BA - 8th Edition Review: Blood Dragons

[Disciple of Nagash]

The same as Legion of Nagash, we are going to review one Bloodline at a time.

Unlike the other thread we can change a little more than updating for the 8th edition, as we have some playtesting info.However we need to have good reason to change things, not just change for the hell of it.

So lets start.

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Current Blood Dragon Stat Changes, Powers & Optional Army List
+2WS
Generates -1 spell (hero's will only know IoN)
Full Plate Armour plus one of the following:
HW & Shield
Greatweapon
2x HW
Lance & Shield if mounted.

Challenges: Blood Dragons must issue challenges / accept challenges wherever possible.

Mounts: Since Dreadknight is no longer an option, a BD Vampire may take one of the following options:
- Nightmare at +10pts
- Barded Nightmare at +15pts

Strength of Steel - 10pts
Such is the vampire's martial prowess that he is able too strike at the precise moment when it will cause the most carnage.
The Vampire has +1 strength the turn he charges.

Horse Master - 15pts
The bond between this knight and his steed is unbreakable. Such is his example that his fellow knights cannot but help follow him.
If riding a barded mount the model does not suffer the -1 restriction to their movement due to the barding. If in a unit of Knights the benefit is also conferred on the unit.

Honour or Death - 20pts 25pts
Many have regretted accepting a challenge from a creature of death.
Any model who issues a challenge that is accepted by a vampire with the above power, or accepts a challenge must take a Ld test at -1, using it's own Ld characteristic. If failed they must act as if they refused a challenge as per the BRB. Does not affect units that are ItP.

Defender - 20pts
The warrior can create a wall of glittering steel that none but the most skilled can pass
One model in BtB contact able to strike the vampire looses one attack, which may take the model down to zero attacks.

Master-strike - 45pts 55pts
Such are the power of this vampires blows, one strike can tear his foe asunder
The vampire has the Heroic Killing Blow special rule and may re-roll any to wound rolls.

Red Fury - 50pts
As per the VC Book

Unliving Legend - 55pts
Such are the tales of this vampire, his follows obey his every word and would lay down their life for him
Any Blood Knight unit joined by this character are not forced to charge or pursue as per the normal rules for frenzy, though they still gain the additional attacks. They will automatically pass any restraint tests. In addition the Look Out Sir roll may be re-rolled if failed and works as long as there is 1 Blood Knight model remaining.

Unliving Legend - 45 pts
Such are the tales of this vampire, that his mere presence in combat can greatly sway its outcome.
One per army. Any wounds caused by this character will count as 2 wounds for combat resolution purposes. Any unit which loses combat vs. this character, or a unit containing this character, can not claim to be steadfast. (In a challenge the overkill bonus would be capped at 10).

Master of Blades - 100pts
This vampire has trained purely in combat for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and has unmatched in combat save for Abhorash himself. However such is his pride that he will not sully his skills by using magical weapons.
The vampire has WS10, I10 whilst in combat only, +2A, may re-roll misses in combat and also has the Killing Blow special rule. He knows one less spell than he normally would.The vampire has ASF and WS10. He also has I10 whilst in combat only. For every initial attack that causes an unsaved wound he may make TWO additional attacks. However the vampire can never take magical weapons.


New Options

The Blood Dragon General may take a retinue of Blood Knights or Black Knights. The unit costs exactly the same as per the VC book, but does not take up a special slot, and in the case of Blood Knights, do not count towards the 1 per 1000 limitation. If this option is taken, the General and unit cannot willing separate in battle, and if forced to do so must rejoin one another as soon as possible.

Any Blood Dragon Vampire may take a unit of Black Knights as his retinue. They follow the same rules / costs as normal however they are taken as a core choice (that doesn't count towards minimum core). If this option is chosen the vampire cannot willingly separate from them in battle, and if forced to do so must rejoin one another as soon as possible.

Core
Skeletons
Skeleton Veterans (see rules below)
~ Limitation: 1 unit may be taken per Skeleton unit.
Grave Guard
~Limitation: 1 unit may be taken per taken Skeleton unit, however it does not fill up a required core slot. count towards 25% minimum Core.
Dire Wolves
~Does not fill required core slot. count towards 25% minimum Core.

Special
Black Knights
Blood Knights
~Limitation:1 unit per 1000pts, excluding Generals retinue if applicable.
Batswarms
Fell Bats
0-1 Spirit Hosts

Rare
Wraiths
Blood Monks

New Units

Skeletal Veterans -10 pts/model

Stat line - M4 - WS3 - BS2 - S3 - T3 - I5 - A1 - Ld3
Unit Size – 10+

Options:
Normal Skeleton Warrior options as well as the following option:
Halberds +1pt per model

The number of Skeletal Veteran units can not exceed the number of Skeleton Warrior units.

Special Rules:
Undead
Hardened Warriors

Hardened Warriors:
<insert fluff>
Skeletal Veteran units gain double their normal rank bonus for purposes of determining if Steadfast applies.


Blood Monks - 70pts per model

M6 - WS5 - BS5 - S5 - T4 - I5 - A2 - Ld7

Unit size: 3-10

Weapons and Armour:
Hands and Feet and Fangs (hand weapon)
Dragon's Bite;
A deadly weapon used exclusively by the Blood Monk order. A heavy tipped spear with a short shaft, to the end of the shaft there is a strong rope which enables a quick retrieval. In the hands of a well trained monk this weapon is just as precise as it is deadly.
Range: 6" , Strength: As user, Quick to fire, Killing Blow.
In addition this weapon is used in combat where it counts as a hand weapon that confers the Killing Blow ability.

Special Rules:

Undead
Vampire
Skirmishers

"Mind your surroundings..."
Through meditation and hard training the monk's mind is so in-tuned with his surroundings it is virtually impossible to catch him off guard. The many years constant and relentless training ensures that Hand to hand combat comes as naturally as breathing
Has ASF. Additionally the monks have a 4+ ward save.

Leaping blood strike
The balance between animalistic feriocity and acrobatic grace of these undead warrior monks goes beyond the capabilities of any mortal.
Blood Monks have the Swiftstrider special rule. Additionally if they charge, all Monks that are in a position to strike make 1 impact hit at their basic strength.

Loyalty to the Clan
Whilst Blood Monks may fight for others they never truly trust them. They are a force apart and will allow only those of their clan to fight by their side
No characters may join Blood Monk units. Additionally Blood Monks may never use another characters leadership for any reason (such as the General) nor may the benefit from the Battle Standard Bearer

Options:

Upgrade one Blood Monk to Abbot for +25pts. The Abbot as +1I, +1A and his Dragon's bite (both ranged and close combat) benefits from the Heroic Killing Blow special rule.

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Playtesting Comments
Main Comments:

• Does the ability to have a vampire Lord with such a high WS, combined with the armour really balance by just loosing one spell?
• Quicksilver combined with this Bloodline creates some very OP Heros, with the ability to have 5 attacks.
• Blood Dragons should be forced to issue and accept challenges.
• Is strength of steel combined with a lance or GW to make S8 over powered? Perhaps undercosted, or should not be combined with items such as GW?
• Horse Master – Possibly undercosted, as combined with a Lord in a unit of Blood Knights, makes them much more manoeuvrable for such little points.
• Unliving Legend seems OP. It means that Blood Knights have their one main weakness taken away, combined with Horse Master and some banners and it creates a very OP deathstar.
• The Blood Dragon army list is much more bland compared to the others. It has no new units, and means that most armies will be much the same. At least one unique unit needs creating.
• Error with weapon options – when vampire chooses Lance and Shield, he should also get barding for his mount

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

Note: As Dreadknight is no longer an option the cost for a Barded nightmare is +10pts.

Defender - 20pts
The warrior can create a wall of glittering steel that none but the most skilled can pass
One model able to strike the vampire looses one attack, which may take the model down to zero attacks.

Unliving Legend - 55pts
Such are the tales of this vampire, his follows obey his every word and would lay down their life for him
Any Blood Knight unit joined by this character -Delete here- are not forced to charge or pursue as per the normal rules for frenzy, though they still gain the additional attacks. They -to here- will automatically pass any restraint tests. In addition the Look Out Sir roll may be re-rolled if failed and works as long as there is 1 Blood Knight model remaining.


New Options

Core
Skeletons
Grave Guard
~Limitation: 1 unit may be taken per taken Skeleton unit, however it does not fill up a required core slot. Not count to core points?
Dire Wolves
~Does not fill required core slot.Not count to core points?

Special
Black Knights
Blood Knights
~Limitation:1 unit per 1000pts, excluding Generals retinue if applicable. limited enough by allowed special points?
Batswarms
Fell Bats
0-1 Spirit Hosts

Rare
Wraiths

I have a few concerns about the master of the blades being combined with the bloodbath sword for 9 attacks...rerolling to hit!

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, one thing looking at the list is that is has received a big downgrade in power compared to the 7th edition. It's main strength was it's cav, which can no longer wipe through units like the use to.

Here are are my thoughts, taking into account previous feedback and 8th edition changes.

Blood Dragons must issue challenges / accept challenges wherever possible.

Strength of Steel - I see no problems whatsoever in this power.

Horse Master - Was previously thought to be unbalanced, mainly due to the fact it was low cost for a major bonus. I agree in the 7th it was. In the 8th I am not sure. To stand a chance a BD army is going to need to be maneuverable. Perhaps a slight increase to 20pts but I think it is more balanced in this edition.

Honour or Death - I think this test should be changed to the test being against models base Ld (-1)- the change in the 8th to possible extending a general's leadership & BSB re-rolls can really negate this powers impact.

Defender - Agree with CRD amendment.

Master Strike - I think this is ok?

Red Fury - Still fine

Unliving Legend - The other power that was largely accused of being over powered. I think with the changes of frenzy this has been effectively fixed. In fact such is the change I think it warrants a point reduction or perhaps a re-write.

Master of Blades - No longer worth its points. The cost of the bonuses as shown by the general magic items does not seem to be worth it, especially when you could potentially create a nastier lord with some of the lower powers couple with some of the magic items. I suggest we totally rewrite this power into something very powerful, but like wise limit the vampires magic weapons, for example:

Master of Blades - 100pts
This vampire has trained purely in combat for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and has unmatched in combat save for Abhorash himself. However such is his pride that he will not sully his skills by using certain magical items
The vampire has ASF, WS10, I10 whilst in combat only, and +1A. For every attack that causes an unsaved wound he may make another attack, he can carry on doing this until he fails to cause an unsaved wound. However the vampire can only take magic items that are either dispel scrolls, confer magic resistance or negate the magic abilities / items og the enemy (I think this bit needs cleaning a bit).

Something like that, an effect that can't be replicated but is very potent.

I some other suggestions, but lets see what you all think of these first.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

For master of the blades I don't like the idea of infinate redfury really at all. I'd much rather have something like a dodge save (5+ ward) or killing blow or rerolls to wound (rerolling to hit and wound is a nasty combination).

I also considered that it might be nice to put heroic killing blow on master strike.

I think unliving legend needs a complete overhaul, with a Ld 10 lord (I say lord because the power costs 55 pts atm) and a bsb there is no need to the rerolls for restrain rolls, the only bit really worth it is the LoS bit and that isn't worth 55 points at all.

 

[Bishop]

I concur that overall this is largely fine the way it is.

I also agree that the 2 higher-end powers both need (complete?) re-writes....

 

[Vengeance Crusader]

Just a few quick ideas:

What about making one of the top end powers grant 'Heroic Killing Blow'?

And make Unliving Legend do this:
One per army, The Vampire MUST be the army general. On the turn he charges, the Vampire adds +D6 to combat resolution.

What do you think?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Just a few quick ideas:

What about making one of the top end powers grant 'Heroic Killing Blow'?

And make Unliving Legend do this:
One per army, The Vampire MUST be the army general. On the turn he charges, the Vampire adds +D6 to combat resolution.

What do you think?

I really like this idea. It adds a real punch (which is what is needed for cav), the only question is, is it worth 55 pts as you could only roll 1. Perhaps make it more reliable like D3+2 CR?

Master Strike – Could we add Heroic Killing Blow and increase the cost to a round 50pts perhaps?

Master of Blades – I really think this power needs to exemplify the Blood Dragon martial mastery…..hmmm how about something like this?

The vampires is WS10 and I10 whilst in combat. In addition at the start of every round of combat the vampire can choose a martial style to fight in:

Fluffy Name – The vampire gains +3 attacks and may re-roll any missed to hit rolls
Fluffy Name – The vampire reduces his attacks to 2, but double his strength to 10, each unsaved wound causing D3 wounds.
Fluffy Name – The vampire strikes last, however all to hit and to wound rolls against him suffer from a -1 modifier and he has a 3+ ward against wounds inflicted in close combat only.

 

[Vengeance Crusader]

I think that Master Strike needs to be 55pts, SPECIFICALLY so that Red Fury cannot be taken in combination- as I feel this would make a too good combination- these two powers together I feel would make the rest of the powers a little redundant.

I think that unliving legend should be 30pts with the +D6 combat res.

Master of blades I reckon should be 75pts and give I10 and WS10, with an additional 4+ Ward in close combat.

DoN- I reckon that a power being able to give fighting styles it a bit toooooooo...erm...'flashy' for a power- if you get me?

Just my thoughts, also, I remember reading about the Blood Dragon list being called 'bland' with no army wide rules etc..SO i had a tohught and here are some ideas I came up with:

Unholy Vengenace:
Bound to their overlord by Blood, Honour and Steel, where the loss of their commander would envoke sorrow in a mortal warrior, such loss provokes supernatural hatred- the vampire lord's thralls entering a killing frenzy butchering all in their path until their master is avenged.

If the vampire counts' general is slain, all units and characters with the 'vampire' rule immediately gain hatred and frenzy, this frenzy cannot be lost.

Honourable Blood:
While many vampires choose not to show preferance in the source of their sustinance, preying on helpless women, animals and even corpses- this is not the way of the Blood Dragon. Following the creed of Abhorash, Blood Dragons will only feed on those they have slain themselves in honourable combat- draining the still warm blood of a fallen champion before returning to the fray.

If a model with the 'vampire' rule slays an adversdary in a challenge, then the now dead champion/character's 'home unit' may not be 'steadfast' this turn- it is most disheartening to watch as your commander's lifeblood is drained. In addition the vampire who won the challenge (and any unit he is with) will automatically opt to 'restrian' if any unit breaks from them that turn- the vampire is either too busy gorging himself on blood, or is happy to let the cowards run.

What do you think???

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I think that Master Strike needs to be 55pts, SPECIFICALLY so that Red Fury cannot be taken in combination- as I feel this would make a too good combination- these two powers together I feel would make the rest of the powers a little redundant.

Yes I can see that as well and would agree with that, providing we change the Killing Blow to Heroic Killing Blow.

I think that unliving legend should be 30pts with the +D6 combat res.

I agree on lowering the points to replace the Master lower point value. However I disagree with +D6 CR, as I said a poor roll leaves you with just +1CR. I would prefer D3+1 or +2. Ideally I would say make it 40pts, D3+2, and that the vampire doesn’t have to be the general. However it can only be taken once.

Master of blades I reckon should be 75pts and give I10 and WS10, with an additional 4+ Ward in close combat.

DoN- I reckon that a power being able to give fighting styles it a bit toooooooo...erm...'flashy' for a power- if you get me?

I do understand, however I very much disagree on this point. Firstly all the final powers are 100pts (that is the same for each bloodline), so that needs to stay the same. In regards to the power, for 100pts I think it deserves to be something flashy. It is at least different and worth its points, whilst still leaving the other powers as viable options.

Just my thoughts, also, I remember reading about the Blood Dragon list being called 'bland' with no army wide rules etc..SO i had a tohught and here are some ideas I came up with:

Unholy Vengenace:
Bound to their overlord by Blood, Honour and Steel, where the loss of their commander would envoke sorrow in a mortal warrior, such loss provokes supernatural hatred- the vampire lord's thralls entering a killing frenzy butchering all in their path until their master is avenged.

If the vampire counts' general is slain, all units and characters with the 'vampire' rule immediately gain hatred and frenzy, this frenzy cannot be lost.

Hmm, I do quite actually like this – the only question is whether it is too powerful perhaps. It could give combat monsters even further boosts which could be inbalancing. I like the concept but I think it needs tweaking / toning down. Not sure what others think?

Honourable Blood:
While many vampires choose not to show preferance in the source of their sustinance, preying on helpless women, animals and even corpses- this is not the way of the Blood Dragon. Following the creed of Abhorash, Blood Dragons will only feed on those they have slain themselves in honourable combat- draining the still warm blood of a fallen champion before returning to the fray.

If a model with the 'vampire' rule slays an adversdary in a challenge, then the now dead champion/character's 'home unit' may not be 'steadfast' this turn- it is most disheartening to watch as your commander's lifeblood is drained. In addition the vampire who won the challenge (and any unit he is with) will automatically opt to 'restrian' if any unit breaks from them that turn- the vampire is either too busy gorging himself on blood, or is happy to let the cowards run.

]

Again like this one, however I think this should be an option, i.e the vampire can choose to feed and make the enemy unit loose the steadfast rule or he can pursue after them.

 

[Vengeance Crusader]

RE: Unholy Vengenace-
Fair point DoN, however I dont think it would be overpowered when you consider that it would come into effect AFTER you have lost your general- something that would hurt Blood Dragons more than the other armies I think since they rely on (in the fluff) on having more smaller 'elite' forces...

Perhaps making crumbling nastier for Blood Dragons may remedy and unbalence?
-1 Ld to any crumbling??? (representing a Blood Dragon's inferior grasp of magic- by fate or design).

RE: Honourable Blood
Blood Dragons need to be able to be the absolute masters (potentially) of duels, something that I think could unbalence them. My idea with this was that it kinda restores the balence. Giving your opponent's unit a chance to escape, reform, and think about their next move.

So I hope you can uderstand my reasoning behind what *might* seem like some crack-pot schemes. lol.

One more thing,
On the subject of army composition- how about having Blacks Knights as core that come with barding and are 25pts a Knight?

I do like the idea of being able to have one core Grave Guard unit for every unit of skeletons, could make some really intresting armies

On the face of it, it seems a little overpowered BUT, then you look at the other elite combat armies (Warriors of Chaos spring to mind, who have Chaos Warriors as Core :S).

 

[Bishop]

Master-Strike - 55pts with Heroic KB and reroll to hit

I suggest something like this for Master of Blades (It's a lot cleaner). Unlimited extra attacks is also a bad idea.

Master of Blades choice A - 100pts
This vampire has trained purely in combat for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and has unmatched in combat save for Abhorash himself. However such is his pride that he will not sully his skills by using magical weapons
The vampire has ASF, WS10, I10 whilst in combat only, +2A, and Red Fury. However the vampire can never take magical weapons.

Master of Blades choice B - 100pts
This vampire has trained purely in combat for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and has unmatched in combat save for Abhorash himself. However such is his pride that he will not sully his skills by using magical weapons
The vampire has ASF, WS10, I10 whilst in combat only, +2A, and Master-Strike. (using the Heroic KB addition)

For Unliving Legend, how about something like this?

Unliving Legend - 40-50 pts (unsure on the point cost for this, but I'd guess somewhere in this range)
One per army. Any wounds caused by this character will count as 2 wounds for combat resolution purposes. Any unit which loses combat vs. this character, or a unit containing this character, can not claim to be steadfast.

** Also note: We shouldn't really be adding any "new" powers as such. Just fixing the ones that were "broken" due to the release of the new rules set. **

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I dislike those options Bishop, purely becuase it uses exisiting powers in their make up. It makes the player lean more towards taking those options over the other powers.

If my suggestion was too complicated, fair enough, but I think we should make the powers unique. However it does seem we agree on the following:

ASF, WS10, I10 whilst in combat only, +2A, no magical weapon. I am ok with that, we just need to add something to it to make it worth it's 100pts

 

[Bishop]

I guess I was editing after you posted, so go read Unliving Legend suggestion!

Also, I was thinking of having Heroic Killing Blow on Master of Blades, but not on the lesser power. This could change them slightly.

Also note. Only Lord would be able to take the 100 pt powers, obviously. If you wanted the nice bonuses plus Master Strike/Red Fury then you'd take Master of Blades. However, if you wanted to use a magic weapon with either of those, you'd have to take the lower end power, and forego the stat bonuses... I think it would still work out fine.

Or how about this then:
Master of Blades choice C - 100pts
This vampire has trained purely in combat for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and has unmatched in combat save for Abhorash himself. However such is his pride that he will not sully his skills by using magical weapons.
The vampire has ASF, WS10, I10 whilst in combat only. For every initial attack that causes an unsaved wound he may make TWO additional attacks. However the vampire can never take magical weapons.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Yeah I like option C best.

So I think we should go for the Master Strike having the Heroic KB and upping to 50pts, Master of Blades changed to option C as you stated, and I like your version of Unliving Legend. It actually means the vampire has to live up to his legend to produce the extra CR. I think in that case he should not be limited by max overkill if he is in a challenge.

 

[Bishop]

Well, Master Strike with Heroic KB needs to be 55 pts, for reasons already discussed.

So, here's a summary of changes that we seem to (more or less) agree on/need to vote on:

Challenges: Blood Dragons must issue challenges / accept challenges wherever possible. (this was an oversight in the original design process)

Mounts: Since Dreadknight is no longer an option, a BD Vampire may take one of the following options:
- Nightmare at +10pts
- Barded Nightmare at +15pts
(This is based on normal progession... and IMO, both options should be available)

Defender - 20pts
The warrior can create a wall of glittering steel that none but the most skilled can pass
One model able to strike the vampire looses one attack, which may take the model down to zero attacks.

Honour or Death - 25pts (change points to 25, due to slight increase in power?)
Many have regretted accepting a challenge from a creature of death.
Any model who issues a challenge that is accepted by a vampire with the above power, or accepts a challenge must take a Ld test at -1, using it's own Ld characteristic. If failed they must act as if they refused a challenge as per the BRB. Does not affect units that are ItP.


Unliving Legend - 45 pts (unsure on the point cost for this, but I'd guess somewhere around 45-50)
Such are the tales of this vampire, that his mere presence in combat can greatly sway its outcome.
One per army. Any wounds caused by this character will count as 2 wounds for combat resolution purposes. Any unit which loses combat vs. this character, or a unit containing this character, can not claim to be steadfast. (In a challenge the overkill bonus would be capped at 10).

Master-strike - 55pts (needs to be 55pts to prevent stacking with Red Fury)
Such are the power of this vampires blows, one strike can tear his foe asunder
The vampire has the Heroic Killing Blow special rule and may re-roll any to wound rolls.

Master of Blades - 100pts
This vampire has trained purely in combat for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and has unmatched in combat save for Abhorash himself. However such is his pride that he will not sully his skills by using magical weapons.
The vampire has ASF, WS10, I10 whilst in combat only. For every initial attack that causes an unsaved wound he may make TWO additional attacks. However the vampire can never take magical weapons.

 

[Bishop]

Also, I was reading through some of the "playtest" comments.

What if the "lost spell" is chosen after random generation by your opponent? It makes the drawback much harsher. This would only effect Lords, since the Hero should still be forced to take IoN (IMO).

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I agree with all the above except the cost for Master Strike. I think a hero should have access to it. I think we should just add an exception that it cannot be combined with Red Fury.

In regards to the lost spell idea....I think that that would make it too harsh. With the change of magic in the 8th and reduction in power of cavalry (which a Blood Dragon list would be heavily based on normally) the power balance has shifted so for the moment I would suggest it remains how it is.

If we can agree on the powers, then we can then have a look at the army list.

 

[Bishop]

I'm okay with Master Strike at 50pts as long as there are rules to prevent Master-Strike and Red Fury combination.

True enough, with magic being more dominant even the loss of a single spell could be huge. I simply dislike that there's a choice... if I'm playing a certain style of list, some spells are going to be much less useful then others. Maybe opponents choice is too harsh... how would you feel about dropping a "random" spell. (ie. roll after spell generation for the loss of a random spell).

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Or perhaps the player just doesn't roll for the spell in the first place? So a level 3 could only roll for 2 spells?

 

[Bishop]

I'm okay with leaving it simply as -1 spell.

How about adding in the following drawback as well (something like): due to the BD Vampires focus on martial prowess, BD Vampires are not allow to make channeling rolls.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ah yes I fully agree with that, they should not be sat there channelling more magic power.....however I think they should still get dispel dice channelling.

 

[RedDuke]

What about:

-killing blows do not count as inflicted wounds for red fury
-removing the 3 most powerful spells of the vamp list
-channelled dice can only be used to dispel (during player's turn to dispel RIP spells)
-a BD who does not channel can reroll a single to wound roll in that turn

???

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Hmmm not sure about those:

-killing blows do not count as inflicted wounds for red fury
GW has clarified with FAQ that such powers etc do work like this, and I don't think it is too much. The only combo we have to worry about is Red Fury and Master Strike. Stating those two cannot be combined fixes this.


-removing the 3 most powerful spells of the vamp list
I would have to disgree. It adds another complication, plus nerfs the poor Blood dragons too much. They already have -1 spell after all.

-channelled dice can only be used to dispel (during player's turn to dispel RIP spells)
Actually that is not a bad suggestion to show their dislike for magic. Would it over complicate things too much?

-a BD who does not channel can reroll a single to wound roll in that turn
I think this might be feasible, purely because it could mybe show them concentrating on their martial skill rather than summoning magical power?

 

[RedDuke]

Hmmm not sure about those:

-killing blows do not count as inflicted wounds for red fury
GW has clarified with FAQ that such powers etc do work like this, and I don't think it is too much. The only combo we have to worry about is Red Fury and Master Strike. Stating those two cannot be combined fixes this.


-removing the 3 most powerful spells of the vamp list
I would have to disgree. It adds another complication, plus nerfs the poor Blood dragons too much. They already have -1 spell after all.

If you guys do not think it is too much that similar powers work like this, why worrying about the combo? Fluffwise, there is nothing against it. I am sure I missed something here.

On the second point, this could be an alternative to the -1 spell. I would not feel nerfed. On the contrary, less choice means you are sure to get spells that are easy to cast and synergic with your army. This used to happen a lot to me with the old army book. Now magic is different, but still I do not see a vampire that is fluffwise low on magic casting curse of the years here and there.

 

[Danceman]

No hero should have heroic KB. It is an amazing special rule and to be able to kill ANYTHING in the game on a roll of 6 is immense. Now since we're pairing it with re-rolls it just gets better, too good. It is something I think should should be reserved for the most powerful of blood dragons. 55 is a good deal.