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BA - 8th Edition Review: Strigoi

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Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#1
Ok, lets get cracking on this one. IIRC there was a lot of feedback that these guys need changing so could be a bit of work on this one!

Strigoi Stat Changes

+1A
+1 Wound
5+ ward save
Hatred (against all foes)
May not take any mundane / magical equipment
May not take mounts of any kind
May take an extra 50% points on powers - 75pts vamp, 150pts Lord
Do not have the option to take BSB


[hr]

Bloodline Powers

Ancient Beast of Strigoi: 100 150pts - One in armies upto 2000pts, for each full 2000pts over this value you may take another instance of this power (so 2 instances in 4000pts, 3 in 6000pts etc)
The eldest of the Strigoi possess not only brutal strength but also the pride and spirit of the ancient lords of their bloodline.
The vampire gains regeneration, +1 Strength and +1 attack. In addition, all friendly Ghouls and Varghulfs within 6" of the vampire suffer one less wound exactly as if the armies BSB were present. If the BSB is present the effects are cumulative.

The vampire gains +1A, +1S, +1T, 4+ ward and the Terror special rule. They also gain the Red Fury power as per the VC rulebook. In addition it also counts as the armies BSB and confers the relevant bonuses. Finally any unit joined by this vampire also gains the Hate special rule.


Varghkin: 50 75pts - One in armies upto 2000pts, for each full 2000pts over this value you may take another instance of this power (so 2 instances in 4000pts, 3 in 6000pts etc)
The vampire have truly embraced its beastail nature.
The vampire gains +1 Strength, Toughness and movement value, in addition the vampire will have -1 to his WS. The vampire may not pick any additional vampire powers, magic items other upgrades(mounts, etc). Vampire counts are level 2 wizards, Vampires have no magic level at all.

The vampire looses all magic abilities and levels. In return he gains +1A, +2S, +1W and the Fly, Bestial Fury (as per the VC Rulebook), Terror, and Regeneration special rules, however the regeneration works on a 3+ instead of the normal 4+. He is also now classed as a monster and thus gains the Thunder Stomp rule and Large Target.


Child of Morrslieb - 50pts
Through the years of living in the presence of corrupting warpstone, tiny fragments of the essence of the moon Morrslieb have matastisized itself within the body of this vampire. As it spreads through the body and mind the Strigoi vampire develop a powerful resonating field of anti-magic. Its claws gleam with a sickly green aura capable of rending creatures not of this world.
Vampire gains MR(3) and magical attacks. Once per game he can focus his aura - The user must declare this at the start of the enemies magic phase, for the remainder of that phase any doubles will result in a miscast, although only a double 6 will cause Irresistible Force.


Massive Monstrosity : 45pts
As time pass the Strigoi vampire grow tougher and tougher and merely shrug off wounds which would cripple or even kill lesser beings.
+1 Toughness

Predator's instincts 35 pts:
The Strigoi's bestial nature allows it to swiftly and fatally identify the weak points of its chosen prey
Confers Killing Blow, in addition the vampire causes D3 wounds against any models with the Monster and/or Large Target special rules.


Ghoul Master 35pts:
The innate understanding the vampire has with its dark followers allows him to instinctively command them, ensuring they are ready to strike with deadly precision.
All friendly units with the Free Will rule that are within 12" of the vampire with this power, gain the Vanguard special rule.


Blood Rage : 30pts
Once the vampire has tasted blood the raging beast within is set free.
After first wound dealt in close combat the vampire is subject to frenzy and can never lose it.

The vampire, and all friendly units within 6'' gain the Frenzy special rule. This Frenzy can be lost as normal (if the vampire loses it, all units affected by this power lose the Frenzy rule as well). However, if the vampire subsequently deals an unsaved wound, it and all units within 6'' will regain Frenzy.


Bat form : 30pts
Its wicked diet have created a bond with the flying creatures of the night.
Fly. One A vampire in the army with this power may join a unit of Fell Bats or Vengeance Riders and counts as being the same troop type for the purposes of LOS! However a unit of Fell Bats or Vengeance Riders may only ever have one vampire join it at any one time in this manner.

Fear of the Hunter - 25pts
Just the smell of one these bestial vampire is enough to send horses or steeds into a fearful retreat.
The vampire counts as causing terror in any cavalry, monster, chariot or swarm units. Such is the fear the affected units must take the relevant Fear and Terror tests at -1Ld, and it still applies if the unit is ItP.

Hatred of the Arkayne
Having fought the vile Skaven for many years the vampire have felt the bitter sting of their fell weaponry. Each blow, a new scar. Each bite, a foul meal. Finally, the vampires body will instinctually react towards the baleful energies unleashed upon it. A perculiar side effect of these encounters and unorthodox diet, even by Strigoi standards, a thin layer of warpstone dust will eventually settle on its claws, fangs and tough skin.
The vampire gains MR(2) and magical attacks.


Scarred Hide 20pts
The many conflicts which the Strigoi has endured have hardened its skin until it is surprisingly resistant to damage
Confers 4+armour save.


Infinite hatred; As current book. 15pts (lower cost than VC book as Strigois have Hatred as standard)
Within the bitter souls of Strigoi vampires burns a great anger towards the living and the dead which never will be extinguished.

Iron Sinews : 15pts
The strength of the Strigoi vampires is goes beyond even that of the other lords of the night.
+ 1 Strength

Swift Shadow 10pts:
Striking from darkness, a Strigoi vampire races towards its foe to rend it limb from limb with its bare claws:
The Vampire with this power has Mv 9



Strigoi Optional Army List

Free Will
The Ghouls that follow the Strigoi do so of their own free will, believing in their mighty champion. Thus as their minds are free of the vampires sway, they will react as their instincts dictate, instincts which even the Stirgoi have come to respect
Ghouls in the Strigoi army may choose flee as charge reaction, even if there is a Strigoi vampire in the unit. The is subject to all the normal rules for fleeing, and the unit must test to regroup as normal.


Characters
0-1 Character other than vampire per 2000pts
No BSB
No mundane or magical weapons options

Core:
Ghouls
~ Has theFree Will Special Rule
Zombies
Skirmisher Ghouls +1pts/model
~ Has theFree Will Special Rule
~ There cannot me more units of Skirmisher Ghouls than standard Ghoul units.
~ Can still be raised past their starting unit size through use of the 'Summon Ghouls' Bloodline Power
Bat Swarms
~ do not count towards Core requirement
Fell Bats
~ do not count towards Core requirement
Wolves
~ do not count towards Core requirement

Special
Court of the Ghoul King
~ See below for rules

Varghulfs
Skeletons
0-1 Strigany - 6pts per model
~ See end of list for details

Rare
Wraiths
Spirit Hosts
Vengeance Riders

New Units

Court of the Ghoul King - 13pts per model

Court Ghoul - M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 2 / Ld6
Court Ghast - M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 4 / A 3 / Ld7

Equipment:
Dirty Claws & Teeth
Options:
Upgrade one model to Court Ghast +20pts

Special Rules:
Free Will
Poisoned Attacks
Frenzy
Regeneration (5+)
Hatred of the Underdog
As those closest to their vampire masters, these Ghouls feel their rage against those who think themselves better or more powerful. This anger manifests in battle as a unwavering fury in the face of defeat
Confers the Hatred special rule. In addition for every round of combat after the first that they are either outnumbered or loose, they may then again re-roll all their attacks in the next round of combat.
~ Cannot still be raised past their starting unit size through use of the 'Summon Ghouls' Bloodline Power


Strigany

Strigany - M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 3 / A 1 / Ld7
Domnu - M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 3 / A 2 / Ld7
Equipment:
2x Handweapons

Options:
Upgrade to Light Armour +1pt per model
Upgrade to Bow (in addition to current weapons) +2pt per model
Upgrade one model to Domnu +10pts
Upgrade one model to Std + 10pts
Upgrade one model to musc +5pts

Special Rules:

Followers of the Dammed
The Strigany have never forgotten their Lords in Death and follow them fanatically, however to this is seen as a betrayal to their fellow men who hunt them down mercilessly
The Strigany have the Stubborn special rule. In addition any Empire, Bretonnian or Kislev armies Hate any Strigany units.


Vengeance Riders - 35pts per model

Ghouls: M 4/ WS 3/ BS 0/ S 3/ T 4/ W 2/ I 3/ A 2/ LD 5
Ghast: M 4/ WS 3/ BS 0/ S 3/ T 4/ W 2/ I 3/ A 3/ LD 6
Felbat M 1/ WS 3/ BS 0/ S 3/ T -/ W -/ I 3/ A 2/ LD 3

Equipment: Filthy claws, teeth, and a hideous amount of racket.

Options:
One ghoul may be upgraded to a ghast for +15 points. Unit Size 3 - 10

Special Rules:
Flying Cavalry
Free Will
Poisoned attacks (ghouls & ghast only)
Screech
Fear



[hr]

Feedback

  • They hit hard, but it is not balanced enough by the ward save. They still are very unprotected, and might suffer in higher pointed games.
  • Possibly allow an extra allowance for Bloodline Powers due to lack of items?
  • Their lack of items means they can suffer again in higher pointed games, being over powered by magic orientated foes.
  • Court should be moved to special.
  • A corpsecart variant should be added in – mobile buffet?
  • Ghoulkin should be added in, though costed higher as more units will benefit.
  • Would like to see more powers added in? Possibly to make up for lack of magic items.
    Army lists could look the same too much?
  • Blood Rage is pointless, as it is only +1A with downsides. Even if Quicksliver is taken away (as per other threads suggestions), it is still too expensive.
  • Varghkin is not worth it. It reduces the already very limited magic of this army, and reduces the utility use. So far not an option people would take.
  • Batform would perhaps be ok to allow one vampire per Fellbat unit.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#2
Right then, lets leave the army list to last and concentrate on the stat changes and the powers using the feedback.

Stat Changes
With them not protected enough I would suggest an extra wound for the Vampires. Lords with 4 and Heroes with 3 should help out.

With the Loss of magic items I agree this army suffers, especially with no access to extra magic defence or PD generation.

I suggest an extra 50% point allowance for both Hero and Lords, so 150pts for Lord, 75pts for Hero.

Bloodline Powers

Ancient Beast of Strigoi - Is underpowered. Regen no longer works with the ward save, and the other buffs come no where near to the 100pts mark. As we have the extra allowance I suggest a full 150pt upgrade

The vampire gains +2S, +2A, armour penetration with each unsaved wound causing D3 wounds.He also causes terror and also has the Thunderstomp rule.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#3
Varghkin - I like the idea of creating an uber monster, so I would suggest:

75pts
The vampire looses the ability to cast magic and cannot roll for spells, however it can dispel as normal. In return it gains the following:

Regeneration that works on 3+
+1 Toughness
+1 Wound
Fly Special Rule
Terror
Bestial Fury rule as per VC Armybook
Classed as a monster
Large Target
 
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#4
Ancient beast of Strigoi: I like all the ideas for boosting it to a 150 pt power, but I think that maybe replacing the D3 wounds bit with something along the lines of "for each unsaved wound the vampire inflicts in Close Combat, he may attempt another attack. These additional attacks cannot spawn further attacks." D3 will mostly help against characters, and IMO I see the Strigoi doing less slaughtering characters and more mowing through vast numbers of rank and file, ala Sauron at the beginning of LotR. That said, either seems reasonable, really.

Stat changes: aye and aye

For Varghkin, I think it's worth suggesting that any character with that power can't be the army's general...it gives the feel of a completely berserk raging monster, rather than any sort of tactician. Though that may be indicated by classing it as a monster, it's probably still worth stating explicitly.

As for extra powers, I think it might be worth looking at a few of the less powerful magic items/trinkets and making powers that resemble/duplicate their effects. Example: Unholy toughness (imitating Cadaverous cuirass) 15pts
The fury of a vampire with this power is sufficient to allow it to ignore mortal wounds, and continue fighting even against chemical attacks. Thus, the vampire is immune to poison and killing blow.
 
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#5
Alright, well, since it's been 3 days I won't feel bad about double posting:

More bloodline powers based on my "modify-existing-magic-items-to-make-them-powers" hypothesis:
Scarred Hide: The many conflicts which the Strigoi has endured have hardened its skin until it is surprisingly resistant to damage 20pts
Confers 4+armour save (based off 5+ shield, cost and armour bonus both increased)

Predator's instincts 25 pts: The Strigoi's bestial nature allows it to swiftly and fatally identify the weak points of its chosen prey Confers Killing Blow.

Swift Shadow 10pts: Striking from darkness, a Strigoi vampire races towards its foe to rend it limb from limb with its bare claws: Vampire has Mv 9

That's all my ideas for now. Feel free to wittle away all, some, or none of them as you please. Let's get the Strigoi started :konrad:
 

Bishop

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#6
Given the fact that they do not have access to magic items at all, the increased point allowance is a good idea. Also, I agree that creating some additional powers seems fair as well.

However, I'd be careful not to make too many of them, especially that duplicate existing item... because then you might as well just allow magic items and use the normal rules :D

This list might need quite a bit more work.


On the Ancient Beast (highest power):

- I don't like Thunderstomp on a normal sized model... Stomp, sure!
- What about a superior form of Regen (can not be negated)?
- Maybe allow him to function exactly like a BSB (given that they can not actually take one)... the present of such an ancient powerful Strigoi seems an appropriate alternative
 
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#7
Hm. Good points all.

I agree that Thunderstomp maybe is against the spirit of that particular rule
I wouldn't really have a problem with the improved Regen, though again that works slightly against the spirit of the Regen rule as given by the BRB/errata/etc. and I REALLY like the idea of the Ancient Beast = BSB, it seems perfectly logical both fluff-wise and mechanics-wise
 

Sweeney Todd

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#8
I think it's fine to have a Varghkin Vampire leading the army. A big monstrosity leading an army of smaller mutants through example fits Strigoi imagery just fine IMO. Varghulfs aren't Large Targets though, Varghkin shouldn't have that drawback either.

As for the Ancient Beast power, if we're going to make it give a Regeneration save that can't be negated, then we may as well just have it increase the pre-existing 5+ Ward for all Strigoi to 4+. Simpler and identical function-wise. As for the BSB thing, I think it's a good idea but we need to add a rule stating that Ancient Beast allows your Lord to be both BSB and general(normally you can't have a BSB as general AFAIK). So in summary, Ancient Beast will become +2S, +2A, 4+ Ward, Red Fury(Montesque's proposal), causes Terror, and counts as BSB. Does that look alright?

@Montesque: I second Bishop's objection to making too many powers that duplicate existing items. We've got 4 now if I'm not wrong, that's enough IMO. I think Swift Shadow should be renamed to Bestial Haste and Unholy Toughness to Unholy Resilience

PS: We have a rules concern with Undead characters being able to join a non-Undead Strigany unit. Any ideas on how to resolve such a situation?
 
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#9
Honestly, that was all the item/powers I was really interested in adding, so if y'all think that's a good number, great :)
The reason I wasn't overly worried about the number was because a) they're cheap and b) even if we duplicate EVERY item with a power, the Strigoi would still be at a disadvantage in that respect because they only have the 150 pts to work with, rather than the 200 any other Vamp lord would have (or 75/100 for a hero). As I said though, I hadn't been planning on proposing any others of those.

Seems to me that it would make the most sense to have only Strigoi be able to join Strigany units, i.e. only the vampires, since the Strigany are reverential towards them, not Wight Kings, Necromancers, etc.

I like the Summation of the Ancient Beast power. That thing would be truly scary. Perhaps make it lose a magic level, however?
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#10
Ok, before I edit the first post, here are the proposed changes / additions:

May take 50% points on powers - 75pts vamp, 150pts Lord
Vampires have +1 wound.

Powers

Ancient Beast of Strigoi - 150pts
Fluff
The vampire gains +2S, +2A, 4+ Ward, and the Red Fury(as the VC Rulebook), Stomp and Terror special rules. The vampire also counts as a BSB. However the vampire may still be the armies general as normal.

Varghkin - 75pts
Fluff
The vampire gains +1T, +1W, and the Fly, Terror Regeneration and Bestial Fury (as per the VC book) special rules. The vampire is also classed as a monster and looses all magic level and spells including IoN. Finally it also gains the regeneration rule, however it works on a 3+ instead of the normal 4+.

NB: Should he have +1S?

Scarred Hide: 20pts
The many conflicts which the Strigoi has endured have hardened its skin until it is surprisingly resistant to damage
Confers 4+armour save (based off 5+ shield, cost and armour bonus both increased)

Predator's instincts 25 pts:
The Strigoi's bestial nature allows it to swiftly and fatally identify the weak points of its chosen prey
Confers Killing Blow.

Swift Shadow 10pts:
Striking from darkness, a Strigoi vampire races towards its foe to rend it limb from limb with its bare claws:
Vampire has Mv 9



I like what we have - the only other power that was in question was Blood Rage. I imagine this vampire gets more and more violent as he kills more so I would suggest something like.

When the vampire inflicts his first unsaved wound he is then on subject to Frenzy which he can never loose. In addition for every additional unsaved wound he inflicts he gains an additional attack. The maximum number of attacks the vampire can gain is 10.

Recost to 50pts?
 

Onikaigo

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#11
Blood Rage-

I like it, but it should be re-set every combat, in my mind. Unless he overruns into another combat, though that might make it a little wordy. So if our Vampire goes nuts and lays waste to X-teen bazzilion goblins that foolishly stand in his way, and he spends a turn eating their corpses and then turns to start slapping some trolls, it's been too long and his frenzy has 'Subsided' temporarily.

Otherwise, the list looks fine to me.
 

Sweeney Todd

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#12
IMO, one alternative worth considering for the Blood Rage revamp is simply to take a leaf from Minotaurs' Bloodgreed, except without the 1d6 pursue/overrun limitation.

Besides the resetting as mentioned by Oni, one thing that should be mentioned is that Blood Rage does not allow you to take the additional attacks immediately. Otherwise, people could very well interpret it as a renamed Red Fury.

As for the Varghkin power, I'm a bit sceptical at the moment. A Varghkin Vampire is more mobile, has higher WS and I than an actual Varghulf. But the actual Varghulf has 2 more attacks and is more durable. I don't really think the better statline compensates for the missing attacks and durability.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#13
Ah actually the special regen is missing, I will go edit that in. Don't forget Sweeney that Strigoi have a base +1 attack as standard, so it is only one less attack.
 

Grish

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#14
Ancient Beast is pretty terrifying.
Ancient Beast of Strigoi - 150pts
Fluff
The vampire gains +2S, +2A, 4+ Ward, and the Red Fury(as the VC Rulebook), Stomp and Terror special rules. The vampire also counts as a BSB. However the vampire may still be the armies general as normal.

That would make it S7, A7, Red Fury, 4+WS, and Stomp. With Hatred. I think this kicks the s*** out of any Vampire lord geared for combat, and comes in at what, 355 pts?

Compare with a regular Vampire Lord made for close combat:
Lord, Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Crown of the Damned, Sword of Strife
S5, A7, Red Fury, 4+WS, Infinite Hatred. 375pts. Those extra 2 S points are going to make a huge difference.

I think it might be a touch OTT; really powerful and really cheap. Just amazing synergy.

For Ancient Beast what about:
Ancient Beast of Strigoi - 150pts
Fluff
Character is mounted on a 40x40 base.
The vampire gains +1S, +1A, +1T, 3+ Regen, and the Red Fury(as the VC Rulebook), Thunder Stomp, Terror and Fly special rules.

Whether you want it to count as a BSB or not is up to you.

Having a character like this makes it way more vulnerable to cannon fire (especially Runed Cannons), but I think helps capture the essence of a powerful beast. It's also S6 A6 but with Thunderstomp and no LOS! might balance it. Also, it can only thunderstomp certain units.

If you want to keep it on a regular base, I'd tone it down by reducing S or A or both.
 

Sweeney Todd

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#15
Grish said:
Ancient Beast is pretty terrifying.
Ancient Beast of Strigoi - 150pts
Fluff
The vampire gains +2S, +2A, 4+ Ward, and the Red Fury(as the VC Rulebook), Stomp and Terror special rules. The vampire also counts as a BSB. However the vampire may still be the armies general as normal.

That would make it S7, A7, Red Fury, 4+WS, and Stomp. With Hatred. I think this kicks the s*** out of any Vampire lord geared for combat, and comes in at what, 355 pts?

Compare with a regular Vampire Lord made for close combat:
Lord, Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Crown of the Damned, Sword of Strife
S5, A7, Red Fury, 4+WS, Infinite Hatred. 375pts. Those extra 2 S points are going to make a huge difference.

I think it might be a touch OTT; really powerful and really cheap. Just amazing synergy.

For Ancient Beast what about:
Ancient Beast of Strigoi - 150pts
Fluff
Character is mounted on a 40x40 base.
The vampire gains +1S, +1A, +1T, 3+ Regen, and the Red Fury(as the VC Rulebook), Thunder Stomp, Terror and Fly special rules.

Whether you want it to count as a BSB or not is up to you.

Having a character like this makes it way more vulnerable to cannon fire (especially Runed Cannons), but I think helps capture the essence of a powerful beast. It's also S6 A6 but with Thunderstomp and no LOS! might balance it. Also, it can only thunderstomp certain units.

If you want to keep it on a regular base, I'd tone it down by reducing S or A or both.
Making the character mounted on a monster base is exactly what we're trying to avoid with Ancient Beast. We've already got a power that does that; see Varghkin. A second generation vampire should not need an oversized frame to squeeze all that power into. Also, a direct comparison with the generic VC Vampire Lord may not be fair as Strigoi have a lot less options when it comes to magic, as a result they have to rely more on kicking the crap outta you. Plus said Vampire Lord has a lot more options than the Strigoi Lord.

That said, in hindsight it may be a bit OTT though. I also didn't know Stomp was going to be in there. I suggest reducing the A bonus to +1 and taking away Stomp. So the amended Ancient Beast would be +2S, +1A, 4+ Ward, Red Fury,Terror, BSB and may be general.

@DoN: Yes, I forgot to factor in the base +1A all Strigoi get. Since that's the case Varghkin looks viable.

PS: I assume a Strigoi Lord still has the option to upgrade to Lvl 3 Wizard?
 

Grish

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#16
Stomp is not a big deal. This vampire would have a 89% of hitting anything WS6 or lower anyways, and it wouldn't benefit from Red Fury.

A Strigoi may have less options but I think this is hte most effective one, and the one that would be picked generally.

Most Vampire Lords have a lot of options but what it boils down to is all of them take mainly Forbidden Lore/DarkAcolyte/MotBA/Red Fury/ Infinite Hatred. Every vampire lord I've seen has combinations of these powers. If you want a different 'option' you would take a different bloodline, so I don't really see less options as a downside. What I do see as a downside is the only viable Vampire Lord would be to take that power. It should be strong, but not the obvious choice like the rest of our vampire powers currently are.

Varghkin I saw was classified as a Monster but nothing beyond that. Didn't mention a base size or anything (although you may draw the fair conclusion that monsters are on at least a 40x40 base).

Even losing 1 attack I still think it's Over the top, as Strigoi have an additional wound. Makes a terrifying Rank and File killer.
 

Sweeney Todd

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#17
Grish said:
Most Vampire Lords have a lot of options but what it boils down to is all of them take mainly Forbidden Lore/DarkAcolyte/MotBA/Red Fury/ Infinite Hatred. Every vampire lord I've seen has combinations of these powers. If you want a different 'option' you would take a different bloodline, so I don't really see less options as a downside. What I do see as a downside is the only viable Vampire Lord would be to take that power. It should be strong, but not the obvious choice like the rest of our vampire powers currently are.
I'll hold off discussing Ancient Beast being OP or not for a bit to answer this one. Saying 'If I want different options I'll take a different bloodline' is like saying 'If I want more CC power I'll go play Warriors of Chaos', IMO.

You can't play down lacking options being a limitation. You could say 'My Necrarch army needs more hitting power; I'll sub in a Strigoi beatstick.' but it's not going to happen because the bloodline armies(with the exception of Lahmians) are completely different standalone entities that are as seperate from each other as, say, High Elf is from Dark Elf.
 

Grish

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#18
Well no, its not the same as saying take WoC because you need to buy completely different models, an investment of hundreds of dollars. It's not easily done for most people. Vampire armies use the same models, so even though the blood lines are stand alone armies, they're very interchangeable. There are two unique units in a Strigoi list; Court of the Ghoul king and Strigany. One in a Necrarch list. Those are the only models you'd have to sub out. Everything else works with most VC armies. If you want to go to a magic heavy list, take out the Strigoi looking vampires, put in a couple Necrarch vampires, maybe a unit of experiments, take out some ghouls, add some skeletons/zombies, and bam, you got yourself an army. I would imagine most people on the forum could do this. I do not think most could just go play WoC.
 

Sweeney Todd

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#19
Grish said:
Well no, its not the same as saying take WoC because you need to buy completely different models, an investment of hundreds of dollars. It's not easily done for most people. Vampire armies use the same models, so even though the blood lines are stand alone armies, they're very interchangeable. There are two unique units in a Strigoi list; Court of the Ghoul king and Strigany. One in a Necrarch list. Those are the only models you'd have to sub out. Everything else works with most VC armies. If you want to go to a magic heavy list, take out the Strigoi looking vampires, put in a couple Necrarch vampires, maybe a unit of experiments, take out some ghouls, add some skeletons/zombies, and bam, you got yourself an army. I would imagine most people on the forum could do this. I do not think most could just go play WoC.
My point still remains. Model-wise, you may be able to switch between the bloodline armies pretty easily but rules-wise, they are separate entities and should/will be playtested as such. Dismissing the flaws of the Strigoi army by saying "I'll go play Necrarch if I want more magic" is not a valid response when it comes to discussing rules balance.
 

Grish

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#20
Infinite hatred 15pts
Iron Sinews : 15pts + 1 Strength
Quicksilver - 20pts +1A

Base Lord:
WS7, S5, T5, A5, W4, WS5+, Hatred, lvl 2 caster (205 pts)
Base Hero:
WS6, S5, T4, A4, W3, WS5+, Hatred, lvl1 caster (100 pts)

Your point is that having a Lord from this army that is superior to another armies lord in close combat cannot be compared as they are different armies. Fine.

Let's frame this better. Let's compare this army to what kind of an army you would field if you wanted a fighty VC army.

You lose the options of:
Helm of command - Definitely a hit in power
Staff of damnation - Somewhat of a hit.
Hoff banner - Definitely a hit.
Corpse Cart (?) - not common, wouldn't really count as a loss.
Power Scroll - currently, a hit. Cheesy stuff this.
Blood Knights - not a hit.

What you gain:
Heroes. Well, not much choice here. With 8th ed. and everyone striking, you need to protect your characters as much as possible. There are 3 options for Strigoi heroes: Varghkin (best), Scarred hide (not much), and nothing.

I think there's only one or two builds that would ever be used.
Varghkin (175pts):
WS6, S5, T5, A4, W4, Fly, Terror, Bestial Fury, Regen 3+, Ward save 5+, Hatred, LD7, I5.
So kinda like a Varghulf. Gains +1 WS, Fly, Better Regen, backup ward save. Loses 1 attack. Had better protection from all the nasty I spells and goes first in combats. Can challenge/be challenged (possible weakness). I think the Fly allow it to get into combat more effectively, and has a better chance of making a March roll; harder to stop. Definitely more value than a Varghulf.

Lets see what other Hero builds we can make:
Base hero build:WS6, S5, T4, A4, W3, WS5+, Hatred, lvl1 caster (100 pts)
With T4, and a WS of 5+, it doesn't leave much room for protection. As these vampires are not 'support' characters, the only other protection that is offered is Scarred hide. The three wounds is pretty good though, especially combined with healing.

So:
Scarred Hide, Quick Silver, Iron Sinews, Raise power/move power
Gives you WS6, S6, T4, A5, Hatred, AS4+, WS5+. About the next best hero you can take. Lightly protected, can dish out a good amount of damage. Kind of expensive for what you get. Might see this guy around. Would potentially drop Scarred hide for Infinite Hatred and just hope W3 and WS is enough to protect him.

Any other useful characters that you would put up? I don't see anything.

Varghulfs/Grave guard in different slots.
Limited Ranged shooting. Don't see much value here.
Skirmishing ghouls: Could be ok, skirmishers took a hit though. Don't think its too valuable compared to regular RnF infantry. In 7th it was a much bigger boon.

So most armies IMO would be the same thing. Lord with Ancient Beast, 2 vamp heroes with Varghkin, and a bunch of Varghulfs. Grave guard with great weapons and Banner of the Barrows. Ghouls for core. Tons of mobility in this army, and hitting power.

When there's only 1 effective lord build and 1 effective hero build, things need to be changed. If there's something else effective here let me know.
 
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#21
Well, there's almost always going to be one (or at least very few) "best" hero/lord builds for any army book, for any army.

That is, if you look at it from a purely statistical standpoint. However, from a tactical standpoint, I can see a lot of possible builds utilizing the Bat form power to create a highly mobile hero with decent protection and good hitting power. Sure, his stats might not be maximized, but given the right circumstances he could be a heck of a factor nonetheless. Same with a lot of the other cheaper powers, many of which could be combined to create an army that, while not quite as hard hitting as the BloodKnights, is even more maneuverable, which is pretty much exactly what I imagine a Strigoi army to be like.

Now, I can see your problem with there being only 1 "effective" Lord build, i.e. the Ancient Beast, but at the same time I don't see it as a problem for two reasons. Firstly, the options to take any number of other powers IS still available, and open for experimentation, which could create a Lord equally as fun and effective as the Ancient Beast with the right support structure, and secondly, I really see nothing wrong with an Ancient Beast of Strigoi being the default army general. In terms of leadership it would seem IMO that the Strigoi would tend to behave like orcs, i.e. "da biggest and da strongest lead", thus the Ancient Beast. And if you don't like that idea, then you can either a) use the 150 pts and large list of powers to do your own thing, or play a different bloodline.

Mostly, I'm not sure exactly what you're proposing. If it's weakening the Ancient Beast power, I'd have to disagree, because as a 150 point power it's supposed to be overwhelming, and I think we've hit on something that fits that bill.

Overall though, I'm afraid we may have reached the point of saturation regarding the characters. If I may humbly submit we await the results of playtesting to tweak the characters further and move on to the army list?
 

Grish

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#22
Varghkin has the Fly power. What combination with Bat Form do you see? I looked over the builds and tried a few and didn't like what the end result was. What kind of builds are you getting?

Well I'm not sure if I can be any clearer, but if this is what you want to play, go for it.
 
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#23
The advantage given by Bat Form is that he can join up with Fel Bats, thus allowing him to bunker with them, which he would not normally be able to do. Thus, a Bat form vampire is more protected than a Varghkin one, and may be played differently, particularly if, say, someone with MR. of Beasts were around keeping the unit up to strength/improving.

Allow me to clarify my request for clarification: Your problems with our work thus far are obvious, but I was wondering if you perhaps had any specific changes you would like to see made, either by addition or subtraction, rather than simply saying that you don't like how this looks.

What would be your ideas for introducing more variety into the character choices?
 

Grish

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#24
Sure; but I'd like to talk with someone about Strigoi. What I know about them is from 6th ed Vampire book and 7th ed Vampire book.

Bestial cannibals is what it seems to be.

But it hinted at so much more; beloved leaders, soft hearts, the most 'good' out of all the vampire blood lines in my opinion.
 
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#25
Ah. I think perhaps then that this is the root of the problem. I, and most of the others, if I may speak for them, have been looking at it, as you say, along the lines of bestial cannibals. That simply seems to be what the majority read it as.

If you have some ideas for how to bring out these other aspects, I would be interested to hear them, but perhaps we should move this discussion to private messages, as we're not really contributing anything to this thread, currently.
 
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