-Dawnstone, Dragonhelm, Ironcurse Icon, Lance/cheap magic weapon
-AoDM, Beguile, Dread Knight

Pretty good at challenges, and useful for holding up stuff with flaming attacks.

The Can Opener
-Sword of Swift Slaying, Potion of Strength, Enchanted Shield/Ironcurse Icon
-Red Fury

Does absolutely horrible things to stuff with high toughness or good armour saves, but doesn't bring much utility other than that.

...and as mentioned, I'd fiddle around a bit with the wolves. Drop 2 units for 20 Zombies (Command optional) and maybe bump a unit up 6-7 including a Doom Wolf, just to have a Dragon Trap(tm) handy.
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
1,244
#3
I would make bsb shadow. That way you can charge in your ghouls, cast nasty spells with your Deathro, then wisk him away to safety in your zombie bunker that you swapped 2 units of wolves for housing your miasma flingin bsb at 48". PS through combat is nasty. Gives you added punch too in those ghouls, not that it is super necessary.
That does just turn your BK into a possible rubber lance scenario though, but the TG should save.them from protracted combats.
 
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
342
#4
Alright, very helpful stuff! I have done a few revisions, and will have a chance to try them out in two games tonight. I am dropping two dog units, bumped one up to 7 with doom wolf, added in the zombie bunker(no cmd). I will try out the bsb on foot as per bigbadbat's recommendation, and will see how the knights do without his support(also bumped them up to 12 models. I do like the idea of preserving my master necro so he isnt just killed in combat and that sounds more appealing than the mounted vamp with his knight buddies.

The build for the vamp is limited on points unless I drop something like the spirit host, but here is what I have for now.(oh I also dropped the cursed book )

Vampire:254
On foot and BSB
Lv 2 shadow
Heavy Armor
Sword of Swift Slaying
Enchanted Shield
Luckstone
Redfury
(goes in with the zombies)

Hopefully this will be successfull, anyways.. thanks for the help thus far, I shall be back later to post my results/thoughts. :suck:
 
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
342
#5
OK so I did indeed have two games last night with this list and learned some things.

Things I learned:
1.Some people are really lucky and make 4 insane courage ld tests in one game.
2.If you don't have a backup Lore of Vamps caster, and ur general dies it really sucks lol
3.The above replies did help, the Shadow Vamp hero in the zombie bunker worked great at removing my MN from certain doom and getting himself into the front lines.
4.Unfortunatly, the loss of the hero in the black knights made them as bigbadbat said a rubber lance unit, and had a hard time doing much.

So I have devised a new list, that should make up for the deficiencies of this last one. I have dropped the spirit host and varghiests for points to add a mounted vamp hero in with the bks, while trimming down on the BSB. Anyways my only concern is the amount of chaff. Im down to 4 units of dire wolves. Heres me list.

Total Points:2498
Lords:625
Strigoi Ghoul King
Lv 1 Lore of Vamps(ION)
Ogre Blade
Dispel Scroll
The Other Tricksters Shard
Dragonbane Gem
Red Fury
Dreadknight

Master Necromancer
Lv 4 Death
Power Stone

Heroes:456

Vampire
Lv 2 Shadow
BSB
Heavy Armour
Sword Of Swift Slaying
Enchanted Shield
Red Fury

Vampire2
Lv 1 Vamps(ION)
Barded Nightmare
Heavy Armour/Shield
Sword Of Might
DragonHelm
Ironcurse Icon
Beguile
Quickblood

Core:641

Ghoul Horde
37 Ghouls + 1 Ghast

3 * 5 Units Direwolves

Dire Wolves
6 Dire wolves +1 Doomwolf
Zombies
20 Zombies+muso

Special:326

Black Knights
10 Black Knights+1 Hell Knight
Muso/Flag
Barding
Lances
Banner of Eternal Flame

Rare:450

Terrorghiest

Terrorghiest

Ty for any thoughts on my new list xD
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
1,244
#6
I like the changes. Wouldn't worry too much about chaff/drops as you still have 4 wolves and a zombie bunker. The footprint of the ghoul horde and BK is pretty big, and you dont want to be getting in your own way.
If you're taking this to the Alamo, you definitely want to have a few spirit hosts. They just prove invaluable in a tourney setting.
You may think this is crazy, but I'd look at dropping a TG for 2 SH and those vargs.
 
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
342
#7
That does sound crazy! But, considering how my TG's dont allways accomplish as much as I hope, or get blown to pieces, it is sound logic. Ill try them instead of the TG in my next game. Ty for your helps and quick reply! :thumbsup:
 

Gokamok

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
260
#8
I'm a bit skeptical as to whether you're getting enough out of having 2 hero Vampires, especially considering the units you've given up to take the second.

A slightly crazy idea could be to go for a Wight King BSB with flaming banner in the Knights, and then put Banner of the Barrows on them. I guess that should make the unit at least as good at monster hunting as with the Vampire, and you'll get that nice ethereal movement to boot. Not sure on whether it's a good idea though, just throwing it out there!
 

Chaos_Born

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
2,078
#9
I think the above list is fine, other than the fact your dragon trap doesn't work (you need an extra wolf, or you can just drop it back to 5 and loose the champion). Don't be too worried about only 4 chaff units, sure a spirit host or two is nicer, but I think the dual terrorgheist is plenty effective without it.

But I suppose play testing will reveal if you need the extra bumps or not
 

Seneschal

Liche
True Blood
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
5,524
#11
My personal opinion,
If you want to go the double TG route with 10 knights then you need to make the majority of your heavy hitters mobile. Drop the SGK for a VL and give him/her a horsie.
Drop the BSB for some vargheists.


bigbadbat said:
You may think this is crazy, but I'd look at dropping a TG for 2 SH and those vargs.
The above is good advice if you want to keep the infantry general. Give it a shot.
 
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
342
#12
Alright, I think I would prefer the infantry list, saves me having to paint up some more mounted chars and a t-ghiest too xD Ty all for the input, I shall get a game in with the 2 SH and Vargs, and post my findings. Ive also dropped the dragon trap, just a regular DW unit instead, this combined with a standard bearer on the zombies puts me to 628 core with a few leftoever points for a luckstone and a potion of foolhardiness(i suppose?) on the foot vamp. Also not sure which of the heroes should carry the BSB..hmm
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
1,244
#13
You're not giving bsb a magic banner, so I would just drop that anyway saving you some points.
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
288
#14
The big problem of our infantery is that it doesn't kill enough. Unless you field a huge unit of Grave guard (45+) with banner of the barrows, and enough mages to ensure VHDM goes off, they just don't cut it. Ghouls struggle against heavily armored units. Grave Guard against every elite unit out there. Skeletons against everything. Zombies against everything and there mother. They just can't kill stuff without magical support. 7th was the same, but back than we had the tools to ensure that support was guaranteed (multiple VHDM, bound spells, 12 PD, Helm). We have that no more.

So, we need to make up for our lack of allround killer unit by our, let's admit it, ridiculously hard characters. Against units with a 2+ save, the vampire with GW supporting them will be 10 times more cost efficient than the Ghoul horde. The Grave Guard will off course tear holes in stuff, but they are easily avoidable and don't have the killing power to tear through a decent tarpit due to their low WS and single attack. You can of course start buffing them, but if you need buffs against Slaves, Marauders et cetera, you're doing something not right. Once again, that Vampire with Red Fury, guaranteeing 6-7 kill can be so good.

You seem to have understood that problem, including more and more killy characters in your list, making them hittier and hittier. The only thing that you've got left to do, is buy them a mount, so you can avoid their final weakness: lack of manoevrability. But by doing that, you've inavoidabily taken the final step towards the deathstar approach. There's nothing wrong with that, but it'll make your list lack some flavour and make it boring, and it's got some serois counters, unless you include gimmicks, like HW and DW spam, or 2 TG. And than you've copied my list. It's a natural proces I guess, stemming from develpoing you're "optimal" 7th list to an "optimal" 8th list. I really recognize your thinking proces, realizing just how insanely good those Vampires make the Black Knights

So, in conclusion, if you do want to "optimize" your list, get the Ghoul King and the Master Necro out, buy yourself a 600 points Lord and stick him on a steed. You've got your deathstar. It's insanely hard hitting, and Varghulfs, Terrorgheists, Dire Wolves and Ghouls all work well next to it. But you'll have a deathstar. So you could just as well stick with your current list. It's also really good! But you'll sometimes have those typical problems getting your Ghouls King to where you need him... But Shadow is indeed a nice touch to solve that issue.

If you do stick with an infantry general, I'd take the advice of Senechal and BBB concerning the VG. Also, keep the BSB, with only LD 9, you're gonna be failing some enemy sighted tests otherwise. And keep the Dragon Trap. It wins battles, particularly at such a high points level where you do see Dragons. PoF raraely wins battles.

So all in all, excellent list. But you know how to make it better ;)
 
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
342
#15
Thanks for the reply Tamodan. I read your battle report and found it epicly hilarious! xD I dont think I will go the deathstar route, at least not yet. If I did, I think your list is pretty badass and would probably copy it exactly lol I think the hexwraiths are great to compliment the deathstar, and I would need to purchase and paint all them up in addition to what I allready need to do. With a few mounted vamps as well..

I cannot, unfortunatly, afford the points to still make the dragon trap. Also what does PoF stand for?

Heres my list with some changes :)


Total Points:2498
Lords:625
Strigoi Ghoul King
Lv 1 Lore of Vamps(ION)
Ogre Blade
Dispel Scroll
The Other Tricksters Shard
Dragonbane Gem
Red Fury
Dreadknight

Master Necromancer
Lv 4 Death
Power Stone

Heroes:456

Vampire
Lv 2 Shadow
BSB
Heavy Armour
Sword Of Swift Slaying
Enchanted Shield
Red Fury

Vampire2
Lv 1 Vamps(ION)
Barded Nightmare
Heavy Armour/Shield
Sword Of Might
DragonHelm
Ironcurse Icon
Beguile
Quickblood

Core:628

Ghoul Horde
37 Ghouls + 1 Ghast

4 Units Direwolves 5 strong(one is 6 strong)

Zombies
20 Zombies+cmd

Special:564

Spirt Host

Spirt Host

Varghiests
2 X with 1 Vargoyle

Black Knights
10 Black Knights+1 Hell Knight
Muso/Flag
Barding
Lances
Banner of Eternal Flame

Rare:xxx

Terrorghiest



Thanks for havin a look, and to everyone who has helped thus far. :suck:
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
1,244
#16
This should do rather solid! Choose your fights carefully and all should be well. Looking forward to hear how this does.
Side note... as there is quite a while before the Alamo, Id recommend playing one list at least 10 times before making any changes. You need a large sample to balance out the vagueries of this game(i.e. 4 insane courage rolls!) to better gauge how your army can be improved.
 
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
342
#17
Alright, plenty of time for 10 games, I should have 3-5 by Saturday night. I'll post back up then with my findings...i downloaded the battle report program listed on this site, maybe I'll give that a go and make a nice battle report

Ty again xD
 

Gokamok

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
260
#19
A very small thing that you could consider is ditching the Varghoyle in order to grab some small items like Potion of Foolhardiness/Speed, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant or the like for your Vampires. But, I guess it's only relevant if you want the option to go wizard hunting with the Vargheists, otherwise it's probably better to keep the champion.
 
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
342
#20
Ya that did occur to me and I was fiddling around with said items but decided the extra wounds etc from the vargoyle from shooting (and ION seemed better).... BUT I had a brain fart and forgot about the varygoyle being challenged out, I will definitly consider changing that..Anyone else's opinion on Gokamok's Post?(TY Gok for reminding me hehe :slapface: )I do have the lore of Death also for taking out wizards...
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
288
#21
The Vargoyle just means one extra attack. He doesn't have to accept challenges, champions can decline and stay in the front rank, if there's no other character ;)
 
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
14
#22
The only thing I fear for your list is the problem of putting dreadknight on the SGK. The +2 WS is very nice, it's just the must issue anad accept challenges that worries me, especially if he has to challenge / accept one against a very killy / tough character as he is great at killing, but pretty darn squishy.
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
1,244
#23
Death Necro and Shadow Vamp should snipe or disable any threats prior to challenge time;)
 
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
342
#24
OK so, I got a few games in, tbe list is solid, my luck..not so much. I suppose Ill post this up in Legacies of Blood. Not gonna be an amazing b-report but whatevs.

Changes I made prior: Took Gokamok's advice and took luckstone on mounted vamp and pidgeon pluckers on BSB, dropped the vargoyle.

Changes I will make Post Games: Nothing yet.
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
288
#25
Really looking forward to reading how you played with the list, very similar to mine, so lots to learn. What I'm particularly curious about is how you get around with banner of Eternal Flame on the BK bus. Aren't you scared of stubborn 2+ ward characters? I suppose a TG helps against the flying ones, but there's more to it than just that, right?
 
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