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BA - 8th Edition Review: Carsteins

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Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#1
Onto the next list!

As before, changes only permitted either from feedback given or due to 8th edition core rules change:

Bloodline Powers

True Blood - 100pts
"The blood of this vampire flows as powerful and strong as Vashanesh himself"
This vampire may purchase the Carstein ring for 50pts. The roll to see if he is resurrected is automatically passed if/when he dies, though he must be resurrected in a unit as normal. In additional the vampire gains a 4+ ward save.

Master of Storms - 55 points
Such is this vampires power that even the winds and the clouds must submit to him.
Instead of moving in the movement phase the vampire can try to call a storm. Roll a D6, on a 1 nothing happens. On a 2-6 the vampire summons fierce winds. Until the beginning of the vampires next turn all shooting is at a -1 to hit and or warmachines must re-roll their artillery dice, and all flying creatures must use their ground movement. The storm ends if the vampire moves in any way, is engaged in close combat, is wounded or slain.

Beast Affinity - 50pts
The Carsteins have always have an infinity with creatures of the night
Once per battle the vampire use this power at the start of his turn, to summon D3+4 wounds of Dire Wolves. Choose any point within 12", and no closer than 8" to an enemy unit. Place a wolf model on it, and then form the rest of the unit around it. The unit may face any direction and may move as normal. The vampire may also heal D3 wounds per casting of IoN on Dire Wolf units, instead of the normal limit of 1 wound.

The Rightful Ruler - 50pts
"Such is the aura of command this vampire exudes, that others are eclipsed in his presence"
Units within 12" of the Rightful Ruler are unable to benefit from the Generals Ld and/or the BSB reroll ability. Units that are joined by the General and/or BSB still gain the usual benefit(s) conferred by said character(s).

Aura of Command - 25pts
The arrogance of this vampire ensures that the troops under his command never stop
The range of the vampire rule for this character is extended by 6"

Walking Death - 25pts
As per the VC army book

Wolf Form : 20pts
The vampire can change its appearance into a wolf at will
The vampire gains movement 9"

Silver Tongued - 10pts
The charm and wit of the Carsteins is such they can attract other of their own kin to join their cause
Only one vampire may have this power.The player may then choose one vampire from another blood line as one of their hero choices, with the appropriate stat and rule changes, bloodline powers etc. The different bloodline vampire may not be the armies general or BSB.

Optional Army List

Characters
As per VC book except all vampires have the following options:

May choose one following weapon:
Great Weapon: Hero +6pts, Lord +9pts
Additional Hand Weapons Hero +6pts, Lord +9pts
Rapier (see below) Hero +8pts, Lord +12pts
Lance (only if mounted) Hero +6pts, Lord +9pts
2x Duelling Pistols Hero +12pts, Lord +18pts

May choose one of the following:
Heavy Armour Hero +6pts, Lord +9pts
Full Plate +12pts, Lord +18pts

May choose one or both of the following:
Shield Hero +3pts, Lord +5pts
Barding for Nightmare Hero +8pts, Lord +12pts

Rapier
Prideful and arrogant, many Carsteins carry to battle their favoured blade, determined to prove all others are lesser than they
Hand Weapon. In challenges only, the vampire has +1 to hit.

Wight King has the following additional option:
Full Plate +10pts

Core
Skellies
Zombies
Ghouls
Dire Wolves(*)
~ 0-1 unit may be upgraded to scouting at the cost of 2pts per model. The scouting unit has a max unit size of 10 models
Fell Bats (*)
Bat Swarms (*)
~ If the unit is 4 bases or over it blocks LOS
Corpse Cart

Sylvanian Levy: (*)
Crossbowmen - 8pts per model
Archers - 5pts per model
Free Companies - 8 pts per model
0-1 Huntsmen - 10 pts per model
~see end of list for stats & options

*for each unit of Skeletons, Zombies, or Ghouls, you are allowed to select ONE core unit from of Dire Wolves, Fell Bats, Bat Swarms or Sylvanian Levy which will count towards your minimum core.

Special
Grave Guard
~ May not take GW, instead have the option for taking Halberds in addition to their shields for +2pts per model.
~ 0-1 unit may be upgraded to Drakenhof Guard (Full Plate, +1WS, GW, may take a Magical Banner upto 125pts) for +5pts per model.
Spirit Hosts
Black Coachs
~ max 1 per 1000pts
Wraiths

Rare
0-1 Blood Knights
0-1 Varghulfs
Black Knights


Sylvanian Levy

Trooper - M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 6
Sergeant - M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 3 / A 2 / Ld 6
Marksman - M 4 / WS 3 / BS 4 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 6

Crossbowmen:
Equipped with crossbow & HW
Upgrade one model to: Marksman (+5pts), SB (+10pts), Musc (+5pts)

Free Companies:
Equipped with 2x HW
Upgrade one model to: Sergeant (+10pts), SB (+10pts), Musc (+5pts)

Archers:
Equipped with Bow & HW
Upgrade one model to: Marksman (+5pts), SB (+10pts), Musc (+5pts)
Special Rules: Skirmishers

Huntsmen:
Equipped with Bow & HW
Upgrade one model to: Marksman (+5pts)
Special Rules: Skirmishers, Scouts

[hr]

Feedback

  • Rightful ruler – Think that possible it should be limited to Lords only, as against certain opponents it can be very powerful. Possible raise to 55pts? Grish noted that he thought this was over-powered during a WFO game.
  • Quicksilver was again noted as being too cheap or effective.
  • Concerns that Beast Affinity was perhaps too powerful – though nothing concrete or suggested changes.
  • Master of Storms was noted that it was only useful against shooting enemies, and even then overlooked for other options
  • Other than that no complaints, though this list was tested very little – further playtesting is definitely needed.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#2
Right then, what are the thoughts?

Rightful Ruler - was hotly contested in a WFO game between Grish & Bishop. He was playing against O&G, so yes obviously in that case the power was extremely potent. Against other armies such as elves or Dwarves it will not be such an issue. Because of that I don't want to raise the points to much. Perhaps instead of affecting all units in a radius this vampire instead has to focus on one unit?

Master of Storms - I think this power needs to be redone, it is really not worth it at the mo. i would suggest (as someone else did), that we tweak this to allow the player to attempt to cast Chain Lightening in the magic phase, perhaps at a lower casting value, i.e a bound spell.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
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#3
As someone who has played quite a few games with Rightful Ruler (in 7th and 8th), I can state without a doubt that it can be quite powerful versus certain opponents. I agree that raising the point value based on that alone is a bad idea.

One of the suggestions received (twice, actually) is that a Ld penalty is applied instead. Personally, I'm okay with this suggestion, as long as it still has the same "effect". ie. The opposing army is less likely to pass/fight on for their army in the presence of such a leader.

So, given that, I propose the following:

The Rightful Ruler - 50pts
"Such is the aura of command this vampire exudes, that others are eclipsed in his presence"
Enemy units within 12" of the Rightful Ruler are unable to benefit from the BSB reroll ability and suffer -2 on all Leadership based tests. An enemy unit which is joined by the BSB will still gain the usual benefit given the close proximity of the armies banner.

------------------

Other items:

True Blood - To be honest, I never tested this. 150 pts seemed too high a price for my liking.

Master of Storms - I agree, this power is basically useless. I tried it twice. Once the enemy army had no shooting at all, so I didn't use it. The second time was against a army which was about half shooting, but I didn't want to "stand still" long enough to use it. Should be rewritten completely, though I'm not sure that a "bound power" is the best idea... though I do like the concept.

Beast Affinity
The only change that we might want here is to remove the ability to charge on the turn that the Wolves are summoned. If we do that, then it would need to be toned down.

What if the wolves were summoned to a counter, then appeared at the end of the enemies next turn. (ie. before the start of the Vampire next turn). This would allow the Wolves to still be effective, without being overpowered. Almost everything in the game has been stripped of the ability to scout/vanguard and charge... so that lines up. If we choose to go this route, I'd say it could be dropped in points.. slightly (maybe 35-40?)

I think that the rest of the powers are more or less fine.

--------------------

Keeping in line with everything else, I think these should be changed as follows (using the Chaos Lord as a reference point):

May choose one following weapon:
Great Weapon: Hero +8pts, Lord +12pts
Additional Hand Weapons Hero +4pts, Lord +8pts
Lance (only if mounted) Hero +4pts, Lord +8pts

Rapier
Prideful and arrogant, many Carsteins carry to battle their favoured blade, determined to prove all others are lesser than they
(Additional) Hand Weapon. In challenges only, the vampire has +1 to hit.


Everything else looks okay to me. I had no issues, or complaint regarding units, etc.
 
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#4
Hmmm, I wouldn't mind testing this list, should be fun.

On a side note when are the rest of us going to be able to play WFO?
 
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#5
True Blood: I have to agree with Bishop; unlike all the other superpowers, that one just doesn't seem worth the points. I mean, the Carstein ring only has a 1/6 chance to fail anyway, I believe, and I'll admit that the ward save is great...but 100 pts great? eh...not so much in my opinion. Perhaps add in a leadership effect to that, or something else going with the theme of this being one of the "true" Von Carsteins...

Master of Storms: a logical compromise for this one, to me, would be keeping the effect, but making it a bound spell, rather than forcing you to give up all of your movement. Also, for 55 pts I would recommend going with two power levels. The first as written, the second, higher power level making normal shooting impossible, and allowing the Von Carstein player to CHOOSE whether a given artillery dice is rerolled or not, rather than making it a "must be rerolled" situation. Could alternatively add in the Chain lightning effect as the higher caster level instead.

I like the wide range of options for the vampires' armaments. They reflect the Empire-like feel of the army as a whole. Plus I laugh maniacally whenever I think of a vampire with dual pistols. Mwahahaah!...See?

I think I like Bishop's change for rightful ruler as well...will look forward to more opinions on that one, however. It'd still make it pretty brutal against some armies, but not as much as getting rid of the General's LD altogether.

Have some thoughts on the army list, too, but I'll keep those to myself until we're finished with the lords, wot?
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#6
WFO is waiting on our site overhaul, which should be in the next few works hopefully. There will be a load of other new features done at the same time as well.

Onto the powers:

True Blood: Yes I agree, compared to the other high powers, this one seems a bit meh. Considering no one wanted to play test it for that reason, I think it is ok to look at changing it. Maybe something along the lines:

True Blood - 100pts
"The blood of this vampire flows as powerful and strong as Vashanesh himself. His strength of will is absolute and his touch can be felt for leagues around."
A vampire with this power may command D3 friendly undead units to make a normal march move in the movement phase, regardless of distance. Any alive units that are within range of his vampiric aura are unbreakable, and if they in this radius at the start of their turn and fleeing they will automatically rally.
Finally this vampire may purchase the Carstein ring for 50pts. The roll to see if he is resurrected is automatically passed if/when he dies, though he must be resurrected in a unit as normal. In additional the vampire gains a 4+ ward save.

Master of Storms: I like Montesques idea, which to my thinking should be something along the lines of the following:

A vampire with this power knows all the spells from the Lore of Heavens, in addition to IoN (they do not roll for any other spells regardless of their level). In addition they also the following spell:

Tempest 24+
Focusing his dark will the vampire unleashes a terrible storm on the battlefield. Dark clouds cover the sky as hard rain and hail hammers down on the fighting warriors, carrying them away in a torrent of bloody and water
For the next turn no shooting of any kind is allowed, including warmachines. In addition every enemy unit in the battle must roll a D6, on a roll of 1 they have succumbed to the rain and can only move / charge / march at half their normal rate during their next movement phase. Once successfully cast (providing it is not dispelled), this spell cannot be cast again in the same battle.

Beast Affinity - I'm fine with Bishop's suggestion, as long as he works out the actual wording xD
 
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#7
That would DEFINITELY take master of storms from nigh-worthless to worth 55 pts (at least!)

Like the True Blood change, but I think we need to add at the end of the first paragraph of the actual rules: "unless they are below 25% of their starting strength", since normally NOTHING can rally after that point.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
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#8
Hehe... I can work on the actual wording of Beast Affinity (tonight, or this weekend at the latest).

That might make Master of Storms too powerful (given the point cost). Hmm.. on reflection, maybe not. Forbidden Lore is 35 pts and gives the user the lore of choice... this is a fixed selection. I'll ponder that for a while...

...along with the True Blood suggestion. Though, I see no reason to disallow the auto-rallying of troops beyond 25%. In 40k if a unit gained Fearless and they were under rallying strength, they would still auto-rally (ie. a unit of Guardians fleeing into the Avatar's fearless bubble).
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#9
Yeah, that was my thoughts about the Master of Storms. FL is 35pts, so an extra 20 for a one-off spell seemed ok as it is quite potent when it does go off.

As for the True Blood, yes as far as I am concerned, its cost justifies allowing the troops to rally even if they are under 25% of their starting strength. How do you all think of its potency now?

Oh and Montesque, if you have time could you help out over in the Legion of Nagash? It is very much like what we are doing here, and so far your input has been great and would be very welcomed over in the LoN as well.

Cheers xD
 
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#10
Thank you for the positive review :) I love this project, and am glad to see it going so well. I hadn't done anything with LoN previously because it seemed to be a bit further along, and I wasn't sure if I should come in in the middle of things or not. I'll head over there for a look though, soitenly.

and if everyone's cool with doing away with the 25% rallying thing for that power, that's cool. Just wanted to make sure that that was considered before we overruled it. I agree that the point cost makes it feasible, however. Well, that and the fact that very few units, even in this army, will actually be making use of that facet of the power.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
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#11
I have been thinking about the Beast Affinity power (and I've been travelling, so I'm away from home, quite busy, and have no resources on me).

However, what if we changed to work like (read similar, not exactly the same as,) the similar power in the Storm of Chaos book. If anyone has that and can post it, great.. otherwise, I can read/do so when I get back home (which won't be until Friday).
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#12
I don't actually have that book, and I was absent from Warhammer at that time so I don't have any knowledge on the wording - anyone else?
 
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#13
Due to a dark bargain with the asrai(.org), in which I promised to no longer poach their bats and wolves for...experiments, they were kind enough to enlighten me regarding the details in question. The wording is as follows:

"The vampire may use the spell Invocation of Nehek to add to and raise new units of Dire wolves, raising d3/2d3/3d3 wolves according to the power level"

I believe this is a fairly good start, but obviously there are no longer power levels, so I think changing the wording to something along these lines would be appropriate:

"The Vampire may use the spells Invocation of Nehek and Raise Dead to add to or raise new units of Dire Wolves. Invocation of Nehek adds d6 wounds worth of models to a unit, while Raise Dead will raise a new unit of d3 wolves, if the caster so desires, with no minimum frontage or unit size, otherwise using the rules for the spell(s) as normal."
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
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#15
That's not really the one I was thinking of... though maybe combining the 2 of them together might be nice :D

IIRC, there is a power which is used once per game to summon a new unit of Wolves, they arrive from the table edge.
 
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#16
I looked at the Carstein army they had up there from the Storm of Chaos book...and there wasn't anything like that that I saw. There were only two new powers, that one and one that gave the vampire MR 1. Sure you aren't thinking of something else, mebbe?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
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#17
Hmm.. I dunno... maybe. I should be home tmrw night, so i'll have a look then.
 
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#19
Oh, I found what Bishop was talking about.

The power is in the 6th edition army book, one of the Von Carsteing powers allows them to once per game summon a whopping D3 wolves from one table edge...which is pretty much entirely useless since wolves have been nerfed since that edition. I think we'd probably be best served forgetting that altogether, unless we wanted to do D3+4 once per game or something...don't really think it's necessary though, personally.
 
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#20
I won't say too much things on bloodline powers (everyone may know I dislike them), but I would still suggest that if there is a vampire with True blood in the army, then he must lead it.

On the list, just one thing: I found it cool, and it's still adapted to the 8th ed. However, I noticed that it's by far a better list than the VC army book's one: Sylvanian levy is great compared to skellies and zombies, and grant us a shooting phase, Black coach and Wraiths are special units. We don't even lose any unit in the process and still can use many ghouls.

That's right, Blood knights are limited to 0-1, but I don't see someone beeing fool enough to take 2 units of them, and Black Knights are rare units (not sounds too bad however, cause they're pretty useless now). The only real disadvantage is the 0-1 limit on Varghulf, but it's still nothing compared to the new options opened to Von Carsteins.

I like this list, and I still find it balanced regarding to the other books (most of them). But it's better than the army book currently is (which is not that powerful, cause VC are no longer as great as they used to be). This list should give beautiful fights against the actual powerful armies, but it may cut into pieces a classic VC army, imo.

Not sure that's a problem, but I think it's good to keep that in mind.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
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2,887
#21
I agree that if a True Blood von Carstein is present that (s)he MUST be the army general.

Montesque said:
Oh, I found what Bishop was talking about.

The power is in the 6th edition army book, one of the Von Carsteing powers allows them to once per game summon a whopping D3 wolves from one table edge...which is pretty much entirely useless since wolves have been nerfed since that edition. I think we'd probably be best served forgetting that altogether, unless we wanted to do D3+4 once per game or something...don't really think it's necessary though, personally.
Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of... though I seem to remember it being better then that (maybe I was combo-ing it with something else).

Regardless. I'm okay with your suggestion, though it would need to be increased in power level significantly if we wanted it to remain in the 50-ish points range. Or, we could drop it down in point costs. Personally, I think it should Raise a new unit of at least 5 models, any less is completely useless.

I suggest that we go for something that still fits around the mid-range for point costs.

Suggested power:

Beast Affinity - ??? pts
The Carsteins have always have an infinity with creatures of the night.
If this Vampire casts Invocation of Nehek targetting a unit of Dire Wolves then d6 wounds worth of models are raised, otherwise use the rules for IoN as normal.

This Vampire with Beast Affinity also gains the following spell:
Unearthly Howl cast on 8+
Functions exactly as per the rules for Raise Dead, except a unit of Dire Wolves is raised instead.
 
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#22
I'll second both of Bishop's suggestions, regarding True blood and the amendments to my recommendation. After thinking about it I realized before he even posted that the d3 was too weak, so that'll do, wot?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
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#25
Well, Beast Affinity needs a point value. Not sure if it quite lives up to 50 points. An extra spell, and a IoN bonus... 40 points, possibly 45 points?

Also, True Blood wording need a clarification... is the 4+ Ward save dependent on taking the Carstein Ring? (That's how it reads right now... I do not believe that was intended). I'd say that the Ward save is part of the True Blood power.
 
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