Legion of Nagash Black Knights / Special Cav Option

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, so we need to think of a Special option cav unit. We have the light cav with Dark Riders, the specialised / heavy hitting cav with Spectral Cavalry.

I have to admit I'm a little stumped to try and think of a unique idea. We need a unit that is medium / heavy, and perhaps is just plain workhorse of a unit that can multitask, in other words like VC Black Knights.

So, time for brainstorming, any ideas?

---

Pinnacle Knights - 22pts


The macabre knights of Nagashizzar are bound by the same fell sorceries that animate the Pinnacle Guard and are armed with the finest weapons crafted in the dire forges of the Great Necromancer's mighty fortress. Like an unholy tide they storm across the battlefield, a silent host of rotten cavalry, terrifying to behold. They fear neither death nor pain, seeking only to bring them to those who would oppose their lord. Few mortals can look upon the Pinnacle Knights without despairing, and fewer still can resist their ferocious assault.

Pinnacle Knight - M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / L6
Gate Marshal - M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 2 / A 2 / L6
Skeletal Steed - M 8 / WS 2 / BS 0 / S3 / T3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 5

Unit size: 5-20
Weapons and Armour: Hand Weapon, Full Plate.

May choose the following equipment upgrades (costs are per model):
May take one of the following: Barding (+3pts), Scythed Barding (+5pts)
May take one or more of the following: GW (+3 pts), Flail (+3pts), Additional Hand Weapon (+3pts)

One Pinnacle Knight may be upgraded to a Musician for +8 pts
One Pinnacle Knight may be upgraded to Gate Captain for +16 pts
One Pinnacle Knight may be upgraded to a Standard Bearer for +16 pts
May have a magic standard worth up to 50pts

Special Rules
Undead
Wight Blades

Deathly Skill
The Pinnacle Knights are the Deathly outriders of Nagash's host. Their steeds are little more than an extension of their will, and move with but a thought. This leaves the knights free to wield their weapons with both hands, swinging great flails or carving throught the enemy with wicked blades in each hand.
Pinnacle Knights may fight with an additional hand weapon as if they were on foot, this means they gain the +1A if an additional hand weapon is chosen.

Scythed Barding
Barding. When equipped with this Skeletal Steeds gain +1 strength on the charge as if they were armed with spears.

 

[Sephiroth Von Carstein]

Well, Black Knights are essentially Grave Guard on horseback. And Pinnacle Guard are Heavy Wight Infantry. So why not just call them Pinnacle Knights? And make them like Black Knights but with different/more equipment options.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I suppose we could do that, I was just hoping for something a but more unique. One thing I think we shouldn't do though, is give them the insubstantial rule. With the Spectral Cavalry and The Key to Grey Vault I think we have enough options there.

 

[Sephiroth Von Carstein]

Yeah, this army has enough ethereal units. I don't think there'd be any harm in having "boring" cavalry like that. Nearly all armys have a cavalry which is basically just a mounted version of another troop. Although if someone has ideas for a cool alternative, would be something else to consider.

Little things to make them different (brainstorming):
- some kind of "Mark" you can buy for them, relevant to the different Dreadlords (Pinnacle Knights of the Innocence... etc), could give them some kind minor stat increase depending on which one was bought. Could be a cross between Saurus Spawnings & Chaos Marks?
- varied equipment choices, although Lance + Shield is generally pretty dominant

Just a few ideas, I'll post more if anything comes to me.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I think mounted pinnical guard would be fine, just with lances and shields (theres plenty of unique stuff already). If you wanted to make them a bit unique i would give them diffrent weapons to the usual lance and shield, maby flails or great weapons? I think the legion might be getting slightly over packed with special rules.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Yeah that's what I was thinking. I think the best way would be as you all suggested. Just make their options good so they can be adapted to any situation.

So lets have a go:

Pinnacle Knights

I'll leave someone else to think up fluff for once!

Pinnacle Knight - M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / L6
Champion Name? M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 2 / A 2 / L6
Skeletal Steed - M 8 / WS 2 / BS 0 / S3 / T3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 5

Unit size: 5-20
Weapons and Armour: Lance, Hand Weapon, Shield and Heavy Armour

May choose one of the following equipment upgrades (costs are per model):
May take one or both of the following: barding (+3pts), full plate (+3pts)
May take any one of the following: GW (+3 pts), extra HW (+3 pts), flail (+3pts)

One Pinnacle Guard may be upgraded to a Musician for +x pts
One Pinnacle Guard may be upgraded to Gate Captain for +xx pts
One Pinnacle Guard may be upgraded to a Standard Bearer for +xx pts
May have a magic standard worth up to 50pts

Special Rules
Undead
Wight Blades

Always Prepared
As the foremost of Nagash's favoured dead, the Pinnacle Knights are equipped with the best the Legion has to offer, invariably meaning they are equipped to deal with any situation
If the Pinnacle Knights charge and use their lances, in the subsequent rounds of combat (if there is any), the Knights may choose to use any other equipment they may have. Once chosen they must use this for the remainder of the combat.

Ok, so that's the basics, what do we think?

 

[Sephiroth Von Carstein]

I like it, I also like the prospect of painting a Flail "wightbladey".

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

The only problem is a flail only gives you an advantage on the first round of combat so couldn't be used with the special rule, I think they shouldn't have a lance as standard but you can buy it as and equipment option. There isn't a lot of point in extra hand weapons as you cant use them while mounted

I think the barding needs to be 4 points (black knights is) and i think scrap the full plate (unless the foot version can have it or the knights don't get shields) were trying to make medium/heavy cavalry not heavy cavalry we already have the spectral cavalry for that.

Maby call the mounts Dark skelatal steeds (or something simliar) and give them a Ws up as they do lose etherial over black knights.

I'd go champion 16, mus,8, standard 16 on the command

 

[Arion]

Our own unique flair ay...
Ideas:
-Riding Scimitars (Halberd, but mounted, a constant +1str.)
This could be the unique weapon of the army, like RxBs are for DE.

-Scythed Armour:
+1 str on the charge for the horses.

(Atually, both things I'd love to see in a DE army, but meh.)

A question, do we have human cavalry, we should have one ethereal, one Nagashi and one Undead cavalry option.

-For the light cavalry, how about hit and run? A nice rule I would think.

 

[Sephiroth Von Carstein]

Well, all light cavalry have an in-built "hit and run" mechanic, as long as you manage to rally. We do have a human cavalry in the form of Black Riders, riding ahead of the Legion, throwing severed heads at the enemy. I like them.

The scimitars thing would work, however it would make them similar to chaos knights - chaos knights can upgrade their ensorcelled +1 Strength hand weapons to lances if they wish. I like the idea of the scythed armour.

 

[Arion]

Sorry, forgot that we have already done the Black Riders, and that they are human.

Anyway, these attacks wouldn't be magical, like I assume the ensocelled blades are. Plus, these guys will be a little lighter than the obscene Chaos Knights.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, looking at the discussion I think the following:

Remove lances as standard equipment and make them an option for +3pts.
Allow the knights to take two weapon options, so for example flails and additional hand weapons. The above special rule would then work.
I think the option of full plate is fine, Spectral Cav are more specialised than heavy and as long as it is pointed right I don't see a big issue with it. Maybe increase it's cost to +4pts.
I like Arions idea of scythed armour, however it would have to cost more, as normal barding is +3pts, I would say +5pts.

How does that sound?

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

Sounds good,

I also like the idea about the scythed armor, 5pts for it sounds fine. I would go with 4pts for the full plate as with T4, and a 1+ armor save there pretty tough and can be raised back.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, I have updated the first post.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

Why can they buy extra hand weapons as you only get the +1 attack when on foot so they would be pointless.

Also the special rule for Scythed Armour need adding to the first post:

Scythed Armor
When equiped with this Skeletal Steeds gain +1 strength on the charge as if they were armed with spears.

 

[doombunny666]

not a critisicm but always prepared sounds like their boy scouts....

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

Hmmm. I like the idea.
You do need to make the ammenment to the rules for Scythed Barding as CRD said.
However, I would also make a few tweaks:
Firstly, I would remove full Plate armour as an option. These are medium-heavy cavalry, not Chaos Knights.
Secondly, remove the option for 2 Hand weapons for the reason CRD mentioned.
And Last, but by no means least, the special rule. In all honesty, I wouldn't have thir rule at all. Not because I don't like it, it's wonderful, but i'm thinking of this army as a whole. I know we are trying to create a unique and individual army list, but I worry that it's going too much down this route. If you stop and take a look, just see what this army has already: Magic bolt Throwers, Ethereal Cavalry, Severd heads as weapons, A Giant floating WMD, A completely new way of casting magic, a huge number of new characters, a Zombie Launcher. If we keep going this way and adding special rules and units, this will just turn into an army of Gimicks and silly rules, which will be too complex to use for decent games. We need to keep it simple and realistic.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I'm going agree with marcus, having just had a look through the things that are certain and the vampire counts army book the legion has nearly twice as many specialised rules (so not counting rules from the BRB) and it isn't finnished yet theres still the dreadlords and the mounts to come at least.

Maby give allow them to have full Plate but don't give them the shields or the options for lances so there weaponry would all need 2 hands apart from a just a hand weapon. That would make them diffrent as a lot of cavalry now just seems to have lances or spears and shields so making cavalry that has niether of those would make them unique.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Yeah I can see what Marcus is saying about the special rules.......

I have been reviewing some of the rules and perhaps things have gone slightly overboard.

So I think in this instance we should drop the special rule, but still give them access to Full Plate and the Scythed Barding. There is no rule saying they have to be medium knights, they can be used in a heavy role if paid out for, and if someone is willing to pay for the full plate and barding then they I don't see an issue considering how expensive it would be.

How does that sound?

 

[Bishop]

Can' say that I know too many people that DON'T take the barding option when it's available (on normal Black Knights). Also, the costs seem a bit off to me, Black Knight barding costs 4 pts...

 

[doombunny666]

How about a sort of sword and shield cav or mace and shield that way they wont be a heavy choice they are for support on the flanks

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I have reduced the barding slightly as they do not benefit from the insubstantial steed rule.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

Pinnacle Knights

Pinnacle Knight - M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / L6
Champion Name? M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 2 / A 2 / L6
Skeletal Steed - M 8 / WS 2 / BS 0 / S3 / T3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 5

Unit size: 5-20
Weapons and Armour: Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour

May choose the following equipment upgrades (costs are per model):
May take one of the following: Barding (+3pts), Scythed Barding (+5pts)
May take the following: Full Plate (+4pts)
May take any two of the following: GW (+3 pts), flail (+3pts), Spear? (+? pts)

One Pinnacle Knight may be upgraded to a Musician for +8 pts
One Pinnacle Knight may be upgraded to Gate Captain for +16 pts
One Pinnacle Knight may be upgraded to a Standard Bearer for +16 pts
May have a magic standard worth up to 50pts

Special Rules
Undead
Wight Blades

Scythed Armor
When equiped with this Skeletal Steeds gain +1 strength on the charge as if they were armed with spears.

I've lost track a bit of what were disscussing so i suggest these rules. I thought as tomb kings don't use lances and Nagash isn't to far from khemri he may not have lances either. Imo these guys start of about lightish medium cavalry and can be upgraded to heavy cavalry quite easily but can't be made too heavy.

Comments?

 

[doombunny666]

how about this

Cursed Spears-one use only

On any turn they chrage the knights may use their cursed spears these shatter with deadly barbs and fly into many enemies

each succesful hit gives d3 hits instead

not too powerful in my opinion and it adds quite a cruel touch also its a max of 18 hits on a Very lucky Roll for a unit of 5 with a champ so not too deadly

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I like that CRD.

Doombunny, we are trying to stay away from any more special rules.