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Banshees

Skaramak von Carstein

Vampire Count
True Blood
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Aug 13, 2007
Messages
1,636
#2
It would, I think count as infantry. Not sure of the exact rules for his deployment in the enemy, but I had thought that it had to be in a unit, and replaced an ordinary rnf trooper. I do not think that he could replace the banshee, which is ethereal and treated in many ways as a lone character.
 
Joined
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Messages
876
#3
is says in Shadowblade's rules

...roughly man-sized infantry unit, or warmachine crew.

A Banshee may be a 'roughly man-sized infantry unit'

It is roughly man-sized, or woman-sized.
It is a unit not a character.
It may be infantry.

If it is not infanty, it must be a character or a monster.
 

Master Vampire

Master Necromancer
True Blood
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2,342
#4
It is a unit not a character.
I think the rules clearly state that 'A banshee is treated like a single character'.

page 28: Single model: A Banshee is treated as a character on foot for movement and when targeted by missiles. A Banshee has a US of 1 and cannot join other units or characters...

So unless the magic item is a missile, it can be directed at the Banshee...
 
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#5
I found that rule, but it says 'treated as' for two purposes only, movement and when being targeted by missiles. Being replaced by Shadowblade is neither of those, or so my opponent argued. It was claimed that this is a 'standard' GW interpretation, but I was not familiar with Shadowblade.

I was a bit annoyed to have my Banshee destroyed and then have Shadowblade charge into and kill my Necromancer lord.
 
Joined
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#6
If I were you, I would have ended the game right there and then and never played that opponent again.

That is crap. A Banshee is neither an infantry unit nor a warmachine crew. What happened to you was a blantant abuse of the rules. Since when does a 'single model', which it states in the Banshee rules as MV pointed out, that a Banshee is a single model with US1, count as a unit?

Here is the Master of Assassins rule that Shadowblade has:-

MASTER OF ASSASSINS: Shadowblade is treated as an Assassin in all respects, with the exception of his Hidden rules. Shadowblade may be deploy in one of four ways: as normal; as a Scout (with a unit of Shades if you desire); using the Hidden rules on page 11 of the Dark Elf book; inside the enemy army. If he chooses to deploy in the enemy army, the following rules are used. At the start of any of your turns, you may declare that Shadowblade is revealing himself. Place a marker anywhere on the table. This is where he was attempting to hide. Roll a scatter dice and an artillery dice. If you roll a misfire, Shadowblade was discovered by the enemy and counts as slain. If you roll a number, move the marker this many inches in the direction indicated by the scatter dice (or he remains where the marker is, if you have rolled a 'Hit'). Place Shadowblade on the marker's final position. Shadowblade may move and fight as normal on the turn he arrives (including declaring charges). If the scatter would take Shadowblade into an enemy unit, place him at the front of the unit and in combat (or as close to the front of the unit as possible). He counts as charging that turn. If he would scatter into a friendly unit move him to the closest edge, outside the unit.

And here is the updated rules for Hidden that they brought out:-

Page 11 (Assassins - Hidden) - replace first paragraph with:

Hidden: If you wish, any Assassin in your army may start the game hidden in one of the following units: Witch Elves, Warriors, Corsairs, Executioners or Black Guard. Alternatively, he may deploy as a Scout.

With a Banshee, there is no where for Shadowblade to hide in and then reveal himself from. Go back to your opponent (if you ever play him again, personally, I wouldn't), grab your BRB and beat him to a bloody pulp with it. And make sure people know that he is a cheat.
 
Joined
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Messages
876
#7
Those were not the rules he was using, but these one that he told me about and I subsequently checked from GW's UK site.

Shadowblade is treated as an Assassin in all respects, with the exception of his Hidden rules. Shadowblade may be deployed in one of four ways: as normal; as a scout (with a unit of Shades if you desire); using the Hidden rules on page 11 of Warhammer Armies: Dark Elves; inside the enemy army. If he chooses to deploy in the enemy army, the following rules are used. After your opponent has deployed, secretly write down within which enemy unit Shadowblade has attempted to conceal himself. This must be a roughly man-sized infantry unit, or war machine crew (and includes Goblins, Dwarfs, Halflings and such, but nothing larger than man-sized – even Shadowblade cannot make himself look like an Ogre...).

At the start of each of the opposing army's turns, roll a D6. On a roll of a 2+, he is still undiscovered. On a roll of a 1, the enemy have seen through his disguise and he is placed on the table. Alternatively, at the start of any Dark Elf turn, Shadowblade can be revealed voluntarily. Regardless of how he is revealed, use the following method to place him on the table. Reveal to your opponent within which unit Shadowblade was hiding. Shadowblade replaces one of the models in the unit (he was killed before the battle), remove one ordinary unit member (not a Command model or Character). Place Shadowblade anywhere in contact with the unit. If he is revealed voluntarily, Shadowblade counts as charging that turn; if he was discovered then the enemy count as charging. Shadowblade may drink his Potion of Strength at the start of a turn in which he was voluntarily revealed.


Where did you get those rules from?

The wording on pp 6-7 of BRB seems to show that a Banshee is indeed a unit of infantry. A lone model cartainly is a unit.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
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#8
Yes, I think it is certainly possible, and a very nasty way of using Shadowblade. Of course, Shadowblade is opponents' consent only, so you should certainly be aware that he could turn up anywhere and go on to kill your general with a fair amount of ease...
 
Joined
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Messages
876
#9
I thought that 'permission only' for special characters was gone with 7th Ed.

If I got cheated, I want to know. If I did not, I need to know that too so I can prepare in the future. Undead are at a seriois disadvantage when their General gets killed and since Characters need to be in units, they are vulnerable to this Character. The enemy forgot to let me roll on my turn and released him on his first turn.
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
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Aug 19, 2007
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#10
It appears mr Shadowblade have 2 different rules on how he is revealed.

US version : http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/darkelves/gaming/specialcharacters/shadowblade/shadowblade.htm
UK version : http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/special-characters/6/

Rather confusing but in the end it does not matter :
"the following Special Character has not been playtested as thoroughly as the ones presented in the army books and is not necessarily as balanced or fair. Consequently, you must agree with your opponent about whether you can use him or not before the battle begins."

But personally I refuse to play with special characters in friendly games as they almost exclusively taken beacause of their power. When you use Shadowblade against VC(and TK) this becomes painfully obvious.
 
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#11
To refuse, you have to know he's there, by which time it was too late.

Any idea which set of rules is correct or official? Is one set 6th ed and the other 7th ed?

As far as Specials Characters are concerned, I blame GW. If they are there, cannot expect my opponents not to choose to use them.

Shame VC don't have good Special Characters. Let's hope we get something that can deal with Thorek, Morghur, Shadowblade and similar.
 

Grish

Liche
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#12
Even if you use the GW site, this is allowed per the rules, but doesn't make sense. It's a case of a scouting stegadon; it didn't make sense so there was a FAQ released to cover it.

In any case, if you decide this person can use this character, then I would argue against replacing a Banshee, even though it's allowed per GW UK rules.

I'd bring up that he:

a) hides in the unit (how does he hide in a unit of 1?)
b) even Shadowblade cannot make himself look like an Ogre... (but he can make himself look like a floating, ethreal, Banshee, flying through walls, and shrieking at enemies to kill them? What happens to all these special powers when he reveals himself?)
c) Shadowblade replaces one of the models in the unit (he was killed before the battle), remove one ordinary unit member (not a Command model or Character). (Can't make himself look like the commander or musician, but can make himself look like a banshee?)
d) Place Shadowblade anywhere in contact with the unit. (There is no more unit; what do you place him in contact with?)

I would heavily argue that even though it's allowed by the rules, in this case of replacing a banshee, it does not make sense.

On another note, are these characters legal? This is the first I've seen of these special characters.
 
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#13
Shadowblade is a special character that requires your opponent's permission to use, just like is required if you want to take Neferata.

Arch, did your opponent actually ask your permission before the game started that he wanted to use Shadowblade? If not, as I said, he is nothing but a cheat. If he asked and you allowed it, then sorry but you brought it on yourself. It's not GW's fault. It's your and your opponents fault for not knowing the rules properly, or your opponent being a cheat. And I would love to have heard your opponent's explaination for how Shadowblade can hide in a single model with US1, and who is also ethereal, like a banshee... that really belongs in the serious rules abuse thread. You really got reamed there...
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
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#14
ArchMagosAlchemys said:
I thought that 'permission only' for special characters was gone with 7th Ed.
Most people get this wrong, though I don't know why, GW couldn't be any clearer about this.

You're Australian, aren't you? So go to the website: http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/darkelves/gaming/specialcharacters/shadowblade/shadowblade.htm

"The following Special Character has not been playtested as thoroughly as the ones presented in the army books and is not necessarily as balanced or fair. Consequently, you must agree with your opponent about whether you can use him or not before the battle begins."

ALL Special Characters contained within the army books are "fully legal", but not the web character...

If I got cheated, I want to know.
Simply put, by not telling you in advance and asking your permission, your opponent cheated you, yes. You might as well act like the game never happened, as any sensible player (unless they really wanted a challenge) would simply say "no" to this option. It's even worse than usual common mistakes, because this was clearly pre-meditated, he came up with this strategy in advance and then hit you with his trap. You should remind him of the "most important rule" on page 3 of the rulebook...
 
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Messages
876
#15
I'm actually a Kiwi (4 red stars on the flag not six white stars), but I'm playing the the US.

No. Shadowblade was never discussed before the battle until he appeared.

Here is the site:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/special-characters/6/

I can find nothing about opponent's permission here or the 'untested' wording quoted elsewhere.
 
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Messages
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#16
It depends on what shadowblade rules he is using. The ones of some of the GW websites state you require permission to use him, however a few years back in a Australian WD he appeared with rules that stated he can be used any old time.
 
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Messages
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#17
And how the #$%$^&(*((*&&^& am I supposed to know which one????????

What sort of GW insanity is it to have at least two completely different sets of 'official' rules for a Special Character, and a Special Character that seems over-powered at that.

But back to Banshees.

Is it generally accepted that a banshee is infantry and that Shadowblade could replace them according to the literal interpretation of the rules?
 
Joined
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Messages
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#18
Shadowblade can only join a unit of infantry. As a banshee is not a unit but a single model I see no way in hell that he could pass himself off as one. Im pretty certain in his rules(im a dark elf player aswell and have used him in huge battles ) that he can only replace a model from a infantry unit and must stay with that enemy infantry unit untill he is revealed.

Your opponent was cheating.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
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#19
I still think replacing a Banshee is fine. If you had a unit of 5 infantry models reduced to one model, then it'd sill be a unit of infantry, just like a Banshee...

And if we want to make arguments based on realism, then it'd probably be even easier for him to pose as an enemy that fights alone- less people nearby to see through his disguise...
 
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#20
At the start of the BRB, GW defines the categories of models/units. It is a complete and inclusive list. A Banshee must be one of:

Infantry
Cavalry
Warmachine
Chariot
Character
Monster

By a process of elimination, a Banshee seems to be Infantry because it is nothing else.
 

DarkHand6

Grave Guard
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
244
#21
unfortunately i think he was right - Sahdowblade could replace the banshee

on the other hand - all the characters on the website are 6th Ed. There was a generic notice saying that you had to ask opponents permission before the game to use the character.
In 7th Ed there are a lot more special characters included in the books but u would have to ask permission for anything not printed in the book. Thats always been the case...

so cheated but not cheated really - should of told you that shadowblade was there, but it was legal to replace the banshee
 
Joined
Nov 22, 2007
Messages
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#22
However it states that shadowblade replaces a 'rank and file" model in a infantry unit. A banshee is not rank and file and is not part of a infantry unit.

Also it states that shadowblade killed the infantrymen before the battle and then joined the unit, thus the banshee could never be used as a banshee if he killed it before the battle.

The guy has got to be cheating and if he isnt he deserves one hell of a slap to the head for being a beardy git.
 

Mr Saturday

Vampire Count
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Messages
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#23
Good lord, what a terrible abuse of the rules. Special characters need to be discussed before the battle. Now I realize that asking about a hidden assassin takes away some of the element of surprise, but there you go. Also, the spirit of the rules clearly refer to units, as in units with command models. They cannot be targeted by Shadowblade, so by inference, it would suggest a banshee, you is a bit more powerful than a standard bearer, is also immune. If one wants to be pedantic you could argue that shadowblade could not have killed the banshee as he doesn't carry magical weapons. Nor can he float. Or walk through walls. Or kill men with a word. I can believe he wore the dress though.

I'd give your general the cloak of mist and shadows. OR, you could find a more sporting player.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
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#24
Dark Templar said:
However it states that shadowblade replaces a 'rank and file" model in a infantry unit. A banshee is not rank and file and is not part of a infantry unit.
We've already established that a Banshee is an infantry unit (If she's not, then she can't enter buildings. And oh yes she can!!!). It seems that you've invented the part about 'rank and file' - those speech marks mean you're quoting something, yet those words never appear in Shadowblade's rules. Where did you get them from?
 
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Messages
156
#25
it just one of those times were GW got it rong
he couldnt do it, but becaus of wording he can "legaly" kill a banshee and walk trough walls (and wear a dress) bad sport but leagal,

like on the first turn of the game declearing that you infantry is charging a warplightning canon techincly it has to flee although they are the entire board away
 
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