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BA - 8th Edition Review: Lahmian

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Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#1
The same as Legion of Nagash, we are going to review one Bloodline at a time.

Unlike the other thread we can change a little more than updating for the 8th edition, as we have some playtesting info. However we need to have good reason to change things, not just change for the hell of it.

So lets start.

[hr]

Current Lahmian Stat Changes, Powers & Optional Army List

Divine Beauty - 100pts
No creature, mortal or otherwise can resist this creatures seduction
Any enemy units that move or appear through other means within 18" of the vampire at anytime (including overrunning), and can draw LOS to the vampire must take a Ld test on -2. If failed the unit must immediately stop, providing it is not in impassable terrain, another unit etc. If it is in such a position the unit must clear the obstruction and then stop. They may also not shoot in the shooting phase for that turn if applicable.
Whenever the unit attempts to move again (including compulsory movement) they must test again if the above conditions are still met. If failed the unit still cannot move. If the unit passes the above Ld test at any time they can move as normal. If they unit is charged at anytime they can fight as normal.
This power does affect units that are ItP


At the start of the enemies turn, any enemy units (including those that are ItP) that are within 18" and have LOS to this vampire must take a Stupidity test at -2.

Whenever (could be either players turn) any enemy units enter into range (18") and have LOS to the vampire then they must take a Stupidity test at -2. If failed the unit must stop immediately, and then suffer the effects of Stupidity.


Midnight Dancer: 50pts
"As the dance continues the onlooking crowd can do naught but to stare in admiration, her dance even deadening the most cold minds as she weaves move after move like a perfect spiders web"
At the start of any combat When any model wishesing to attack the vampire during combat, they must pass a leadership test at -1 LD, even if ItP, unbreakable or otherwise immune to leadership based tests. If failed the model may not make any attacks at all and is hit automatically in combat until the next round of combat.

Aura of Dark Majesty - 50pts
As per the VC Army Book

Innocence Lost- 40 25pts
Who could think such an innocent and fragile creature could pose a threat to them?
Confers the ASF ability

Behind the Scenes - 35 25pts
These beguiling vampires have infiltrated all levels of society, making their presence known when their enemy confronts them.
Roll D6 for each enemy character at the start of the battle. On a roll of 5+ the model looses one wound, no saves of any kind allowed that do not allow armour or regeneration saves. In addition no character can ever be wounded more than once by this power. In the event all characters have suffered a wound by this power, any further instances of this power are wasted.

Seduction - 30pts
Sometimes before battle, a lucky soldier will be visited by a beautiful women offering unearthly pleasures. Only the strongest can resist and see her true nature....
Nominate one enemy character after deployment and roll 1D6. On 2-6 you may redeploy the character in another of the enemies units, following the normal rules for deployment. If the character was not in a unit to begin with, or may not join a unit then he may be moved to anywhere in the enemies deployment area. On a roll of 1 the vampire takes a wound with no saves of any kind allowed. If this power is taken as well as Behind the Scenes, resolve all instances of Behind the Scenes first before resolving this power.

Overflowing Coffers - 15/30pts
Renowned for their hedonism, Lahmians treasure jewelery and horde ancient artifacts. When called to war they can lay their hands on any item imaginable
The Lahmian may take an extra 30pts allowance of magic items, equal to the points that are paid for this power, which may be either 15pts or 30pts

Vanity of the Dead - 25pts
Only the foolish dare hurt a Lahmian, for to hurt their perfect looks will incur a wrath like no other
For each unsaved wound suffered by the Lahmian, she immediately gains an additional attack. These extra attacks are lost if the Lahmian's wounds are healed.

Optional Army List

Characters
Any vampire characters may take the following options (cost per model):
Additional Dagger (counts as additional HW): Hero +5pts, Lord +7pts +8pts
Poisoned Attacks: Hero +10pts, Lord +15pts
Great Bow: Hero +12pts, Lord +18pts
~see below for rules.

Great Bow
Harking back to the days of ancient Lahmia, the daughters of Neferata are required to learn the ways of the Asp goddess, to venerate all that they lost when their city fell. As normal bows are too weak for the prodigious power of the ladies of the night, each sire gifts their get a bow of superior balance and strength, a deadly weapon in the hands of those with the skill to use them.
Follows the normal rules for bows with the following profile:
Range: 36" S: As per the base strength of the vampire.
This can change if the vampire is affected by anything during the battle which lowers or heightens this stat permanently.The vampire may still shoot her bow even if she has marched. It also has the Killing Blow special rule at short range.

Wight King may take the following options (cost per model):
Full Plate +8pts


New Hero Option:
Swain
The player may choose one hero choice from any army list except Daemons,Tomb Kings, Lizardmen, Vampire Counts or Orcs & Goblins, paying the points cost as stated in their army book.
Their equipment and magic items must be chosen from that army list. The swain may not benefit from any VC items or spells from the Lore of Vampires, however the Swain may choose any marks, powers etc that it is normally entitled to in it's army book

Core
1+ Skeletons
~May take the following options (costs are per model):
Halberds +1pts
Spears +1pts
Heavy Armour +2pts. *If this option is taken the unit cannot be increased over its starting size by IoN.

0-1 Swain Entourage
~One core unit may be chosen from the same army list as the swain. It may not choose any magic items, marks, abilities from that army list, nor may it benefit from VC banners or spells from the Lore of Vampires. It may choose any mundane weapon options as per its description its entry in the relevant army book .
The maximum size of this unit US20.

The Harridens (see below for details)
~One unit counts towards core requirement for every unit of skeletons taken.

0-2 Dire Wolves
~Do not count as minimum core requirement.
0-1 Bat Swarms
~Do not count as minimum core requirement.


Special
Grave Guard
~May take the following options (cost per model):
Full plate +3pts
Halberds + 2pts
Great Weapons +2pts

Black Knights.
~May take the following options (cost per model):
Full Plate +4pts

Zombies
Spirit Hosts
0-1 Fell Bats

Rare
0-1 Blood Knights
~May take the following options (cost per model):
Full Plate +6pts

Black Coach
Wraiths

New Units

The Harridans - 10pts
The jealousy of the Lahmians knows no bounds. While any man who stands against one of these beautiful creatures soon finds himself as her thrall, or "swain", women meet a much worse fate. Their minds are broken utterly by the vampires, and these pathetic, shrieking wretches, called "Harridans" by the disdainful Lahmians, are sent before the vampiric armies in a reckless rage, believing that only death can release them from the torments heaped upon them by the vicious sisterhood of vampires.

M 4 - WS 3 - BS 0 - S 4 - T 3 - W 1 - I 4 - A2 - Ld 5

Weapons: Long fingernails, teeth (count as hand weapon)

Unit Size: 10-20
One unit counts towards core requirement for every unit of skeletons taken.

Rules
Undead
Frenzy
Skirmishers

Options: May upgrade one Harridan per unit to a Virago for +10pts. Viragos have +1 toughness
A Virago may be given a Dark Heart for 25pts

Dark Heart
The dark deeds a Harridan is forced to commit by the Lahmians drives some of them insane. Those who have truly been broken screech with such agony that it can shatter minds
The Virago has the Banshee's Howl special rule with the exception that 2D6 is rolled instead of 2D6+2.


[hr]

Playtesting Comments

  • Low cost Bloodline powers are too high, meaning that heroes can generally only take one power.
  • Can Swains join Undead units, or only their entourage?
  • When a unit charges and has LOS to the Divine Beauty, does it first take its fear/terror test or the Divine Beauty test?
  • Does a unit which overruns and has LOS to Divine Beauty have to take the test?
  • And what with stubborn units, do they also suffer the -2 on their Ld?
  • One thing maybe. I find the wording of midnight dancer a bit too complicated. Wouldn’t it be more userfriendly when just stating that models in BtB with the vampire need to take the Ld-test. Cos now one needs to ask his opponent in every combatphase if s/he is going to attack the vampire or not.
  • When combining 'behind enemy scenes' and 'seduction'. Which power takes precedence? Does one first playes 'bes' or 'seduction? I don't see a problem when one has taken 'bes' only once. But when having multiple 'bes' it is possible to take out an enemy character. In that case it is important to know if 'seduction' comes first or second.

~ Added in UNDEAD trait to the new unit.
~ Also, changed Lord xhw option to +8 pts (it should be x1.5 hero cost, rnd up)
~ Bishop
 

Count Lasombra

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#3
I would modify the text of BTS to function like ghoulkin/walking death in that it happens if one OR MORE vamps w/ the ability are present.
I'd have seduction force the enemy unit to deploy as reserves/and resolve it after BTS.
I don't think that swains should be allowed to join other units,but I'd allow them to form an impromptu unit with just the Vampiress,and I'd allow her a look-out sir as long as she's in base contact w/ her swain.
Divine beauty seems a little convoluted to me.I'd change it to "All units w/ LOS to VL w/ this power are subject to stupidity,even if normally ITP." Maybe even make it 75 :perv:
I'd have midnight dancer say"At the beginning of each round of CC nominate one enemy model in base contact.That model must pass a LD test on it's own(unmodified) leadership or be unable to attack this round.This test may not be re-rolled nor does it affect the unbreakable"
Make BTS cost 25 and allow ward saves.
Make overflowing coffers cost 20.
make seduction 25.(as the reserves option)
make Innocence lost 20.ASF ain't what it used to be,the BRB sword is 25 IIRC.
Those are my suggestions based on what is here,I have ideas for other powers as well.Also you should bring back Quicksilver and make it a 5++ for 25.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#4
Wow a lot of changes there.

Remember that we are only changing was is necessary and has been questioned etc. By changing things just for the fun of it we negate all the hard work that was put in previously.

So going through your suggestions based on that:


Count Lasombra said:
I would modify the text of BTS to function like ghoulkin/walking death in that it happens if one OR MORE vamps w/ the ability are present.
The only thing with that is then you are only going to have one vampire with this power in an army. I would instead suggest that we add the wording that an enemy character can only be wounded once by Behind the Scenes. Once all characters have been wounded any further instances of this power are wasted. That way there should be no killing off of characters before the start of the game which is the main issue.

I'd have seduction force the enemy unit to deploy as reserves/and resolve it after BTS.
With the changing of the rules, I can't see any justification from playtesting or 8th edition changes. However an order is needed, and I would agree that it should state in Seductions rules that the power is used once all Behind the Scenes powers have been resolved.

I don't think that swains should be allowed to join other units,but I'd allow them to form an impromptu unit with just the Vampiress,and I'd allow her a look-out sir as long as she's in base contact w/ her swain.
Yes that looks fluffy to me, I would agree. What about their entourage though, you can imagine him joining that, being commanded to do some task by his mistress. I agree that he should not be able to join an undead unit, too many rules complications.

Divine beauty seems a little convoluted to me.I'd change it to "All units w/ LOS to VL w/ this power are subject to stupidity,even if normally ITP." Maybe even make it 75 :perv:
Well firstly we don't want to tone down the power. All the final powers were made a 100pts, so it needs to stay in line with the other bloodline powers. Personally whilst the wording is convoluted, it is only like that to make it clear on how it works, which is actually very simple. If you are LOS & 18" you take a Ld test on -2. You fail you don't move. The fear question does not matter now with the 8th edition, and the overruns question is simple enough to edit in.

I'd have midnight dancer say"At the beginning of each round of CC nominate one enemy model in base contact.That model must pass a LD test on it's own(unmodified) leadership or be unable to attack this round.This test may not be re-rolled nor does it affect the unbreakable"
Doing this actually lowers the use of this power. It is designed to work like the Nightshround, as in any enemies attack the user are affected.......however there is a valid point. The Lahmian will 90% of the time against foes without ASF attack first. However she does not know if any of the enemy models will be auto hit.

Personally instead of nominating just one model (which powers it down too much for me), I would just state the test is taken when the model actually attacks the vampire, not at the start of combat. If it then fails the test, then it suffers as per the rule, and any further attacks on the affected model auto hit.

Make BTS cost 25 and allow ward saves.
I would agree with this, to help fill the low cost option.

Make overflowing coffers cost 20.
Not sure on the reasoning behind this. The extra 30 points worth of magic items is quite potent as it enables to have some combinations that were previously not possible.

make seduction 25.(as the reserves option)
I think making it 25pts with the current rules would be ok. It is good but not that good.

Make Innocence lost 20.ASF ain't what it used to be,the BRB sword is 25 IIRC.
I'm in agreement with this as well.

Those are my suggestions based on what is here,I have ideas for other powers as well.Also you should bring back Quicksilver and make it a 5++ for 25.
Is it really necessary though with access to all the wards in the common item list? Plus to do that we would need to replace a power, we can't add any more. What would you replace?
 

Bishop

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#5
Seduction - should remain 30+ pts... moving/deploying an enemy character can be VERY powerful.

BTS - 25 pts, Ward save, and any given enemy model can only suffer one wound is good.

Also, some order specified for BTS and Seduction is a good idea.

Swain / Swains' unit / any Undead units should not mix... it creates too many complications.

Innocence Lost - 25 pts looks okay to me... keep in mind the ASF will allow rerolls in most cases...that's still a powerful bonus.

Overflowing Coffers - whatever the amount is fine,as long as it's a 1:1 ratio. ie. 20 pts for 20pt in Magic Items... maybe have two options... a 15/15 and a 30/30. (as an example) The lower point option(s) gives a bit more flexiblity.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#6
OK, based on the discussion so far here is what I have:


Divine Beauty - 100pts
No creature, mortal or otherwise can resist this creatures seduction
Any enemy units that move or appear through other means within 18" of the vampire at anytime (including overrunning), and can draw LOS to the vampire must take a Ld test on -2. If failed the unit must immediately stop, providing it is not in impassable terrain, another unit etc. If it is in such a position the unit must clear the obstruction and then stop. They may also not shoot in the shooting phase for that turn if applicable.
Whenever the unit attempts to move again (including compulsory movement) they must test again if the above conditions are still met. If failed the unit still cannot move. If the unit passes the above Ld test at any time they can move as normal. If they unit is charged at anytime they can fight as normal.
This power does affect units that are ItP

Midnight Dancer: 50pts
"As the dance continues the onlooking crowd can do naught but to stare in admiration, her dance even deadening the most cold minds as she weaves move after move like a perfect spiders web"
At the start of any combat When any model wishesing to attack the vampire during combat, they must pass a leadership test at -1 LD, even if ItP, unbreakable or otherwise immune to leadership based tests. If failed the model may not make any attacks at all and is hit automatically in combat until the next round of combat.

Aura of Dark Majesty - 50pts
As per the VC Army Book

Innocence Lost- 40 25pts
Who could think such an innocent and fragile creature could pose a threat to them?
Confers the ASF ability

Behind the Scenes - 35 25pts
These beguiling vampires have infiltrated all levels of society, making their presence known when their enemy confronts them.
Roll D6 for each enemy character at the start of the battle. On a roll of 5+ the model looses one wound, no saves of any kind allowed that do not allow armour or regeneration saves. In addition no character can ever be wounded more than once by this power. In the event all characters have suffered a wound by this power, any further instances of this power are wasted.

Seduction - 30pts
Sometimes before battle, a lucky soldier will be visited by a beautiful women offering unearthly pleasures. Only the strongest can resist and see her true nature....
Nominate one enemy character after deployment and roll 1D6. On 2-6 you may redeploy the character in another of the enemies units, following the normal rules for deployment. If the character was not in a unit to begin with, or may not join a unit then he may be moved to anywhere in the enemies deployment area. On a roll of 1 the vampire takes a wound with no saves of any kind allowed. If this power is taken as well as Behind the Scenes, resolve all instances of Behind the Scenes first before resolving this power.

Overflowing Coffers - 15/30pts
Renowned for their hedonism, Lahmians treasure jewelery and horde ancient artifacts. When called to war they can lay their hands on any item imaginable
The Lahmian may take an extra 30pts allowance of magic items, equal to the points that are paid for this power, which may be either 15pts or 30pts

Vanity of the Dead - 25pts
Only the foolish dare hurt a Lahmian, for to hurt their perfect looks will incur a wrath like no other
For each unsaved wound suffered by the Lahmian, she immediately gains an additional attack. These extra attacks are lost if the Lahmian's wounds are healed.


Right, how does that look?
 

Count Lasombra

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#8
I was just giving a buckshot of ideas,I'm semi-ignorant of the complete format and it seemed you were looking for some feedback.
In alot of instances it was an effort at simplification.Like the MD allowing auto-hits..you will hit them most of the time anyway,saying auto-hit just makes it seem alot stronger,VH/asf/miasma or whatever will likely do it anyway.
Out of curiosity..do you often play these modified lists? Are your opponents receptive to this?
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#9
The people who have playtested have said people are quite receptive, it is all in fun anyway.

In regards to simplification, if it leaves the rules have the same effect that is fine. However it if alters the rule, that is only done if it is something flagged during playtesting or because of the 8th edition changes. This is because these rules were previously voted through by majority vote so I don't think it is right for one or two of use to overrule the majority. Plus like I said, it negates the hard work put in previously.

Ok, so at the moment it looks like the Lahmian powers have been altered to work with the 8th, plus we have a few more low level options.

Onto the armylist:

Swain,

As I think we all have agreed, the Swain may not join any Undead units. However if the Swain Entourage is purchased I think he must join that unit, and remain with that unit for the battle Fluffwise it could be any warriors loyal enough to follow the swain even when under a vampires will, would not leave their master in battle.

If on his own, as Lasombra said, it would be quite fluffy for him to be able to form a unit with the general. I like the LOS idea as well, however how would be work:

Psychology? - I'm inclined to say whilst he protects his mistress he is Unbreakable.
Crumbling? - How would CR be applied? I have no idea on this one.

Anything else about the armylist. Does it give enough options?
 

Bishop

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#10
I agree that the Swain should be forced to remain in the entourage if present.

Hmm.. on the Swain/Bodyguard idea.

Swain should be ItP in the "bodyguard" formation.

How about the Swain "counts as" Undead and suffers accordingly? ie. If the Swain has joined the Vampiress, and they lose combat, the Swain could take the "crumbling" wounds first.

Fluff-wise this could be written such that the Vampiress' hold on the Swain is being broken... if the Swain is "killed" by crumbling, it really is just that the Swain has left the combat, no longer forced to fight for the Vampiress' and likely overcome mentally/psychologically with the horrible things that they have done in the name of the Vampiress'.. effectively removing him/her as a "casuality".

On the actual "List" ... another Core that actually counts towards 25% would be nice Though, I'm not sure what.. or if it's really necessary.
 

Count Lasombra

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#11
It would be cool if the swain acted as a bunker vs. crumble,since he is alive he will continue to defend his mistress until slain.I would make him unbreakable while by her side.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#12
Hmm, so we have two trains of thought:

Have the Swain count as unbreakable and confer this onto the Lahmain, so whilst the Swain is alive she doesn't crumble. He acts as her bodyguard or something to keep her alive.

or

Have the Swain count as undead, and as the vampire weakens this in turn backlashes onto her swain and hurting him i.e he crumbles too.


After thinking about I really like the first idea (Lasombra's). I just like the idea of the Swain protecting his mistress to his last breath. It could also be balancing by the fact for this special rule to take effect they cannot join another unit.

My only concern is if it would make the Vampire over-powered having a very powerful Swain combined with her Bloodlines?
 

Count Lasombra

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#13
I don't think it would be OP since it's just the two of them against overwhelming odds,I think it's romantic.Afterall the lovesick swain has broken every bond and loyalty to stand by the side of his mistress.
 

Bishop

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#14
I'd be a bit concerned about an unbreakable character from some armies.

I'm sure that you could make a pretty durable Dwarf with a 1+/2+ re-rollable save.. toss on a ward save, and that be a nasty, nasty combo.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#16
True.

Personally I am inclined to give it a go and see how it pans out during playtesting. It could be changed if it proves to be OP.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#17
Any more thoughts on this? If not I will put it in using the Unbreakable option and see how playtesting pans out. If it really doesn't work we can switch to the crumbling rule.

However, do we think for this special rule there should be a points cost? So the Swain costs his normal amount +20pts or something?
 

Bishop

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#18
Yeah, I'd be okay with a minimal point cost on that. 25pts?

Also, make sure that "named" characters are excluded from being chosen as Swain.
 
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#19
Hello there, it has been a while.

Here are some thoughts:

I like the proposed changes related to the Swain (he is so charmed by the beauty of the vampire lady that he becomes unbreakable until she is slain). I think 20/25 extra points can be a correct pricing.
Perhaps we can also include that he becomes subject to hatred when the lady is slain? In this case, the extra points for the Swain can change a little.

Regarding the Vampire powers
Divine Beauty - 100pts
With the changes in 8th, (rerolling leadership tests due to the BSB) I think that this power is a bit expensive for what it does right now.
Would it be overpowered if we change it to :
"Any enemy units that move or appear through other means within 18" of the vampire at anytime (including overrunning), and can draw LOS to the vampire must take a Ld test on -2. If failed the unit must immediately stop, providing it is not in impassable terrain, another unit etc. If it is in such a position the unit must clear the obstruction and then stop. They may also not shoot in the shooting phase for that turn if applicable.
Whenever the 'affected' unit attempts to move again (including compulsory movement), or if the unit whishes to shoot (even while not moving) at the unit containing the vampire lady, they must test again if the above conditions are still met. If failed the unit still cannot move or shoot. If the unit passes the above Ld test at any time they can move or shoot as normal. If they unit is charged at anytime they can fight as normal. This power does affect units that are ItP"

Midnight Dancer: 50pts
the power is a bit less powerfull when we compare it with the previous edition, (due to the BSB again) but it stays usefull.

Innocence Lost: 25pts is a balanced pricing for this power (nicely addapted to 8th).

Behind the Scenes: 25pts The changes that are made to this power, avoid abuse. Nice job.

Seduction 30pts: It stays a good tacticle power.

Overflowing Coffers - 15/30pts : I know that to make this power more flexible proposal from somewhere ;)

Vanity of the Dead - 25pts
I never used this power (I try to keep my Lady as healty as possible).
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#20
Hey Darkblossom. I like the Hatred suggestion for the Swain. I think if that is added, the cost of the Swain should be base cost + 30. Everyone else ok with that?

Divine Beauty - Yes I suppose it can be toned down by the BSB, for high leadership armies it would not be worth its points. SO you're suggesting the power affects shooting as well as movement?

Why not make it more simpler actually. Anyone failing the test simply reacts as if they failed a Stupidity test at that point, with the exception that anyone who is moving stops instantly. So this would stop shooting , wizards casting etc. I think it would be worth playtesting.

Good to see you like the rest of our changes. :thumbsup:
 

Count Lasombra

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#21
I agree w/ DON.Having the unit act as if stupid is perfect fluff too xD..
personally I think it'd be alot easier to deal with if you had it affect all enemy units within 18" who are able to draw LOS to her,at the beginning of their turn.
All who fail shamble towards her like a moth to the flame.
You could probably reduce the ruletext to just a few sentences.Food for thought.
 
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#22
As failing their stupidity test? Nice, clean solution ! xD
I will give these changes a try in a play test next Friday.

Just a question: What about the Lahmian troups?

Perhaps the 'not raising over starting unit strenght' can be removed for skeletons in heavy armor?
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#23
Ok, to simplify it then:

Any enemy units (including those that are immune to Psychology) that are within 18" at the start every turn must take a Leadership test at -2. If failed they act as if they had failed a stupidity test. Enemy wizards that fail this test in their turn, they may not add their magic level the following to dispelling attempts in the next friendly turn.

I think that balances it out. The changing of the testing to the start of the player turn reduces the effectiveness slightly, as previously it was soon as as the enemy unit moved into LOS, so by adding the part about dispelling I think it balances it.

Thoughts?
 

Bishop

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#24
Upon re-reading through some of this again. I think that BTS might still be too powerful. You are causing wounds on enemy character models before the game even starts and negating most of the saves as well.

I suggest the following...

BTS - 25 pts
Roll D6 for each enemy character at the start of the battle, one roll at a time, in whatever order the player chooses. On a roll of 5+ the enemy model looses one wound that does not allow armour or regeneration saves. Each Vampire with the BTS power can only inflict a single wound. Additionally, no character can ever be wounded more than once by this power under any circumstance. In the event that all enemy characters have suffered a wound by this power, any further instances of this power are wasted.

Just a thought - I'd have no problem with allowing multiple wounds if the hits were resolved at the Vampires strength and allowed all the usual saves
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#25
Hmm, with the fact it is now limited to one wound then, I think we should change the roll to wound to 4+, other than that I agree.

What about the revised Seduction?
 
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