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Blood Dragon Playtesting Thread

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
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Feb 12, 2008
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27,916
#1
Having found collecting playtesting data all in one thread a bit too confusing, I have decided to create threads for each of the Bloodlines.

In here you should post your experiences using the Bloodline stat changes, powers and optional army lists. You can also post your army lists here for feedback.

Any relevant feedback will be collated in this first post.

[hr]

Feedback:

Blood Dragon's should be forced to challenge / accept challenges.
Should not have Lord option for additional magic level.
Quicksilver power possibly leading to OP combos due to low points, possible solution: Carstein and Lahmian (20), Blood Dragons and Strigoi (30), Necarchs may NOT take this ability. (Note: this costs increase is to offset the power level of the additional attack when combined with other combat related powers, and not to say that certain bloodlines should have better access to such power)
Possibly Strength of Steel is undercosted (needs further testing)
 

Trevy the Great

Vampire Progenitor
True Blood
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Mar 2, 2008
Messages
8,386
#2
Yay! First report.
I played a game with a Blood Dragon list yesterday that did really well. The game was 2,000 points. Here was my list:

Lords and Heroes
Vekarin Banespike - 530 pts.
Blood Dragon Vampire Lord
Abyssal Terror
Quicksilver
Red Fury
Defender
Strength of Steel
Dreadlance
Wristbands of Black Gold

Victarias Banespike – 140 pts.
Blood Dragon Vampiress
Quicksilver
Defender

Aggredias Glorybane – 165
Blood Dragon Vampire – 100
Quicksilver
Defender
Flayed Hauberk

Feremini Mors – 150 pts.
Wight King
Skeletal Steed
Lance
Enchanted Shield
Battle-Standard Bearer

Core
20 Skeletons – 176 pts.
Skeleton Champion
Standard Bearer

20 Skeletons – 176 pts.
Skeleton Champion
Standard Bearer

20 Skeletons – 176 pts.
Skeleton Champion
Standard Bearer

20 Grave Guard – 319 pts.
Great Weapons
Standard Bearer
Castellan
Banner of the Barrows

Special
5 Black Knights – 161 pts.
Standard Bearer – 16
Warbanner

Heh, I just realized that I was 10 points under. Whoops.

I played against a magicless Ogre Army. I didn't get the exact list down but this is what my opponent had:
Ogre Tyrant with a Great Weapon
Ogre Bruiser Battlestandard Bearer with a Cathayan Longsword
9 Bulls with Full Command
10 Ironguts with Full Command
20 Gnoblars with a Groinbiter
4 Leadbelchers
4 Leadbelchers
Gorger

My opponent rolled higher than I for everything in the beginning - table sides, deployment and fist turn. I ended up deploying first and going fisrt. I stayed relatively defensive, my troops anchored around a town square sort of thing (we called it impassable for the sake of sanity, btu it was only like 5" across). I had two of my Skeleton units with Victarias and my Grave Guard on the left side of the terrain, where his Ironguts and Tyrand were and I had Vekarin, Aggredias and the last skeleton unit on my right. Feremini Mors and the Black Knights stood in the middle, ready to charge through the impassable terrain.
My opponent had his Gnoblars and Ironguts on my left, his Bulls and Bruiser on my right and his Leadbelchers on the extremes of each flank.
The game was pretty quick and clean. Well, not really. It went to turn 6 but by that time he had only five models left on the board. I don't really want to recount each detail of what happened, so I'll give you the spark notes of what happened.
Due to some careful positioning, his Ironguts charged one of my Skeleton units, obliterated all but seven and were subsequently countercharged by the Grave Guard and Vekarin. Vekarin was able to kill 3 Ogres all by himself.
A successful cast of Curse of Years from Vekarin considerably helped weaken the Bull unit on my right to the point where the Black Knights and Aggredias, even having suffered unraised casualties from shooting were able to break and run it down.
The Ironguts rallied but were charged again by Vekarin, who was able to kill their Gutlord two and a half times over in a challenge before running the unit off the board (last time, Vekarin had overrun into a unit of Gnoblars who made their Leadership test and challenged Vekarin with the Groinbiter who was then killed 11 times).
Despite losing his steed to an excellent roll with the Leadbelchers, Vekarin was still able to charge the offending unit and decimate three of their number, breaking the last one.
A respectable round of shooting from the other Leadbelcher unit killed all but one Black Knight and wounded Feremini Mors.

So, with that wonderful report, here is my feedback:
-Throughout the entire game my casting went relatively unchallenged. Vekarin was preoccupied for most of the game with keeping a Curse of Years working on the Bull unit than ran undispelled for three turns and did a total of 9 wounds to the unit. My raising from Victarias and Aggredias also ensured that my units never fell below 2-3 models below full strength, despite attempts to dispell my Invocations. While I can attribute a lot of that success to good rolling and a lack of magical defense on my opponent's part, I think that having 6 Power Dice seemed very unBlood Dragony. Maybe I'll play against a more magically-dependent force and see what I think then.
-Quicksilver is an incredibly powerful upgrade. Both of my heroes had 2 Hand Weapons from their Blood Dragon bonuses, and the addition of Quicksilver to that allowed them 5 attacks! Victarias, my least armored hero, tore apart a Gorger nearly single-handed while Aggredias took down several wounds from the Bull unit and take every attack they sent his way with a combination of Weapon Skill 8, a 2+ save and Defender. On Vekarin the power was almost broken, as it allowed him not one, but two extra attacks with Red Fury (auto-hits with the Dreadlance and 2's to wound almost anything allowed me to get 8-10 attacks every turn).
-I don't know why this isn't a rule, but Blood Dragons should be obligated to challenge every turn and have to accept challenges given to them. More than once I found myself not issuing challenges or accepting them with my Skeleton Captains in favor of my Vampires. I think if that was a rule than it might be more fluffy and temper the extreme offensive power of a Blood Dragon.
-I think someone said that Strength of Steel should not be able to be combined with a Lance, and I agree with them. Strength 8 is a pretty obscene number, even from a Vampire Lord. While I took the power mainly to help ensure that there is no chance of Armor Saves against Vekarin's attacks, it could be a little too powerful against some of the more powerful (and expensive!) options out there. I don't think many things, if any, should be able to wound Treemen and Dragons on 2's. It did help out quite a bit when Vekarin lost his flaming magic horsey, though.
-Defender wasn't as cool as I though it was going to be, but I think that is because I has facing an army with a lot of attacks anyway. I think it would be fun against a more man-sized army when I could negate half of the attacks coming my way.
-The Blood Dragon's bonus to Weapon Skill is insane. There was literally nothing in my opponent's army that I wasn't hitting on 3's, and 90% of my opponents models (everything but the heroes, actually) was hitting them on 5's. When coupled with the fact that about half the time they were hitting something all by itself (Vekarin) made it very powerful indeed. Personally, I think WS 8, 5 attack monstrosities who also happen to have a level of magic should cost a little more than 140 points.

My opponent thought that the list was very balanced and that he would like to play against it again (yes, we set-up another game xD). He attributed most of his misfortune to his own army list, bad rolling and me being 'mean.' xD I guess most of the above criticism may stem from a playing a rather unorthodox army, so I'll play against a different one and see how I feel after that.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#3
Yay some feedback! Two more games and you get entered into the draw!

Some interesting points there, though I do agree that perhaps it would be different against a more typical force. OK are quite unusual, so I think you may find things different against other armies.

Quicksilver - I have seen the possible problems of this elsewhere. Looking at the rest of the report it seems that this combined with the Blood Dragon's other combat abilities means that perhaps that power should be dropped, or bumped up in price.

Strength of Steel - Interesting feedback, especially considering it only works in the charge. I wouldn't have thought it was OP, but of course we will wait to see other reports.

WS - Personally I think this is one area we got right. Blood Dragon's are meant to be the best in combat. Again I think that when you face a different army, you should find that you magic is far from potent, and again perhaps it is the quicksliver power adding too much.

Could I ask next time Vekarin that you don't take the Quicksliver power and see how the army plays out then, see if it is more balanced?

Finally, yes the Blood Dragon's should have to challenge.......I'm gobsmacked we missed that.
 

Trevy the Great

Vampire Progenitor
True Blood
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Mar 2, 2008
Messages
8,386
#4
Don't get me wrong, I love Quicksilver. An extra attack? Awesome.
I definitely think that it should at least be bumped up to 25 points to make it a little more exclusive. I will try the army without that ability and see what happens, though.

Edit: Do Blood Dragons still have the option to upgrade to a Level 3 Wizard, because that seems a little contradictory to the fluff?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
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Feb 5, 2009
Messages
2,887
#7
Can't believe that we missed both the challenges and magic level issue!

Oh well, yeah, that's why we need to playtest these lists :tongue:

Strength of Steel combines with a Lance for Str of 8 does seem OP. Paying 10 pts (I think its 10 pts) to upgrade Str 5 to Str 6 on the charge is one thing... the same cost going from Str 7 to Str 8 is another all together!! Maybe it shouldn't be stackable with a Lance (or Flail?). How about Strength of Steel grants +1 Str on the charge (does not stack with other charge bonuses) ?

I think that Quick Silver is okay in the 20-25 point range. I found it no where near as broken on my Carstein Vampires in the games I've been playing thus far. (Maybe add in a different cost for combat bloodlines, and restrictions for non-combat ones). How about: (varable cost) Quick Silver grants +1 attack at the following costs: Carstein and Lahmian (20), Blood Dragons and Strigoi (30), Necarchs may NOT take this ability. (Note: this costs increase is to offset the power level of the additional attack when combined with other combat related powers, and not to say that certain bloodlines should have better access to such power)

Thoughts?
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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Messages
27,916
#8
I think the variable cost works ok, however I am unsure on strength of steel. With it only offering +1S on the charge, if you are limited to what you can combine it with, I think it will not be used. In the previous rules you could combine it with with a lance, so what has changed in this edition to make it OP?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
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#9
So, I went and dug out the 6th VC book...

I noticed that Red Fury (+1 atk) is 30 pts, and that Strength of Steel is 15 pts.

The only thing that stands out to me as a significant difference... under 6th VC rules you were restricted to 100 points (lord) or 50 pts (heroes) in total vampire power and magic items. Under 7th you have double that point allowance, which leaves a lot more room to come up with combos that work very well together.
 
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Messages
104
#10
I don't know but I think the upgrade from str5 - 6 is better then from str 7 - 8, the only time this is helpfull is vs giant monsters with T6 and against heavily armored knights. While str 6 is helpfull vs most infantry, all cavalry and against monsters, so... if you are ok with the str5-6 boost i can't think of a reason wwhy you would think str7-8 is OP
 

Trevy the Great

Vampire Progenitor
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#13
No.
Why would you be able to do that? Bloodline armies still follow normal force selection rules as normal armies.
 
Joined
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Messages
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#14
I mean, can I still use necromancers? Because in my eyes they wouldn't fight alongside mere mages.
 

Trevy the Great

Vampire Progenitor
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Messages
8,386
#15
Oh, I thought you meant have only characters in an army! xD
According to the army list yes, you can take Necromancers. All characters may be taken as normal, but I don't know if this is something that DoN wants to rectify or not.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#17
Currently necromancers are still available. It fits with the fluff that Blood Dragons will leave the maintenance and upkeep of their lesser dead, leaving the warriors to do what they do best.

Of course playtesting could change.
 
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
104
#22
I played a game with the army rules.

It was vs a daemon army with lots of infantry but it wasn't that weak.

Here was his army.

heros:
korne herald with obsidian armour- Gen, on jugger
korne herald with obsidian armour- BSB with +d3 combat res, on jugger
tzeench herald with master of sorcery, fire, scroll
tzeench herald with master of sorcery, beast, scroll

core:
16 bloodletter FC
17 bloodletter std
3X10 horrors
6 furies

special
6 flesh hounds

rare
4 flamers +1 champ
4 flamers +1 champ

My army was this:

Heros and lords:
vampire lord
+1 lvl
unliving legend
horsemaster
strength of steel
quicksilver

blood drinker
book of arkhan

nigthmare

vampire
bsb
vampiric aura
quicksiover

necromancer
scroll
scroll

core
17 skelletons + champ
std
war banner

19 skelletons + champ
std

10 crypt ghouls

5 dire wolves
5 dire wolves

special
3 fell bats
3 fell bats

5 plain black knights

5 blood knights( generals retinue)
std- flag of the blood keep

6 blood knights
std- royal std of strigos

The battle wasn't that close, I won with a crushing victory.



He got the first turn,he moved 4"forward with his big korne units and his magic, he didn't kill anything with all his shooting and magic because of the range. My turn, my units went almost all full distance towards the enemy. LEFT FLANK: My lord unit was not far from his flesh hounds now, they could charge them also on this side were 10 horrors, 5 flamers and 6 furies. CENTER: my infantry with my bsb were here and some fell bats, they faced a korne unit with the bsb. Right flank: 6 blood knights facing another korn unit, the tzeench wizzards were in horror units near the korn unit, the other flamers was in a forest on the other side of the korne unit. On this side were also my fell bats, 5 wolves and the black knights.

The next turn: he didn't charge anything, he moved his korn units forward but not much and his furies moved more toward my general. his flamers moved closer and shot some skelletons on the left side and 3 block knights on the right side. He had some bad luck with his magic and i think i used a scroll in this turn on the beast cowers on my blood knights who could charge the korne units on the right side. My turn: i charged with my fell bats his flamers who came out of a forest on the right side, my blood knights on his korn unit the wolvres in front of the blood knights charged horrors + herald, on the Right side and my dire wolves on the left side charged the horrors, my bsb from the center charged his flamers on the left and my lord unit charged his furies to get away from the flesh hounds. My magic fase was used to raise back dead skelletons without succes.
Left: My bsb killed the champ, won combat no crumble. My wolves vs horrors: he did nothig i did nothing no crumble because of bsb+ aura, my lord unit killed the furies and overran against my well positioned skelletons. Right: 6 blood knights did in total like 10 wounds on the unit and 1 on the hero, he rolled snake eyes on his brake test. my fell bats caused 2 wounds on the flamers, they did the same vs the fell bats so I crumbled 1 wound. The wolves did nothing, he did enough wounds to crumble me to dead.

Turn 3:LEFT he moved his bsb unit forward 5"(marchblocked by my bsb), his flesh hounds charged my 5 remaining wolves. He magiked a bit and killed only another few skelletons and. The war banner unit had like 6 men left the other was full size.
No shooting, combat:flesh hounds killed dire wolves, no overun distance. The blood knights on the right side killed the korn unit. The fell bats were wiped out by the flamers.
I turned my blood knights, the ghouls moved towards the horrors on the left side and got i the way of my blood knights but ready to charge horrors. My 7 skelletons got in the way of my enemys bsb unit and led them away from my lord unit, at this point i forgot to move the necro out of my 2nd skellie unit. my black knights on the right charged horrors with a herald together with fell bats. My blood knights had no target so just got into place to charge 10 horrors with herald( other unit but close to the other one).
I raised a couple of blood knights. I killed the herald of the horror unit. My bsb killed some flamers

His turn, we speeded up because it was nearly time to leave. He charged his blood letters in my 7 skellies killed it and overran in my other skellie unit i dispelled all his magic.His flesh hounds and horrors on the left side moved a bit nothing special, he shot my blood knights with some remaining flamers, no kills. My black knights + fell bats did some wounds on the horrors.
I charged his flesh hounds with my blood knights (lord unit), and his horrors on the left side with my ghouls. My blood knights on the right side killed another unit horrors with a herald, and the black knights + fell bats wiped out his horrors. My lord unit killed the flesh hounds and the ghouls killed the horrors on the left side.
He killed my 2 units skelletons with his bloodletters. We ended wheni had my lord unit +my other blood knights, my fell bats and my ghouls, he had his bsb unit and 3 or 4 flamers.

I thought the list was quite balanced but some members of my club complained that it was OTT because it could win vs deamons. The most OTT thing is the "Unliving legend": it is gamebraking if your opponent counts on you charging his redirecting unit. The solution was that you had to tell your opponent that your character had it before the battle started. They also said that 2 units blood knights was to strong but that is also possible in normal play. If you want to know anything else you can just ask.
 

Pils

Skeleton
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
50
#23
I'd just like to say somthing, the blood dragons in the 6th edition could still be level 3 wizzards, this needs to be kept other wise it can unbalance the number of dispel dice you will get for the points that were spent, instead the rules forced blood dragons to generate one less power dice than normal, which i think is fair seens they get the bonus combat stats and armour.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#24
But this is not the 6th edition. When you buy a basic Vampire Lord now you get a level 2 wizard. If you wanted to upgrade him to level 3 you have to pay an upgrade cost. All we are planning on doing is removing that upgrade, which can't be unbalanced as you can run a vamp lord without it anyway.

Now, is anyone else going to have any games?
 
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