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Are Vampires only human?

Ghouly

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knowledge of Dark magic used to create necromancy was stolen from the Dark Elves through torture,
 

Shareya

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I am just going to burst your bubble. If you are speaking of the Fay Enchantress? Morgiana Le Fay? She was a human.
 

Menkeroth

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Technically all creatures can be turned into a vampire with the help of the Blood Kiss, vampires are not a race or nation, it's style, so to speak, of living first of all. The most logical explanation is that GW authors rarely think beyond known stereotypes like that one about vampires being usually humans.
 

Get of W'soran

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Technically all creatures can be turned into a vampire with the help of the Blood Kiss, vampires are not a race or nation, it's style, so to speak, of living first of all. The most logical explanation is that GW authors rarely think beyond known stereotypes like that one about vampires being usually humans.
Actually the argument was always based on the fact that the Elixir Neferata invented that made people into vampires was based on human physiology which is completely different from other races and as such it didn't effect elves or dwarves.

I used to agree with that but now a days I don't particularly care either way, I think it'd be cool if elvish and dwarvish vampires were just really rare :tongue:
 

Menkeroth

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It is possible, because, as it is said in the armybook, the path of Necromancy is usually for humans, but nothing was said about turning into vampires and it is quite logical, as a matter of fact. Blood Kiss is Dark Magic incarnate and modern vampires have very little in common with the original ones.
 

Get of W'soran

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The Blood Kiss is dark magic however it is also alchemical.

I don't see why you would see it as illogical? (Unrealistic sure but not illogical) In the world of warhammer it's perfectly logical. There's a certain amount of the elixir in each vampire. Nefereta being the first has the most and is the most powerful, after her are the Master Vampires all made by her via a ritual of some kind.

The further you go from the original source (Nefereta) the weaker the vampire becomes because there is lesser of the elixir in them, the source of vampirism itself becoming less potent.

And newer vampires are exactly like the Originals. They all bear the traits of their line's progenitor but are merely shadows of their forebears because of the reason above.


Also the path of Necromancy is usually for humans yes but for the most part that's a pretty null and void point. Sure many Necromancers would serve Vampire Lords in the hope of getting sired but we know a great deal of the vampires were sired against their will, so their ability or wish to follow the arcane path of Necromancy doesn't really come into it.
 

Menkeroth

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And newer vampires are exactly like the Originals. They all bear the traits of their line's progenitor but are merely shadows of their forebears because of the reason above.
Yes, you are right, as in general also. But. Modern vampires have changed, have they not? They are not Nehekharans anymore, they wear gothic armor, wield longswords and command all manner of night creatures the ancient vampires couldn't even think of. They are part of the Empire with all that follows and so, even if Vlad is indeed Vashanesh, he's changed beyond all comparison. All of them are not just enhanced humans like the ancient ones were, but horrible monsters of Undeath being swallowed by the Dark Magic. Am I not right? So why not to have vampires of the other races since it's not a race anymore but a some kind of lifestyle?
 

Get of W'soran

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But there are powers and abilities, the nature of what they are and their vampirism is no different than the vampires of the past.

Different culture? Yes.

Different garments, languages, lands? Yes.

But their powers? What they are capable off? The nature of how the curse has changed them? Exactly the same.

As such the curse itself, the blood kiss and everything that makes the vampires works the same as it did in the time of Lahmia, and as such the theory that the elixir which pumps through their veins which changes the person into a vampire is only capable of making humans into vampires.


That's the theory anyway, it's mentioned in some of the older Black Library novels I believe and in Liber Necris. A lot of lore has changed though (e.g. Vashanesh never existed now) so it could well be possible, however we can't say for certain until we get an example of an elvish vampire.
 

The Dread King

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however we can't say for certain until we get an example of an elvish vampire.
End Times gave us this - it's not said how or when, but the elven princess Eldyra became a vampire. Oh, and later she became the elven god of death, but that's a different story.
 

Get of W'soran

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@The Dread King Oh yes that's right, I wonder if it will go into how she was made one. I, personally, hope it was done via some sort of ritual rather than the normal blood kiss

Regardless the whole "Human only Elixir in the blood" theory was largely based on older lore anyway.

Yeah if you read the newer Black Library novels he's not mentioned at all (although there's one person mentioned who might be the new version of Vashanesh, or at least the progenitor of the von Carsteins).

And we know that Vlad was from Nehekhara since in the End Times stuff he's shown to have memories stretching back that far.

It's been mentioned in this forum a few times.

And I am just going to add it here too. I poked and the authors where told by GW to write out Vash.


Edit: You like old lore and prefer to follow it? Fine.
Don't claim that because you like the old lore more it is more viable due to being old. Like said in the other thread most games and fantasy/sci-fi settings get their lore adjusted/changed/improved. And yeah I can admit not everyone (myself included) will always like the changes.
Just to emphasize the point, Shar got in touch with the Authors herself to check to make sure the new novel stuff was part of the new lore as decided by GW, she was told all the story directions where the choice of GW themselves so it's official.



There are also other references to it by other posters but I think the above is pretty absolute.
 

Menkeroth

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That's not good! Not good at all. I wonder why they have decided to do so? What was bad in Vashanesh? It means that, at least formally, von Carsteins have no progenitor...
 

Get of W'soran

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I think they want to go back to the way it was originally with the von Carsteins, basically a big load of mystery about their origins.

I don't mind personally, I always found the vague explanation that Vlad was Vashanesh a little dull.
 

Get of W'soran

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Why, if I may ask?
I always found "Random dude shows up, Nefereta gushes over him so hard that she marries and makes him a vampire" thing sort of silly.

Then the "rebels against Nagash and fakes his death" story being a bit shallow, especially since it's suppose to be impossible to break Nagash's hold over vampires if he's already caught you (.e.g. Nefereta, the strongest of vampires, had to travel the whole way from Strigos to the Silver Pinnacle before the mere shard of Nagash within his crown lost it's influence over her.


Then he just goofed off for a few millenia before deciding "Ah that Sylvania place is nice, I shall call it mine".


The story never made much sense, I don't mind Vlad being the progenitor of the line but a half-decently thought out backstory would be nice.
 

Shareya

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The story never made sense and people just defended it because they thought it would take away from Vlad if it got removed. Personally I loathed it because it took away much from Neferata and I dare to go as far as to call it sexist. Yeah, that bad.
 

Menkeroth

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Sounds logical, I have to agree. But in this regard only Neferata was quite a good made character (well, maybe W'soran also), for Ushoran was not that developed (and so I personally don't mind his death in Mourkain). Vashanesh had some potential, and he was the most loyal vampire and servant of Nagash besides Arkhan, was he not?
 

Get of W'soran

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Not really, we just know that he led the vampiric forces but nothing much was ever said about his loyalty, I mean in the old lore he faked his death to betray Nagash so he clearly wasn't that loyal.


In the newer stuff the only Vampire Masters who served Nagash were Ushoran and W'soran, they were "loyal" to a degree but neither were ever particularly treated well nor where they overly happy.
I think the way it was shown was that W'soran saw Nagash as a God but in after his death, in hindsight, he wasn't that great.
Ushoran never thought of him as a god because he saw the Great Necromancer at times when no one else did because he was so ignored, to the point that when Nagash sent all his servants away after the Great Ritual (from fear of them taking advantage of his weakness) that he forgot to send away Ushoran who saw Nagash get killed.

We now have more fluff on Ushoran than we ever did on Vashanesh (even if we still don't know exactly how he died in accordance to the new lore - curse you Black Library) and it's infinitely more interesting in my opinion.
 

Menkeroth

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Well, that's definitely possible, yes. Everyone takes what he likes most. Definitely all of the bloodlines progenitors are interesting in their own way. But what I'd like to say is that Vlad is one of the best and most badass characters in the whole Old World and if he could be Vashanesh would be good because quite a decent vampire and character could be turned into a really great one. In this case Vashanesh could stand with the others and be equal to them. Especially when remembering that the von Carsteins are the true aristocracy of the night.
 

Shareya

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One of the few reasons Vlad was the most badass in ye olden days was because he was the only one with real fluff.
 

Get of W'soran

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I still feel Vlad is one of the most (if not the most) "badass" vampire from Lore but, personally, I don't see the old Vashanesh fluff adding to that. (Largely because it was terribad).

Anyway Nagash said Vlad iz da best so clearly it is so, it's not like the old bag of bones has been wrong before...right? :tongue:
 

Menkeroth

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One of the few reasons Vlad was the most badass in ye olden days was because he was the only one with real fluff.
Maybe, but still, he really rocks, though one might say Mannfred rocks more (and to some extent, definitely).
I still feel Vlad is one of the most (if not the most) "badass" vampire from Lore but, personally, I don't see the old Vashanesh fluff adding to that. (Largely because it was terribad).
It's just a matter of ways, I think. GW authors seldom write decently now, but if they try a bit harder, maybe they could write a good fluff on Vashanesh - smth like he went through lots of events that changed him that much to become the first Vampire Count. Why not, after all?
Anyway Nagash said Vlad iz da best so clearly it is so, it's not like the old bag of bones has been wrong before...right? :tongue:
Indeed! :D
 

Malochai

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End Times gave us this - it's not said how or when, but the elven princess Eldyra became a vampire. Oh, and later she became the elven god of death, but that's a different story.
Just to clear THIS up - Eldyra was never a vampire, as far as I can tell from the Khaine fluff. The following, I believe, backs this up -

Khaine - Chapter Two/Storm and Sorrow

'There, she often conversed with Princess Eldyra of Tiranoc, sole survivor of Eltharion's attempt to rescue the Everchild, who had been captured at the whim of Mannfred von Carstein. Eldyra and her jailors believed that Mannfred had afflicted her with his blood's curse; her spirit was cold as ice, shadowy creatures lurked ever on the edge of her vision and the voices of the dead haunted her like waking dreams ... Only when she had earned a measure of Eldyra's confidence, did the goddess speak of what had truly transpired. The same ritual by which Nagash had wrested death magic from the Great Vortex had also destroyed Ereth Khial, te elven goddess of the dead, and in the aftemath her divine remnants had been bound to Eldyra's mortal form. Now, just as Tyrion had become an avatar of Khaine, Eldyra was slowly inheriting the Pale Queen's mantle. The voices Eldyra heard were those of lately-slain elves who had escaped Slaanesh's maw, and the shadowy creatures were the rephallim that had guided them to her.'
Soooo ... Even in the End Times, when everything goes to hell, doesn't break the unspoken GW rule against non-human vampires. Personally, I wouldn't mind and was even slightly pleased at the idea of Eldyra being given the Blood Kiss, but it wasn't to be. Instead of becoming a vampire, she became the host for the last parts of a dead goddess :thumbsdown:
 

Demian

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Hello everyone!

About Eldyra, I too remember that passage from the Khaine book, and it suggested that she went on with Araloth to form the new heaven in the other world.

The problem is, I also remember (although vaguely) that Eldyra is mentioned in the 5th End Times campaign book (which is somewhat the "official" side of the story, as opposed to the novels). I'd need to double-check this, because I do remember the fluff in the Lord of the End Times novel, as it is very clear she was a vampire there, but that is not the cannonical version of many parts of the story.

Last, I also remember that only humans should become vampires, because that was the only race preocupied by mortality. Elves where very long-lived and Dwarfs just didn't have the head to contemplate wanting to live forever or extending their lives beyond their own. Eldyra was the first I heard to be forced to become a vampire and even Vlad speaks to her about how she must feed or she'd become a Vargheist or a Varghulf.
 
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