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Bat Swarms do you use them?

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Sep 13, 2007
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660
#1
Through my time playing VC i've never really used Bat Swarms, I know that they are useful as support for you regiments and protecting flanks but what else are they good for?
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
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#2
To be honest, its the worst unit by far in the VC army list. Before they were nice and all when they didnt crumble. Now they´re a T2 swarm which crumbles.
Not something to be impressed about, at all... Avoid at all costs IMO(unless you need them for a themed list).

Cheers
 

Falahk

Grave Guard
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#3
i have not used a bat swarm since the early days of the 6th ed(when i was still learning this game.....), they was awesome back then, but with the 7th ed chages they are now useless, so i have not used them even once after starting VC in the early days of the 7th
 

Skaramak von Carstein

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#5
I would also avoid them as a likely gift of points to your opponent. They were badly nerfed under the move to 7th edition. I hope something useful is done under the new book to make them worth taking.
 
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#6
I agree, great models and under 6th very handy, now completely and utterly useless. Strange of GW to completely kill off a model which would make them money....
 

Skaramak von Carstein

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#7
As I said, hopefully this will sort itself out with the new book. I currently have a flock of bats pottering around in the belfry and not getting an outing :(
 

Lord Fear

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#8
Thr 7th edition change to swarms was ridiculous and benefited absolutely nobody- swarms already died in close combat easily enough, if any unbreakable unit should take extra damage for lost CR it should be things like tough Slayers and Flagellants (who throw themselves at the enemy without concern for their safety). One of those rules which should basically be ignored, to be honest.
 
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#9
Yes exactly and what GW forgets is that yes a swarm could hold up a chosen knight unit for turns but they always died, so you were giving away a hefty chunk of points. So you had to choose your target wisely for them.
GW listened to the few whiners out there and nerfed them, pathetic...
The VC book will be the indicator to see if my bat, rat and jungle swarms ever see the light of day again............
 

logan054

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#10
sadly its like so many of the rules changes that GW made, i think 7th ed was the worse release next to 3rd ed 40k, i guess all we can all hope for is a better release when they do 8th ed!
 

N.I.B

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#11
EvC said:
Thr 7th edition change to swarms was ridiculous and benefited absolutely nobody
FatOlaf said:
Yes exactly
logan054 said:
7th ed was the worse release next to 3rd ed 40k
In my humble opinion, you are all crazy. The changes to Swarms was one of the best things in 7th edition, which by the way is the best edition of Warhammer so far. Every edition has brought a better game (with the possible exception of 5th edition).

Swarms were waaaay too good, and made for boring games. You always killed them in 3-4 rounds of combat, so what? By then the damage was done. Designers has to be very careful with unbreakable units. There was nothing as annoying as having your big unit of Black Knights stuck on Rat Swarms, while the rest of your army got shot and magicked to pieces.

I for one cry no tears over Bat Swarms (or other swarms). Although if Ghouls really will lose skirmish, if Bat Swarms are still in the army, I suspect they will be made Undead to compensate (and because Alive! makes no sense if there are no benefits whatsoever to it). That will be a boost, but far from overpowered.
 

Skaramak von Carstein

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#12
I would have to disagree with you on that, NIB, on a number of points.

I feel the change from 2nd edition to 3rd/4th was not an improvement (IMO, which is all our comments here are), and merely shifted the imbalances that GW introduced/encouraged late in 2nd edition to a different set of imbalances. There were, however, some improvements, and this has continued in each subsequend edition.

The trend from 5th onwards has been to increase the necessity to have blocks of core units (combat resolution, reduced costs, greater limits on heroes, reduced power of spells) and to streamline things to allow faster play. They are moving gack, to an extent, to something more akin to what are considered 'serious' wargames, I suspect in an effort to attract back the older gamer who has drifted away and onwards over the years.

For me, the biggest breakthrough in 7th edition (which was predominately tweaks to 6th edition) has been the index to make it easier to use the rume book. Not rocket science, and long overdue.

I feel they have some way to go in what I think they are trying to achieve (other than sell more miniatures :lol:), but are getting there.

As for swarms, I do not think that they were excessively overpowered, if at all, as they were relatively expensive, and destroyed fairly easily, if slowly. They provided a useful tactical delay against opposing elite units, or a flank, if allowed to do so by your opponent (as FatOlaf says).

As I said, hopefully GW will correct this with the introduction of the new army book.
 

Danceman

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#13
N.I.B. said:
In my humble opinion, you are all crazy.
Indeed, 7th was a good turn of events. 3rd to 4th made me detest 40k(did that before too but that gave me another nudge).

Before bat swarms were extremely useful, now they´re not.... but it´s not like VC have a lack of choice in the swarm department.

VC are also due to a new book soon...
 

logan054

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#14
Well i try not to think of hero hammer, ok maybe i was abit harsh about 7th ed, i have to say i like magic far more now than in any other edition, i guess its some of the minor changes thats piss me, swarms is one (and i dont have them!), the problem with GW is when they try and fix something they usually go from one extreme to the other. I have to say however that i prefer frenzy now than to before, i can say i dont miss having double attacks!

I think the biggest problem GW has however is that they didnt go back to a ravening hordes list like they did with 6th ed, i think if they had done this warhammer would be a far better game, for start it would remove so many of the issues that arrise from changing rules with editions (i think frenzy and mounts is one, buts more with chaos).
 

Bug16

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#16
Skaramak von Carstein said:
I feel the change from 2nd edition to 3rd/4th was not an improvement (IMO, which is all our comments here are)
The changes from 2nd to 3rd edition WHFB were badly needed. 2nd edition still showed it's RPG/skirmish roots and I don't remember a single person complain about the change at the time.

3rd edition was horribly broken but wonderfully detailed. 4th edition was bloody awful and herohammer to the max. It was also too big a change from 3rd edition and chopped out about 60% of the rules and 90% of the troop formations. It met a similar resistance that 40kV3 was over 40kV2 did. I remember being in my old GW store and the manager had a store full of kids and some adults and he was showing 4th WHFB edition and people were actually "booing" it and walking away!

I quite enjoy 5th edition WHFB, I still play WAB regularly. 6th edition was great. So far, I don't have a problem with 7th edition.

Remember, the usual GW policy seems to be to release a decent version of the WHFB rulebook then slowely break it over the years with the release of the armybooks.
 

Skaramak von Carstein

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#17
Bug16 said:
Skaramak von Carstein said:
I feel the change from 2nd edition to 3rd/4th was not an improvement (IMO, which is all our comments here are)
The changes from 2nd to 3rd edition WHFB were badly needed. 2nd edition still showed it's RPG/skirmish roots and I don't remember a single person complain about the change at the time.
I'm not saying that change was not needed to bring us to a mass battle system, and I agree with you on the skirmish roots, as well as the improved detail. I was merely saying that we moved from one set of breakages to another. Overall, I do feel we are making progress and things are improving, but as with any ruleset there are wrinkles that need ironing (although herohammer needed a steamroller rather than a steam iron :lol:)

And at the end of the day, GW is a business that needs to evolve, or it will die.
 

Lord Fear

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#18
logan054 said:
the problem with GW is when they try and fix something they usually go from one extreme to the other.
Yep, this is 100% correct. It's all well and good for people to say the game is getting better in general with new editions, and I agree, but that doesn't mean individual changes can't be for the worse. The new rules for Unbreakable Swarms are broken (how ironic), the proof is that no decent army list will ever use them (Except for undead swarms, who have their crumbling costed into them). They may have been too strong before, in which case the solution isn't to make them useless, the solution is to weaken them in some way that still makes them useless.

Here's several ways I could think of to make weaken Swarms a little bit, if any one of them were applied:
1) Except when they charge, swarms are always automatically hit.
2) For every point that a swarm loses combat, the enemy may make one extra attack against them
3) Swarms may not march
etc etc etc.

The current solution makes them unusable, end of story. On the plus side, some people have argued that the new Swarm rules mean every point that Spirit Hosts lose combat by takes off TWO wounds- I think hardly anyone agrees however and this has been refuted a few times...
 

Skaramak von Carstein

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#19
EvC said:
On the plus side, some people have argued that the new Swarm rules mean every point that Spirit Hosts lose combat by takes off TWO wounds- I think hardly anyone agrees however and this has been refuted a few times...
The last paragraph (p53) states that swarms subject to special combat result rules (Undead and daemonic swarms are given as examples) do not have the unbreakable rule (within which the rules on 'Unbreakable swarms' is included), and therefore you do not get the double crumbling effect (GW obviously spotted this one!!).
 

Lord Fear

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#20
Yeah, but some people felt they needed to argue against that applying to Spirit Hosts, despite that disclaimer. Some peoples' minds work funny, I think.
 

logan054

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#22
EvC said:
Yeah, but some people felt they needed to argue against that applying to Spirit Hosts, despite that disclaimer. Some peoples' minds work funny, I think.
Its very simple, some people tend to believe they are the only ones who know the rules as perhaps the usual people they play dont, thus in a desperate effort to gain a few few extra VPs they will try and trick they can to get them, your example with the spirit host being a prime example.
 
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#23
N.I.B. said:
Swarms were waaaay too good, and made for boring games. You always killed them in 3-4 rounds of combat, so what? By then the damage was done. Designers has to be very careful with unbreakable units. There was nothing as annoying as having your big unit of Black Knights stuck on Rat Swarms, while the rest of your army got shot and magicked to pieces.
This was the kind of complaint that made GW do what they did, N.I.B to say swarms were waaay to good is madness, the problem lies in you letting the VC player get their swarms into your best unit, and yes it is annoying that they will hold up said unit for 3-4 turns (unlikely against BK) but in the end the swarms will die and you have gained a mitt full of VP's, remember we can only ever have one unit of swarms, so if they ruin your entire game plan by holding up your unit of BK, then you seriously need to have a good look at your list building skills!
But on another level, can you not see that with the current rules, swarms are completely and utterly useless, is that a good thing to do for say a player like me that has bought several packs for 3 of my armies (they are not exactly cheap to buy neither) and now cannot not use them at all, with current army books.
Would you take them as it stands?
IMO GW might have just said in 7th please tipex out your swarm entries as they are now no longer legal, this would have been less painful and too be honest less patronising than GW nerfing them wholesale and then not even doing a points revision. The still trying to get people to take them via crap lists in WD battle reports etc...

So that brings up a good question, would any of you take them, as the rules stand now, if say they had a 20 point deduction?
For VC, LM or skaven?


EvC said:
The current solution makes them unusable, end of story. On the plus side, some people have argued that the new Swarm rules mean every point that Spirit Hosts lose combat by takes off TWO wounds- I think hardly anyone agrees however and this has been refuted a few times...

These are the same people hoping for Ethereal T7 with their cannon ball's ready. Seriously if I ever met someone try to pull this chestnut, I would slap them very hard and tell them to go away and have a hard look at themselves! Pathetic! :mrgreen:
 

Lord Fear

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#24
Haha, so you should!

I actually thought up a nice rule that would have made Swarms still a bit viable, not quite worth their points but a decent addition to an army: enemies can never overrun after defeating a Swarm in the first round of combat. Simple and swarmy. Bat Swarms and other wkirmishing swarms were after all hit even harder by the new rules, as tactical charging means that people can wheel round and charge straight through a unit of Swarms (Not difficult if you have three Swarms with 5 wounds each and the charging unit does 5 wounds straight off, has three ranks, standard and outnumber). But if the swarms still crumbled but locked a unit in place, that would be fine. I could even envision myself using a base or two of them.
 

N.I.B

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#25
FatOlaf said:
the problem lies in you letting the VC player get their swarms into your best unit
VC? I was more worried about the Skaven Rat Swarms (and Lizardmen Jungle Swarms). As you always get out-deployed by a Skaven army, that Rat Swarm will be opposing your Black Knights. As they could march even when blocked, your knights never had a chance to avoid them. Against hard Skaven builds, the key to success is to present multiple threats/targets at once, so he can't take them all out at once. The Rat Swarms not only held up your knights for 3-4 rounds, usually they march blocked parts of your army too, letting that warp stone shooting and magic pick you apart at will. Very frustrating. The nerfing of Swarms was a good way of toning down the rudest of the SAD builds. All in all, even if not game-winning, Swarms made for boring, stalling games.

FatOlaf said:
But on another level, can you not see that with the current rules, swarms are completely and utterly useless, is that a good thing to do for say a player like me that has bought several packs for 3 of my armies (they are not exactly cheap to buy neither) and now cannot not use them at all, with current army books.

IMO GW might have just said in 7th please tipex out your swarm entries as they are now no longer legal, this would have been less painful and too be honest less patronising than GW nerfing them wholesale and then not even doing a points revision.
Well boo-fecking-hoo. Your expensive unit is almost useless. Know what, it happens to us all in transition between editions and army books, get over it. I have 6 Bat Swarms gathering dust on a shelf, and I don't care. I have an extra converted Black Coach that I can't use, converted Levy that I can't use, 35 extra Dire Wolves that I don't need, all since GW banned SoC armies in tournaments.

GW can't do point revisions for swarms in the basic rules, of course. Issues like these will be adressed in army books, if adressed at all.
 
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