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Can someone give me a TL:DR of the new Undead Legion stuff?

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#1
I don't want to shell out $150 for the new books without knowing what they do.

Cans someone give me the short version of how this release changes my options?

To preface:

I don't want to include any Khemri units in my army. Maybe some skull catapults, suitably converted into rotting Sylvanian catapults. I like the look of Nagash, but will probably build an entirely new army to go with him rather than adapt my existing one.

So given that I don't want to change my current army, are there any changes to the way Vampire Counts operate? Any new magic items, bloodline abilities, lores of magic, etc etc for me to take advantage of?
 

Banat

Varghulf
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
791
#2
There's a whole new lore of magic. Basically imagine "Raise Dead" made into an entire Lore.

If you don't want to use Khemri units (skeleton archers! FINALLY VC WILL HAVE A SHOOTING PHASE!) then yeah I'd suggest taking Bretonnian Longbowmen for the skeleton archers and replacing their heads with skulls. You could take a trebuchet and put some green stuff rot over it, fill the basket with head bits and voila.

If you're not really interested in the fluff then it's probably not worth it. Some new Lords, Vlad and Krell have been updated (Krell is now a Lord), if you take an Undead Legion then you don't suffer crumble from your general dying.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,179
#3
I would not get it for rules alone. Very worth it for the narrative, imo, but not much in terms of rules. No new items or bloodline abilities. General rule changes for vc if you arent taking a ul list are basically as follows -

new lore (rules in spell card pack if you can get it)
morghasts (rules should be in box if you want them)
separate 50%caps for lords and heroes
no crumble if general dies
no caster or lore requirements on general

I'm not sure (am afb), but the last might have odd results of your wight kings getting uppity and stealing command of your army from your vampires, since afaik the general game req of the highest ld character being your general still applies. That can actually be quite fluffy, as wight kings were proud rulers in life, and with the return of nagash and wave of death magic permeating the land, such wights may be awakening and remembering their old ambitions.

if you play an undead legion list, then in addition to the above you can also take tk stuff w/complete transparency between 'undead' and 'nehekaran undead', but lose access to all special characters from both books with the exception of khalida in the tk book. In exchange you gain access to ul special characters. All the ones with new models have their rules in the box, so the only ones youd be missing without the book are vlad and krell, which still use the current models.

pls excuse typos, am on mobile.
 
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Banat

Varghulf
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
791
#4
Wight Kings are only heroes and Vampire Lords have higher Leadership so that shouldn't really be an issue.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#5
Wight Kings are only heroes and Vampire Lords have higher Leadership so that shouldn't really be an issue.
Vampire heroes are LD 7 and WKs are LD 9, so in smaller point games, it would be more likely. However, with the 50% allowance, we may start seeing VLs in 1000 point games...
 
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Banat

Varghulf
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
791
#8
If I'm not taking a Vampire Lord I'm taking a Master Necromancer on LoV anyway =P
 

Banat

Varghulf
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
791
#10
Only LD8 but they are a Lord with Lore of Vampires, whereas the Wight King wouldn't have Lore of Vampires. The General must be the highest LD unit with Lore of Vampires.

With regards to highest leadership if not taking Lore of Vampires, I still don't think a Wight King could end up as general since they're only Heroes. If you've got a WK and a Lord choice then the Lord choice will take it regardless. If you've ONLY got a selection of Heroes, and none of them have Lore of Vampires (wtf are you doing?) THEN the WK might end up as the General.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
171
#11
Technically, Warhammer: Nagash renders that rule non-applicable, even for pure VC armies; not just Undead Legions.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#12
Only LD8 but they are a Lord with Lore of Vampires, whereas the Wight King wouldn't have Lore of Vampires. The General must be the highest LD unit with Lore of Vampires.

With regards to highest leadership if not taking Lore of Vampires, I still don't think a Wight King could end up as general since they're only Heroes. If you've got a WK and a Lord choice then the Lord choice will take it regardless. If you've ONLY got a selection of Heroes, and none of them have Lore of Vampires (wtf are you doing?) THEN the WK might end up as the General.
OOOHH. OOOHH. I have just been promoted to WK and I am now in charge of your army! MUAHAHAHA.

Technically, Warhammer: Nagash renders that rule non-applicable, even for pure VC armies; not just Undead Legions.
That's what I was referring to.

The General doesn't have to be a Lord, it's just the character with the highest LD now; Nagash "mucked" it all up. It's like the MN saying "I am this great wizard and I have raised this army! FEAR ME!" and the WK is like, "Thanks for bringing me back to life and all, but you suck as a general. I'll take it from here."
 

HERO

Wight King
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
434
#14
TLDR:
Everyone marches within 12" of general
Cast bubble Incantation of Desert Winds
Cast bubble VDM
Profit
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#15
So if I'm using a Vampire Counts army from the Vampire Counts book, I can spend 50% on my Lord? And 50% on Heroes? And my general doesn't have to use the Lore of Vampires and has access to a new magic lore?

All these changes are amendments to the existing VC book? Because some of these will really change how I use my army...
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
171
#16
Yes. Yes (well, not both, because there's still core tax). Double yes.

No, these changes are amendments to Warhammer.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#17
Well then, I guess I need this book! Being able to put my Lord on a Dragon and still take a full allowance of magical items at 2,500 will be very, very nice! Guess I know where my next paycheck is going...

EDIT: Is this new lore useful? Would I consider taking it over the Lore of the Vampires? Hoo boy, Lore of Beasts on a Vampire Lord! Look out baby!
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,179
#18
You can get the book, but you won't see any more than you have here, apart from the lore and the special characters, the former you can get cheaper from the spell cards (even from scalpers), and the latter you won't be using.

Well, there's the morghasts as well. As I mentioned earlier, they're available to either Undead Legion or Vampire Counts armies. But the rules for them will be in their box if the special characters are anything to go on, and they're kinda pricey for what they contribute.

Again, I would not advise getting this set for the rules alone. For the narrative, hell yes. Oh, my dark lord of Nagash, yes. But the rules are literally exactly what had already been said in the thread and nothing more. The book doesn't even reprint the rules for the VC and TK units available to Undead Legion lists, just says 'see their respective army books'.

Also, the 50% lord things is for 'end times armies', and whether end times armies become the standard or not is still something only time will tell, and in particular is likely to see considerable variation from one gaming group to another.

All of the other rules changes - no limits on general, no crumble when general dies - may or may not be restricted to 'end times' lists. The book is frustratingly vague, in that it mostly seems to assume that all games will be 'end times' games from here on out, and, again, that's likely to vary from group to group. Some will welcome the return of HeroHammer. Some will not.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#19
Ah, so 'regular' games of Warhammer are unchanged? I'm interested in the background, so I think I'll wind up grabbing the books anyway.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
171
#20
What Malisteen is saying is that is depends on your meta. It seems obvious that GW intend The End Times to be the new standard for Warhammer, but they haven't explicitly said such, and their previous releases lead many to think of this as a campaign. And even if it was declared an official expansion, game groups are free to house rule it.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,179
#21
That. The intent that 'end times' rules replace regular rules generally seems clear, but it's not concretely stated as such, and even if it was that wouldn't necessarily mean all communities would accept it for pick up games (as with the escalation expansion to 40k, where in most places I've been prior permission is considered to be required for lords of war despite the expansion explicitly stating otherwise).
 
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