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Bat Swarms - why would you not?

Banat

Varghulf
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
791
#1
So, bat swarms used to confer that tasty asl but their problem was getting torn down in combat quickly.

New bat swarms however... one of the few scrolls I've seen that has a close combat range of 3".

Five attacks, admittedly only 5+5+ but on causing a SINGLE wound they heal ALL their wounds.

And of course the detriment to opponent shooting which is great.

But that three inch range will allow them to easily attack over a rank if not two ranks of models in front.

I will definitely be testing them out alongside a spirit host or two to see how they compare.
 
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
442
#2
Bat Swarms– I never don't. ;)

Yeah, Bat Swarms were a waste pre-8th, but in 8th the ASL was a nice bonus, and in AoS they are just sick. They can be single units, so you can take a bunch, fly them across the field and just park them about 5-6 inches off of the enemy's shooting units.

If the enemy wants to get away from the bats, they need to run to get more than 12 inches away, and then they're not shooting and the bats have still done their job. Or they charge the bats, in which case they're not shooting and the bats have still done their job.

Has anyone looked at the Rat Swarms in the Skaven list? They are also a unit of 1+ models, and each unit ADDS a swarm base in each of your Hero phases. Take 4 swarm bases as separate units and first turn, you've got 8 swarms (4 2-model units). They will continue to multiply exponentially.

And since AoS armies can be built with any warscrolls, we can include them, and rats are definitely in character for a Vampire Counts army:

 

Banat

Varghulf
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
791
#3
If the enemy wants to get away from the bats, they need to run to get more than 12 inches away, and then they're not shooting and the bats have still done their job. Or they charge the bats, in which case they're not shooting and the bats have still done their job.
This again is further evidence of more advanced and deeper tactics.

Unfortunately shooting is an issue in aos and does need further clarification. There isn't anywhere that says units locked in combat cannot shoot during their shooting phase. So they'd just charge into combat then shoot anyway. Unless I and many others have missed something.

To me its common sense. Of course longbowmen wouldn't be able to knock their arrows and fire when their grappling hand to hand with enemy combatants. Further there's some units that have point blank firing special rules during incoming charge suggesting that firing at point blank in.combat is not something that can be done normally. Skeleton archers have a ranged weapon profile and a cc weapon profile again further suggesting that when a unit capable of shooting is.locked in combatant.just use its cc weapons, not its ranged weapons.

But is just not explicit.
 

Tawg

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
1,132
#4
Wow Rob, where did you even find that short video, do you just have Vampire clips on deck? Ready for any situation :ghost:

This again is further evidence of more advanced and deeper tactics.

Unfortunately shooting is an issue in aos and does need further clarification. There isn't anywhere that says units locked in combat cannot shoot during their shooting phase. So they'd just charge into combat then shoot anyway. Unless I and many others have missed something.

To me its common sense. Of course longbowmen wouldn't be able to knock their arrows and fire when their grappling hand to hand with enemy combatants. Further there's some units that have point blank firing special rules during incoming charge suggesting that firing at point blank in.combat is not something that can be done normally. Skeleton archers have a ranged weapon profile and a cc weapon profile again further suggesting that when a unit capable of shooting is.locked in combatant.just use its cc weapons, not its ranged weapons.

But is just not explicit.
Also Wow, @Banat, triple post of awesome, still using the phone I take it?

I think you're just looking at shooting too hard though, and remembering the past. It doesn't need clarification, it's quite clear. Units like Empire Hangunners' "Steady Aim" rule makes it more than evident that you can shoot while "engaged":

Steady Aim said:
You can add 1 to the hit rolls for an Empire Handgunner in your shooting phase so long as its unit did not move in the preceding movement phase and there are no enemy models within 3" of its unit.
When would this not apply if they were not within the range that defines the Combat Phase.

All having two separate weapon profiles does is tell you weather to use the weapon in the Range phase or the Combat phase, as per declared by the rules. It in no way means you can't use both.

As for the common sense of the game? Firstly, let's point out the common sense would also demand that demons and lizardmen and undead don't exist, if we're drawing from our real world common sense. It's slightly less applicable. However, if you want to alleviate your worries further, just imagine that the size of the figures and the "individual" nature is not nearly as true as it seems.

Just imagine actual generals around a War Table, and the nature of the units that would actually be on the battle doing their work. Perhaps there is a great amount of Give-and-take between their actual position, and with the moments they can etch away from the fierce melee they manage to snap off enough shots to potentially dwindle their attackers numbers.

It makes me sad to see people trying to warp the rules to fit an image that is also entirely constructed. Our experience in the past certainly was that you can't shoot in melee, but there is no reason to apply that to every other game, let alone AoS.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Messages
46
#5
i don't think a unit could shoot while being in melee. i'll give you this exemple:

the Empire handgunners you mentionned earlier want to shoot an ennemy unit, they have to first charge their gun with black powder and ammo, after that they all have to aim in coordination and finally shoot all at once to be usefull (i'm basing this on actual musquet warfare that happenned in our world)

all of this would be impossible to do while a maniac just in front of you wants to hack you apart with his axe, lol

the compromise i would accept is that the range unit can only shoot the ennemy unit that ties it in melee range and the ennemy unit would be treated has being in cover
 
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
442
#6
Unfortunately shooting is an issue in aos and does need further clarification. There isn't anywhere that says units locked in combat cannot shoot during their shooting phase. So they'd just charge into combat then shoot anyway. Unless I and many others have missed something.
Oops, you're right, the archers could still shoot and engage the bat swarms. You can always shoot unless you run or retreat. My point is still valid; if the archers shoot, and charge the bats, they'll at least still be in the Bats' penalty range when they shoot.

Wow Rob, where did you even find that short video, do you just have Vampire clips on deck? Ready for any situation :ghost:
As a matter of fact, yes. :) Here's how Black Coaches look in action:

That link is the whole movie for Vampie Hunter D: Bloodlust, but just watch the opening scene. The rest of it is in Spanish anyway. (It's the only version I could find.)
 

Tawg

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
1,132
#7
i don't think a unit could shoot while being in melee. i'll give you this exemple:

the Empire handgunners you mentionned earlier want to shoot an ennemy unit, they have to first charge their gun with black powder and ammo, after that they all have to aim in coordination and finally shoot all at once to be usefull (i'm basing this on actual musquet warfare that happenned in our world)

all of this would be impossible to do while a maniac just in front of you wants to hack you apart with his axe, lol

the compromise i would accept is that the range unit can only shoot the ennemy unit that ties it in melee range and the ennemy unit would be treated has being in cover
You're missing what I said. Think more abstract, the game isn't as static as our models (Althoughtsome hobbyist do a damn good job of making their models look plenty non-static I will admit :ghost: ). A "Turn" could represent a full hour in the battle, the gunmen might have fully had a chance to reload and have a slight respite between the "maniac just in front of them". There is no reason to assume they simply stand there and take it, we're not fighting like the Brittish (That's a joke about Minutemen vs Brits, btw) we can assume we're using cover moving around, you know, actually in a battle?

I agree, if a person with a gun were within arms distance of a hulking brute with a sword or a dragon or what ever, then shit yeah they'd have a hard time fighting! But nothing implies that is true besides your assumption, and the rules certainly support the opposite regardless. Now, I know there may not be as much "balance" as people like currently, but I think taking away a ranged unit's ability to shoot while "engaged" (A term carried over from previous itterations of the game mind you, there isn't actually such a thing now), it would make their "balance" much worse for them since they are already worse at combat than most dedicated melee units. Besides, they shoot once every two player turns, the melee guys go every turn regardless, so they are throwing their "Good" dice out way more than the weaker ranged unit.

I wish it were easier for people to see this differently than before, rather than trying to apply "logic" to the game where it does not need to be. I mean, if you want to contest stuff like that, then how hard is it for someone playing a full Human army to just say "Well skeletons don't exist logically, so your army is just a pile of bones. GG" there is too many misguided logics you could apply to the game that totally don't need to be, so why try? If you want something closer to "Accurate" to real like situations just play a game based on historyical battles, like any of the Warlord games, (Bolt Action, Etc.).
 

Banat

Varghulf
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
791
#8
Yes but there's logic within context. Within the context.of fantasy, undead are reasonable. There are supporting structures fluffwise that explain why/how they are there, e.g.necromanxy.

I do u understand and appreciate your abstract point t however my interpretation of what the game represents is more literal.

If i understand you correctly, to you, that block of 20 men might actually represent 100, and those five.inches they moved actually represent half a mile/kilometre. As such its reasonable to say that that turn represents a real space lapse of 20 minute or so etc etc.

However to me that unit is 20 men, and those five inches would be more like 50 yards at most. A round of combat to me would represent nothing more than two minutes of frenetic fighting.

However this is simply subjective views and both interpretations are no more or less right than the other.
 
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
24
#10
Shooting may not really be clear, but there is something everyone is not considering, maybe because we are used to being told instead letting rules be inferred.

There is a shooting phase and a combat phase. The handgunners have 3 weapons listed in range and a separate weapon listed for close combat. Even the Empire cannon has a shooting and close combat rule. Cannon for distance and a crew to handle the charges. So it should be inferred that a big meany coming at you hard causes the empire handgunner to drop the gun he can't load quickly and grab his trusty dagger to fend off the Vargulf that wants to eat him.

Do not use ANY Warhammer 8th logic when playing AOS. There are plenty of tactics, synergy and such in the game. Its so different though, people are walking into it thinking they know what to do or what its like because they have played game X.
 

Banat

Varghulf
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
791
#11
I would be worried about the thread getting derailed at this point...

Initially this threadwas going to be a bat swarms vs spirit hosts thread but having spent.more time milling them.over, it is quite clear that they have very different applications.

Bats should be used to suppress enemy fire and as supporting attacks using their great range and rehealing ability.

Spirit hosts our our antishock/anti eliteunit. They should mak make a beeline towards the unit with the highest rend to maximize their ability to ignore it. Units with good armour as well, with their chill grasp.able to inflict mortal wounds regardless.of saves.
 

Tawg

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
1,132
#13
It's funny because "good armor" is almost subjective, what with Lizardmen ignoring -1 Rending or less, Skaven get +1 Armor vs 1 Damage attacks (Spirit host), as well as Skeletons getting +1 Armor vs no Rending (Also Spirit host). I don't know that there are that many "Good" armor saves to make beelines towards, especially when half their attacks will ignore armor anyways (half that hit), but the ones that don't are going to more than likely give bonus to the opponent's save.

I was looking for anything that might interact with them (+1 To Hit, or such), but there is very little. I guess if you got lucky a Spirit Host could set up need to a Damned piece of terrain and sac 1d3 HP for the +1 To Hit, then they'll be chill touching real good!

But yeah, they certainly look quite a bit different from each other.

I also feel like the whole "heal all wounds" on the bats is going to come into play far less than it sounds like, because so far in my experience, close combats are brutal and quick. Unless you really are managing to attack with the bats from the max 3" range, and no one can hit you back somehow, then they'd.. still not do much, but they'd never die if they aren't addressed as an issue!
 

Mc1gamer

Nagash will Rise AGAIN! He's back? Nevermind
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
219
#14
[QUOTE="Do not use ANY Warhammer 8th logic when playing AOS. There are plenty of tactics, synergy and such in the game. Its so different though, people are walking into it thinking they know what to do or what its like because they have played game X.[/QUOTE]

^ This
 
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
283
#15
It's funny because "good armor" is almost subjective, what with Lizardmen ignoring -1 Rending or less, Skaven get +1 Armor vs 1 Damage attacks (Spirit host), as well as Skeletons getting +1 Armor vs no Rending (Also Spirit host). I don't know that there are that many "Good" armor saves to make beelines towards, especially when half their attacks will ignore armor anyways (half that hit), but the ones that don't are going to more than likely give bonus to the opponent's save.

I was looking for anything that might interact with them (+1 To Hit, or such), but there is very little. I guess if you got lucky a Spirit Host could set up need to a Damned piece of terrain and sac 1d3 HP for the +1 To Hit, then they'll be chill touching real good!

But yeah, they certainly look quite a bit different from each other.

I also feel like the whole "heal all wounds" on the bats is going to come into play far less than it sounds like, because so far in my experience, close combats are brutal and quick. Unless you really are managing to attack with the bats from the max 3" range, and no one can hit you back somehow, then they'd.. still not do much, but they'd never die if they aren't addressed as an issue!
On the +1 to hit for spirit hosts there isn't much as you say, but Settra the Imperishable actually gives them +1 to hit with his command ability. Although Ethereal stuff is actually fairly good as standard, which is probably why there is so little that gives them boosts. Oh and Zombie Dragons can give re-rolls to hit if they have a rider.
 
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