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AoS Undead Legions

Alabaster427

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#1
I was trying to figure out some synergy in VC and saw that all summoning spells are known by DEATH WIZARDS, and I got curious to see if Tomb Kings was worded differently. It turns out that it's NOT. In Tomb Kings, the summon and reanimate spells are also known by all DEATH WIZARDS. So, as far as I can tell, TK and VC can each summon each others units, effectively keeping Undead Legions around, but definitely not as strong as it was in End Times (characters, Casket, Hierotitans, etc.).

I know there is still some arguing about whether a unit has to be fielded in order for the wizards to know the associated spell, but if they don't, then this really opens up the synergy and allows the guys that bought a bunch of new units for Undead Legions to not all of a sudden have a bunch of useless models, which seems to be GWs intent.
 

Malisteen

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#2
Keep in mind that there's nothing preventing you from just using models from multiple 'factions'. You can run your VC and TK stuff together anyway. They're all 'Death' units, regardless. Rules discouraging this aren't even particularly required, since even within a faction units tend to fall into a number of keyworded subcategories of units that all work better within that subcategory, anyway. For instance, ghouls, ghasts, and strigoi all have benefits being used together, zombies specifically benefit from corpse cartes, and so on.
 

Alabaster427

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#3
Right, but my point is that we can summon Archers, chariots, bone giants, horse archers, etc.
 

Oppenheimer

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#4
There's some debate on if you can summon a unit that was not fielded first. But, assuming you can cast any spell from any warscroll even if that scroll wasn't picked for the battle than yes you could summon archers, or you could just field then at first.
 

Demian

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#5
Yep, our armies got a lot more, with proper Ambushers like Scorpions or Stalkers, and even Vultures.

We have the hordes, we have the shooting stuff, we even have a Catapult! (+ Necrotect + Screams = awesomeness)

We have the Monsters!!

I'm considering trying a turtle army, with Spears, Archai, Catapults and random fast hunters, like Sepulchral Stalkers and Varghulf. Could work.
 

Alabaster427

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#6
Yep, our armies got a lot more, with proper Ambushers like Scorpions or Stalkers, and even Vultures.

We have the hordes, we have the shooting stuff, we even have a Catapult! (+ Necrotect + Screams = awesomeness)

We have the Monsters!!

I'm considering trying a turtle army, with Spears, Archai, Catapults and random fast hunters, like Sepulchral Stalkers and Varghulf. Could work.
The only thing is I don't see how you could field TK and VC together since they are separate armies again. There is no Undead Legions army so it's the magic that allows for this. The magic on catapults only allows you to spawn crew, not the catapult itself.
 

Demian

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#7
Yep, however...

I suspect you can field anything along anything now.

Your miniatures don't have to come from the same Army Warscrolls. It's just that Warscrolls have an internal synergy now. At the very least, you can field units with the same faction, it would seem, so ORDER armies can contain any ORDER miniature, fielding Elves along Humans and Dwarfs for the classic triunvirate.

DEATH units share both an internal VC-TK synergy, and a DEATH synergy.
 

Malisteen

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#8
What does 'separate armies' mean? In this game nothing. There's no rules on what you can or cannot take. Sticking to one army is no more or less arbitrary that sticking to a particular limit of wounds or battlescrolls. These may be reasonable homebrew limits, but honestly rather than trying to come up with specific rules - which in this game can always, always be broken - instead one should just decide with their opponent what is reasonable regardless.

I would be much happier playing against an 'undead legions' mixed faction list that deploys both skeleton archers and vamp count grave guard led by krell than against, say, nagash, arkhan, a morghast, a corpse cart, and a mortis engine; even though the former draws from two 'armies' and the latter only one.

And if we were limiting to single 'armies', I don't know why you would apply that limit to what units you field but not what units you summon. If the scroll is available to you, then it's available, and if it's not then it's not, imo.
 

LordTobiothan

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#9
When they release the new factions, "death" will be one of them, we are already planned to be the same army anyway.

But no there arent any restrictions on mixing armies.
 

Alabaster427

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#10
That makes sense. I had also been wondering about combining warscrolls from different armies, but there didn't seem to be much debate about it so I was hindered by old rules. I could see limiting them to the ORDER, DEATH, CHAOS, DESTRUCTION factions. Settra alongside Nagash? Cool Beans.

That could also make for some really cool custom scenarios/campaigns: Nagash and his Mortarchs in a meeting with Settra, Khalida, and others discussing tactics when they are suddenly assaulted by (insert enemy here). Entire armies vs. these few characters. Sounds really fun.
 

Malisteen

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#11
I'm not sure why you would even necessarily limit it to one of the 'big four' except for thematic purposes.
 

Alabaster427

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#12
I'm not sure why you would even necessarily limit it to one of the 'big four' except for thematic purposes.
That's basically it. And I don't want to buy new models... Although, the Sigmarines are technically undead...
 

Malisteen

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#13
Which, by the way, you should bring up every time a sigmarite player talks shit about nagash breaking the grand alliance of the gods. Remind them that Sigmar broke the alliance first, by stealing the souls of his dead warriors from their rightful place in the afterlife, usurping Nagash's divine domain. Sigmar talks big about 'order' and 'discipline', but as soon as the rules don't appeal to him personally he just throws them out, the big shiny hypocrite.
 

Demian

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#14
Whoever would disturb Nagash and his Mortarchs by attacking them with anything less than that Bloodthirster of the 3rd circle, with multiple copies of himself...

..deserves to suffer what usually happens when you go against Nagash and his Mortarchs. =P

Perhaps as a gag, I'll get a Sigmarine. It would be a shame if someone would...

vampirize it. Mwahahaha (like a former Grail Knight we made into a Dreadknight, with some bits and pieces from the winged vampire lord model, to add to his armor, and the grail in his cloak was painted bloody)
 

Banat

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#16
I noticed some stuff doesn't synergise from TK though. IIRC the casket of souls refers specifically to "liche priest" models.

Genuinely excited for new DEATH faction forces.
 

Demian

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#17
Just the Casket and the effect of Settra specifying MUMMY heroes.

Still, everything else, specially the "summoning" and "Skeleton" tags add quite nicely.
 

Tawg

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#18
I'm not sure why you would even necessarily limit it to one of the 'big four' except for thematic purposes.
For sure, plus it gives all new meaning to the Undead-Ork army that is made by that one company, what was is Titan Forge?

Plus with the Key-word system they have going on (Which could turn out to be interesting..), just imagine if they release official cross-army models like that! Or even just WarScrolls for units that are from "Specific Campaigns/story lines/worlds" where you had thing like Undead Orks, I'm sorry Death Orruks, that get keywords from both factions and thus can be interacted with by both in different ways? That would be insanely cool. Hell, you could even just home-brew a force if you had a really interesting theme before you. Like good ol' @robtion who had that really cool Vampire/Wood elf themed army with dryads vampires and such. Creating unique rules for personally themed armies is... very exciting. Granted it'll take some time before we grasp the "balance" between things to be able to do so fairly :vampire1:

I noticed some stuff doesn't synergise from TK though. IIRC the casket of souls refers specifically to "liche priest" models.

Genuinely excited for new DEATH faction forces.
I am genuinely excited to see anything new coming down the line here soon! The possibility of amazing looking models is greater than the chance to rain in a typhoon. Although I do hope they look amazing, and appeal to me :ghost: Because it would be a shame if I thought them rather uninspiring.
 

Malisteen

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#19
Yeah, I really liked our end times models, and if that's the aesthetic direction they're taking the age of sigmar undead in, then I can't wait to see more.
 
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#20
I'm hoping the same thing. With these new rules, I can dig out my old archers. I'm thinking once we all get the hang of this, t could lead to some interesting games. Course the new big book is coming, so more rules
 

Malisteen

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#21
New book's rules are mostly in the scenario sense, and don't add much for us. There's some background, but it's pretty unclear, and it doesn't name anyone for our team other than Nagash.

Here's a brief summary of the history of the Undead from the End Times to the modern Age of Sigmar according to the book:

-----------------------------------

After the destruction of the old world, Nagash found his consciousness had survived the end, coalescing within the death magic saturating the new splinter realm of shyish. Many of the various undeworlds and minor death gods from various old world cultures also remained, and Nagash spent the following age conquering each underworld in turn and consuming these rival deities. By the time Sigmar forged his grand alliance, Nagash stood supreme as the sole god of Death and ruler of all underworlds.

During the age of peace between the Gods, Nagash tolerated the existence of the other Gods and other realms, taking his place in the pantheon as god of the dead. The spirits of the dead of all worlds eventually passed into his keeping, and though he may have plotted usurpation, he did not act against the other realms, and even tolerated communities and cultures of the living within his own realm, so long as they worshiped him.

Then came the war of chaos. Where the other realms were assaulted by armies of daemons and mortal warriors, Nagash's realm was first set upon by the skaven, gnawing their way threw the barriers between realities to infiltrate Shyish from below. These attacks left Nagash's forces considerably weakened and unable to commit themselves fully to the greater war effort. Though it isn't explicitly stated from what I can tell, to the rest of the alliance it must have looked like Nagash was holding the bulk of his forces in reserve, waiting to see which side would gain the upper hand.

During a key battle at the height of the war on chaos, the undead suddenly switched sides. The book doesn't overtly state what happened (imo it has the stink of Mannfred's duplicity all over it), but Sigmar assumed betrayal by Nagash, and pulled out of the battle to go after the Great Necromancer in what became known as 'the wars of heaven and the underworlds'. They fought several times, with Nagash always escaping, but by the time Sigmar finally returned to the real fight it was too late to turn the tide. At the same time, the clashes with Sigmar left Nagash so weakened that Archaon was able to best him in single combat when the forces of Chaos finally arrived in Shyish (or however its spelled). Nagash's surviving mortarchs (no mention of who specifically, but one has to imagine Arkhan was the key actor here), were able to retrieve the remains and retreat to the deepest underworlds, where chaos was unable to follow and even the skaven couldn't penetrate.

Eventually Nagash's spirit coalesced and returned to his body, and he lurked in his underworld soaking up power until he was able to stage one of his signature comebacks, with ghostly armies surging from the underworld and necromantic magic saturating his realm such that all dead would rise in Nagash's service. The occupying chaos forces were completely overwhelmed - a powerful chaos champion might hack apart 50 zombies before being dragged down by weight of numbers, only for all 50 zombies to pull themselves together and rise back up after, joined by the champion's corpse. However, renewed skaven assaults from below once again stall Nagash's advances, and it seems the Great Necromancer is doomed to be forever stymied by the plots of the rat men, whether in the old world or the new.

And that takes us to the 'present day' in Age of Sigmar as far as Nagash and his realm is concerned. Though Nagash and Sigmar remain enemies (all the more so, now that Sigmar is claiming the souls of slain heroes to fill out the ranks of his new celestial army), the Sigmarines have been mentioned as showing up in support of the undead battling against the forces of chaos.

--------------------------------

The bulk of the 'present day' fluff and narrative scenarios in the book focus on the sigmarines working to reclaim realm gates from the forces of khorne in the realm of fire, and supporting Alariel's dryads and tree-types in the realm of Life against a renewed incursion by the forces of Nurgle, though there are some non-faction-specific, non-realm-specific scenarios that work with us. There's a 'stop the ritual' scenario that is a particularly good thematic fit for us.

I assume that there will eventually be some campaign expansion focusing on the 'wars of the dead', expanding our cast of characters somewhat and presumably bringing new scenarios and maybe models for undead and skaven factions in particular, but from the sounds of it such an expansion won't be showing up any time soon. Rumors are that we've got a few more weeks of Sigmarines, and then Khorne, and after that maybe something 40k, and then back to Age of Sigmar with some Tzeentch related campaign expansion (plus maybe a tie in for 40k), and that should already have us into next year, so yeah, I don't expect anything new on the Death front any time soon.

That said, we do have a lot to work with just with the VC and TK rules we've already got, so... *shrug*.
 
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Tawg

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#22
New book's rules are mostly in the scenario sense, and don't add much for us. There's some background, but it's pretty unclear, and it doesn't name anyone for our team other than Nagash.

Here's a brief summary of the history of the Undead from the End Times to the modern Age of Sigmar according to the book:

-----------------------------------

Plenty o' Words.

--------------------------------

The bulk of the 'present day' fluff and narrative scenarios in the book focus on the sigmarines working to reclaim realm gates from the forces of khorne in the realm of fire, and supporting Alariel's dryads and tree-types in the realm of Life against a renewed incursion by the forces of Nurgle, though there are some non-faction-specific, non-realm-specific scenarios that work with us. There's a 'stop the ritual' scenario that is a particularly good thematic fit for us.

I assume that there will eventually be some campaign expansion focusing on the 'wars of the dead', expanding our cast of characters somewhat and presumably bringing new scenarios and maybe models for undead and skaven factions in particular, but from the sounds of it such an expansion won't be showing up any time soon. Rumors are that we've got a few more weeks of Sigmarines, and then Khorne, and after that maybe something 40k, and then back to Age of Sigmar with some Tzeentch related campaign expansion (plus maybe a tie in for 40k), and that should already have us into next year, so yeah, I don't expect anything new on the Death front any time soon.

That said, we do have a lot to work with just with the VC and TK rules we've already got, so... *shrug*.
Interesting. I suppose you've been following such rumors on other sites or some such? Besides like, literally the week before AoS dropped, I don't really pay attention to most rumor mills, mostly because I don't frequent most of the sites that do that well. But that is interesting, did you end up picking up the book then? I'm looking at getting it, but I can't decide if I want it that bad or not. Although I was thinking to go buy it like, right now, so any reply you make is probably going to be too late to see.

Either way, I didn't know how against the Undead the Skaven were so that's new to me (Maybe I need more rat skulls as trophies).

EDIT: On second thought, I instead passed out face first on my bed and slept until a half hour past the FLGS was open till. So perhaps I will see an opinion yet!
 
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Malisteen

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#23
I got the tablet ebook, but it's frustrating and annoying, in a epub3 format that my previous reader didn't like. I downloaded kobo, which was GW's suggested reader, and it's annoying (more a kindle or nook style book shop than a reader, importing my own file was an unnecessarily hasslesome process), and super slow. As in, I could have waited for a pirated PDF, and that would have provided a better reading experience slow. Frankly, I might download a pirated PDF anyway at this rate, is how annoying this file is to work with. And since it's a separate purchase from the 'phone version', I can't even just download that file format to see if it works better, unlike previous black library digital editions, in which you purchased the book, and then could download it in whatever format (they used to offer regular epub and mobi) that you wanted.

I don't know if the 'phone' version is a regular type ebook or not, but I don't at all recomend the 'tablet' version.

A friend purchased the physical version. It's a nice product, as one would expect.
 
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#24
For the price I'd rather have the hard copy. Yeah, with all the love we got during the ET, I didn't expect us to get much for awhile. With the new system, GW will need to work on the basics first. Good vs bad guys so it's going to be sigmar and chaos. Maybe elves and destruction next? Who knows but yeah I think we will wait abit.
 

Tawg

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#25
For the price I'd rather have the hard copy. Yeah, with all the love we got during the ET, I didn't expect us to get much for awhile. With the new system, GW will need to work on the basics first. Good vs bad guys so it's going to be sigmar and chaos. Maybe elves and destruction next? Who knows but yeah I think we will wait abit.
I picked it up. It's a big book, and I only just glanced through it at the hobby shop before buying it (The FLGS keeps at least one book not in shrink wrap for looking at, thank god). It is quite pretty, and I agree, any book I get from GW is going to be bound, not digital. Besides not really having a digital device besides my phone (Portable anyways), I just love physical copies way more. I guess it's a bit of a pack-rat/hoarder mentality, but even still I don't really like digital copies.

The book, and the WD that came out this week, cover a lot of the same. The WD goes over the Chaos that is in the different realms, and it is basically a cursory glance like @Malisteen gave. The Nurgle are infecting much of the Life Realm to destroy it, and the Syvanneth are fighting against that, Khorn is on Fire World being all brutal, Tzeench is Chaosing'up Hysh? I think it's the Realm of Light (Is that a thing?), and Slannesh's cronies are all over the place being all hedonistic. I unfortunately haven't had a chance to read much yet though, so I hardly know the details, that's just what they talked about in the WD.

But it has fairly amazing pictures in the book, and the scenarios have more pages each than the rules, between explaining them and talking about the encounter's fluff. It's pretty nice looking though, that's for sure.
 
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