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Bloodlines: Update to 8th Edition (VC Book): Blood Dragons

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#1
Ok then, let's get cracking, by starting with the Blood Dragons.

Usual rules. Changes will be implemented when backed up with relevant justification and agreement with all involved.

The main premise is to take into account the new VC book, not to totally redesign it the Bloodlines.

We will also try to take into account any feedback we got from when the rules were last revised.

[hr]

Current List

Blood Dragon Stat and Basic Changes

+2WS
Generates -1 spell (hero's will only know IoN)
Full Plate Armour plus one of the following:
HW & Shield
Greatweapon
2x HW
Lance & Shield if mounted.

Challenges: Blood Dragons must issue challenges / accept challenges wherever possible.

Mounts: Since Dreadknight is no longer an option, a BD Vampire may take one of the following options:
- Nightmare at +10pts
- Barded Nightmare at +15pts


Bloodline Powers

Strength of Steel - 10pts
Such is the vampire's martial prowess that he is able too strike at the precise moment when it will cause the most carnage.
The Vampire has +1 strength the turn he charges.

Horse Master - 15pts
The bond between this knight and his steed is unbreakable. Such is his example that his fellow knights cannot but help follow him.
If riding a barded mount the model does not suffer the -1 restriction to their movement due to the barding. If in a unit of Knights the benefit is also conferred on the unit.

Defender - 20pts
The warrior can create a wall of glittering steel that none but the most skilled can pass
One model able to strike the vampire looses one attack, which may take the model down to zero attacks.

Honour or Death - 25pts
Many have regretted accepting a challenge from a creature of death.

Any model who issues a challenge that is accepted by a vampire with the above power, or accepts a challenge must take a Ld test at -1, using it's own Ld characteristic. If failed they must act as if they refused a challenge as per the BRB. Does not affect units that are ItP.

Unliving Legend - 45pts
Such are the tales of this vampire, that his mere presence in combat can greatly sway its outcome.
One per army. Any wounds caused by this character will count as 2 wounds for combat resolution purposes. Any unit which loses combat vs. this character, or a unit containing this character, can not claim to be steadfast. (In a challenge the overkill bonus would be capped at 10).

Red Fury - 50pts
As per the VC Book

Master-strike - 55pts
Such are the power of this vampires blows, one strike can tear his foe asunder
The vampire has the Heroic Killing Blow special rule and may re-roll any to wound rolls.

Master of Blades - 100pts
This vampire has trained purely in combat for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and has unmatched in combat save for Abhorash himself....
The vampire has ASF and WS10. He also has I10 whilst in combat only. For every initial attack that causes an unsaved wound he may make TWO additional attacks. However the vampire can never take magical weapons.


Blood Dragon Optional Army List

This list can only be taken if you are using the above stat changes, it is not designed to work with the standard VC bloodline powers. If you are using the below list, you must only choose the units listed below.

New Options

The Blood Dragon General may take a retinue of Blood Knights or Black Knights. The unit costs exactly the same as per the VC book, but does not take up a special slot, and in the case of Blood Knights, do not count towards the 1 per 1000 limitation. If this option is taken, the General and unit cannot willing separate in battle, and if forced to do so must rejoin one another as soon as possible.

Any Blood Dragon Vampire may take a unit of Black Knights as his retinue. They follow the same rules / costs as normal however they are taken as a core choice (that doesn't count towards minimum core). If this option is chosen the vampire cannot willingly separate from them in battle, and if forced to do so must rejoin one another as soon as possible.

Core
Skeletons
Skeleton Veterans (see rules below)
~ Limitation: 1 unit may be taken per Skeleton unit.
Grave Guard
~Limitation: 1 unit may be taken per taken Skeleton unit, however it does not count towards 25% minimum Core.
Dire Wolves
~Does not count towards 25% minimum Core.

Special
Black Knights
Blood Knights
~Limitation:1 unit per 1000pts, excluding Generals retinue if applicable.
Batswarms
Fell Bats
0-1 Spirit Hosts

Rare
Wraiths
Blood Monks


New Units

Skeletal Veterans -10 pts/model

Stat line - M4 - WS3 - BS2 - S3 - T3 - W1 - I3 - A1 - Ld3
Unit Size – 10+

Options:
Normal Skeleton Warrior options as well as the following option:
Halberds +1pt per model

The number of Skeletal Veteran units can not exceed the number of Skeleton Warrior units.

Special Rules:
Undead
Hardened Warriors

Hardened Warriors:
The Blood Dragons' skeletal minions, unlike those of the other bloodlines, sometimes retain some of the skill in arms they possessed as living warriors.
Skeletal Veteran units gain double their normal rank bonus for purposes of determining if Steadfast applies.


Blood Monks - 70pts per model

M6 - WS5 - BS5 - S5 - T4 - W1 - I5 - A2 - Ld7

Unit size: 3-10

Weapons and Armour:
Hands and Feet and Fangs (hand weapon)
Dragon's Bite;
A deadly weapon used exclusively by the Blood Monk order. A heavy tipped spear with a short shaft, to the end of the shaft there is a strong rope which enables a quick retrieval. In the hands of a well trained monk this weapon is just as precise as it is deadly.
Range: 6" , Strength: As user, Quick to fire, Killing Blow.
In addition this weapon is used in combat where it counts as a hand weapon that confers the Killing Blow ability.

Special Rules:

Undead
Vampire
Skirmishers


"Mind your surroundings..."
Through meditation and hard training the monk's mind is so in-tuned with his surroundings it is virtually impossible to catch him off guard. The many years constant and relentless training ensures that Hand to hand combat comes as naturally as breathing
Has ASF. Additionally the monks have a 4+ ward save.

Leaping blood strike
The balance between animalistic feriocity and acrobatic grace of these undead warrior monks goes beyond the capabilities of any mortal.
Blood Monks have the Swiftstrider special rule. Additionally if they charge, all Monks that are in a position to strike make 1 impact hit at their basic strength.

Loyalty to the Clan
Whilst Blood Monks may fight for others they never truly trust them. They are a force apart and will allow only those of their clan to fight by their side
No characters may join Blood Monk units. Additionally Blood Monks may never use another characters leadership for any reason (such as the General) nor may the benefit from the Battle Standard Bearer

Options:

Upgrade one Blood Monk to Abbot for +25pts. The Abbot as +1I, +1A and his Dragon's bite (both ranged and close combat) benefits from the Heroic Killing Blow special rule.[/color]
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#2
Feedback Notes:

Magical defence is poor - possibly somekind of innate ability / balefire effect?
Lack of core choices.
Blood Monks - dies to easily. Possibly reduce points or give them 2 wounds each.
Blood Dragon Powers - are some too good, so that not all will be considering a good option?
Challenges - Too much of a downside, maybe need to limit to enemy characters, champions considered under them? Or a better overkill bonus?
Include Black Knights as core?

Need more variety, very one directional army.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
2,887
#3
Bloodline stat changes:
-1 spell would give a level 1 caster NO spells. Giving them a penalty to cast might be a better option. They can still have spells but due to their focus on martial skills they are less skilled at spell casting.

+2WS. I think that maybe they should have other stats improved to give a better sense of a skilled fighter. Maybe +1 WS, In, and Atk?

Mounts: need to review costs on these compared to new book.

list
Need to review the list of units and choose to include/exclude new units. Review existing choices as well.

Powers
I don't see anything here that stands out as wrong/off...

Core:
Skeleton Veterans - will need to be cheaper due to the cost reduction on base Skeletons. 7 points?
Dire Wolves - counting towards core is fine.

units
Blood Monk - yeah, the look expensive for single wound models. 2 wounds might make them too powerful. Might be worth experimenting with. 75ish pts a model at 2 wounds, or maybe drop them down to 55ish if single wounds.
 
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
75
#4
I agree Black Knights should be a Core choice, if not in the main army list then at least with the Red Duke leading them. I also think they should/could have an option for the Lance formation, at a certain pts increase?

Another idea could be adding more knightly-type units/rules. I'd like to see Blood Knights on foot (like Empire Greatswordsmen) and maybe more of a Bretonnian influence? You could, instead of Bloodline Powers (which may be heresy) have Unholy Virtues? I also think some kind of twisted damsel/vampiric lady would be either a good special character or another Hero slot to add - she could bestow the Unholy Virtues, or simply provide magical support, perhaps with Bound Spells augmenting units/themselves - like an unholy Warrior Priest?

I also wouldn't rule out the possibility of ranged troops - I know this goes against their personal close combat ideals, but they aren't stupid either. I see them as the most 'militaristic' of the Bloodlines - and why shouldn't they be able to raise dead units of archers or crossbowmen? Even if they had BS2, they could still be cheap enough to warrant taking them.

Hell, I'd say let the Skeleton Warriors have Heavy Armour and great weapons as an option (at a suitable pts cost of course). These are Blood Dragons! Not some snivelling librarian or aristocratic despot! :devil2:

I say make them the Elite VC force - the best equipped and the most kick-ass! Whilst being the least numerous, with no Necromancers - they'd have little patience for wanna-be immortals - and would prefer the company of fine, blood-thisty, evil damsels instead...just think of the models you could have :perv:

Do the Bloodknights have Full Platemail? They really should...

...but maybe this is just me xD

The Blood Monks are a cool idea - they seem high-priced to me also and very vulnerable. How do you find skirmishers fair in 8th Edition? With all the Hordes, Monstrous Infantry and massed missile fire people can have I'd imagine tehy wouldn't do too great. Perhaps make them Fast Cavalry or similar to Dark Elf Assassins?
 
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
75
#5
Well, I've been thinking about the Blood Dragons some more and thought of some other ideas. Here's a short breakdown:

Lords: Walach (relatively simple combat beast), The Red Duke (allows lance formation in skeleton bowmen and Blood/Black Knights), Blood Dragon Lord.

Heroes: Named 1, Necromancers, Blood Dragon Vampire, Wight King

Core: Grave Guard (Halberd option), Black Knights (must have barding), Skeleton Bowmen (Bows with Crossbow Upgrade) Skeleton Warriors (Halberd/heavy armour option).

Special: Blood Knights (55pts each - one unit may go on foot, wearing full plate armour, shields and hand weapons for 35pts each), Dire Wolves, Zombies.

Rare: Blood Knights on Barded Hellsteeds (75pts +/- like the twisted version of Pegasus Knights), Hexwraiths, Varghulf.

Other ideas: Some kind of Reliquae or Medieval type Religious Relic? Female Thrall who provides “blessings” – a twisted parody on Bretonnia? Balefire trebuchet?

Just throwing out some ideas to make it a bit more characterful. I think an all cavalry army should be possible (even if it's not strictly viable), as should an elite foot army. I love the idea of Blood Knights on Hell Steeds - just think of the conversion possibilities :happy:
 
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
139
#6
@ Warspawned

I like the enthusiasm, but remember we're not trying to completely revamp the Blood dragons, just modify the existing list for 8th E. That said, I love a lot of your ideas, and would fully support you starting a seperate project dealing with Brettoniafying the Blood Dragons.

I support raising Blood monks to 2 wounds. Don't even know that much of a price hike is necessary, personally.
Don't think that Lords/heroes should be required to challenge champions, only other characters, IMO.
 

The Dread King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
1,897
#7
I could suggest some characters for the blood dragon list:

-Walach and Red Duke (thx warpspawned)
-This sounds ridiculous, but could be used in massive games-Abhorash!
-Bishops (for the blood monks; there could even be archbishops!)
-Some kind of special character monk leader?
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#8
The Dread King said:
I could suggest some characters for the blood dragon list:

-This sounds ridiculous, but could be used in massive games-Abhorash!
I think Abhorash is perfectly valid to be honest, apart from the fact that as far as we know, he has never since the time of Lahmia bothered to lead an army in the first place, which sort of makes him a poor choice. The reasons I say that he is "valid" with conviction is:

1. Abhorash is a 1.st gen Vampire, equal to that of Neferata and Vlad (Vashanesh), so his stats apart from WS/Attacks should be pretty standard. Neither Neferate, nor Vlad had stats in excess of the common Vampire Lord option of the lists they were/are featured in.

2. Although he did slay a dragon and became "stronger" as a result of this, I interpret this as ridding himself of his major weakness more than anything. Zacharies did the same thing, and he certainly didn't stand out above the remaining Necrarchs as far as stats went etc...

3. Take s long, hard look at the Ws 9, Magical Weapon + Red Fury +Quickblood type vampires that we can perfectly well make with our new list. We can already make vampires so potent in melee that they far exceed the likes of Vlad that is is bordering on lunacy from a fluff perspective. Personally, I think a vampire like this IS on par with Abhorash, but this is the problem with the Red Fury mono-builds that melee vampires players choose. But, one has to remember that just because a "Vampire Lord" on par with Vlad/Mannfred etc, is an option, this does not mean that this is somehow your "average" Vampire. Every Lord, special character or not, is supposed to represent an awesomely and unique Vampire Lord, even if the Red Fury mono-build makes the impression that this is not the case... Your "Standard" Vampire Lord would NOT be able able to humiliate someone like Vlad in a fight.

4. Abhorash is really only the only Vampire in any fluff that I've read that actually had the kind of Red Fury/magic weapon/quickblood impact on a battle, and that was when he saved Neferata when Lahmia was besieged in the Nagash Triology books. Besides that, Vampires are described as warriors exceeding humans, but not by so much that it is pointless for a human to fight them. This goes for Choas Lords, Orc Warlords, etc as well, yet the Vampire has for some non-fluff related reason, been assigned a tier of their own, far in excess of what their fluff justifies, to compensate for a "shitty" core section in the list.

So yes, I think Abhorash is perfectly valid, but there also seems to be rules already in place to help re-create a pretty decent version of him in the 8.ed rulebook. In my opinion, the best special characters are those which have a tactical effect on how the army is used, beyond just the fighting potential from stats etc, and it is in this area I perhaps see Abhorash lacking a bit..
 
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